Why is Jon more popular than Daenerys?

[Hippocras]

Which is why Ned, Robb, Robert, Renly, Balon, Joffrey, etc. are all still alive and have faced zero repercussions for their actions, whereas Dany died way back in the first book ...

Honest to God, though, can this "it's just gender" intellectual laziness ever stop? Can people maybe make some half-assed attempt to actually look at some of the criticisms being discussed? I realize that it takes more effort than to say, "People don't like Dany because she's a girl," but I made an effort to answer the question in good faith with a rundown of my grievances, none of which had anything to do with Dany's vag or Jon's dick, and I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

Dany hate from readers is absolutely all about gender.

We are not talking here about other characters's reactions to Dany or Jon, we are talking about READERS' reactions to Dany or Jon. What happened to characters other than Dany and Jon has nothing to do with it.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Um? The beautiful blonde princess with dragons and magic is less cliched than Jon? I don't think so.

I know some people say that Meereen was exciting and interesting, I find it hard to believe, but geeze, at least Jon is actually in Westeros, where khaleesi it doesn't even look like she will make it there in the next book...talk about detached from the main action....

She's also regressing as a character after choosing to sit in Mereen forever and 'rule'. Her high point was the treachery against the Masters that led to her getting the Unsullied. She was amazing at that point, and the audience was sure she was going to fulfill her promise as a compassionate but conquering heroine. But two (one and 7/8ths, actually, since she finally did something) books later, her idea of ruling is talking to loads of petitioners and constantly obsessing over Daario. Jon's arc was never idle. He was consistently growing.

Jon is about to survive the first attempt on his life.

Dany has already survived three attempts. So where is your logic?

Three attempts on her life that were thwarted without so much as a real scratch. Dany and Tyrion have plot armor so obvious that the color of it should be described in the text. In a world where a slight misstep often leads to death, characters who bumble from one mistake to another with little consequence appear as thin as cardboard and thwart reader investment.

[Queen of Whores]

Yes, because the only reason for a woman to gain a throne is so she can pass along to her son. That's not sexist at all.

Please shut up about this "sexism" you think can be found everywhere here. There has been NO sexism displayed in this thread at all, just people having a reasonable discussion, except those select few who are determined to jump up and down and yell out "oh my god that is so woman-hating, how dare you?!"

[E-Ro]

Dany hate from readers is absolutely all about gender.

We are not talking here about other characters's reactions to Dany or Jon, we are talking about READERS' reactions to Dany or Jon. What happened to characters other than Dany and Jon has nothing to do with it.

No it isn't. Dany has done questionable things that many people are not ok with, screaming "SEXISM" when people dont agree with you makes you look like a clown.

I dislike dany and MANY male characters in the series, get over it.

[PirateVergo]

Dude, that's kind of sexist. I don't like Daenerys but that's not even a reason.

How is that sexist if you can't have a heir there's no point of taking the IT..

Also women does not have the right to sit on the IT by Targ laws.

[Ellfoy]

Dany hate from readers is absolutely all about gender.

We are not talking here about other characters's reactions to Dany or Jon, we are talking about READERS' reactions to Dany or Jon. What happened to characters other than Dany and Jon has nothing to do with it.

Bullshit ! I don't prefer Jon over Dany because he is male ! My favorite chracters are Jon and Sansa (who is not masculine at all). And I know plenty of girls and boys alike who prefer Jon over Dany.

[David Selig]

Please shut up about this "sexism" you think can be found everywhere here. There has been NO sexism displayed in this thread at all, just people having a reasonable discussion, except those select few who are determined to jump up and down and yell out "oh my god that is so woman-hating, how dare you?!"

LOL. The claim was that "Gaining the throne of a huge realm is useless if you don't give birth to a heir." How is that not sexist?

[Modelex]

How is that sexist if you can't have a heir there's no point of taking the IT..

Also women does not have the right to sit on the IT by Targ laws.

Did Robert have a right to sit the IT by ANY law? I don't see anyone asking what the point of him taking the Throne was, or criticizing Stannis' claim which derives from that

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dany hate from readers is absolutely all about gender.

Bullshit. As I said, I (and others) have said here in this very thread that there are several pretty specific reasons why some people might favor Jon over Dany, and they have nothing to do with gender, unless torture and mass crucifixion and incompetent governance are specific to one gender, in which case that's news to me.

Fall back on "it's all about gender" if you want, if you can't come up with a coherent argument against these criticisms. But that doesn't make it true. And as I said before, it goes both ways: There is certainly a contingent of fans who wouldn't support Dany the way they do if she were a male. I've seen them admit as such on this board, and were it not against policy I'd point them out specifically.

[Queen of Whores]

LOL. The claim was that "Gaining the throne of a huge realm is useless if you don't give birth to a heir." How is that not sexist?

They are saying it's pointless because SHE WILL HAVE NO ONE TO PASS HER ROYALTY ONTO! It has nothing to do with her gender.

[PirateVergo]

Did Robert have a right to sit the IT by ANY law? I don't see anyone asking what the point of him taking the Throne was, or criticizing Stannis' claim which derives from that

Robert had targ blood and do not give a fuck about Targaryens law.

Unlike Dany who's so proud of her family and always talk about how she's the last Targ heir.

If Dany isn't an hypocrite she would let a Blackfyre take the IT just like her family would have wanted it to be since the dance of dragons.

[Hippocras]

Please shut up about this "sexism" you think can be found everywhere here. There has been NO sexism displayed in this thread at all, just people having a reasonable discussion, except those select few who are determined to jump up and down and yell out "oh my god that is so woman-hating, how dare you?!"

Sexism is absolutely integral to the issue of Dany hate among readers. It is a key factor in how her actions are judged.

Mistakes are mistakes and Dany has made no more nor less than other characters. Yet they are forgiven, while she is not.

Instead of people disliking a decision she makes and saying "she shouldn't have done that, it was a mistake" she gets labelled "ignorant" "crazy" "inherently incompetent" "mad" "silly" ....the list goes on, all adjectives and labels thrown at women in any position of authority in the real world the moment they make the TINIEST misstep.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They are saying it's pointless because SHE WILL HAVE NO ONE TO PASS HER ROYALTY ONTO! It has nothing to do with her gender.

I'm also pretty sure that we see plenty of male claimants fret about their heirs (e.g. Robb and Stannis; Robert's reign ended in a mess because he left no trueborn heirs). It's not restricted to women.

[Cas Stark]

She's also regressing as a character after choosing to sit in Mereen forever and 'rule'. Her high point was the treachery against the Masters that led to her getting the Unsullied. She was amazing at that point, and the audience was sure she was going to fulfill her promise as a compassionate but conquering heroine. But two (one and 7/8ths, actually, since she finally did something) books later, her idea of ruling is talking to loads of petitioners and constantly obsessing over Daario. Jon's arc was never idle. He was consistently growing.

Three attempts on her life that were thwarted without so much as a real scratch. Dany and Tyrion have plot armor so obvious that the color of it should be described in the text. In a world where a slight misstep often leads to death, characters who bumble from one mistake to another with little consequence appear as thin as cardboard and thwart reader investment.

Here is the thing that I have found so strange about her story, and why I keep saying I don't know what the author is doing with her:

When we meet her, she's totally powerless, thrown into a situation that could easily crush her, married to a foreign war lord where she has nothing in common with him, and sent on the road...but she manages to summon up a well of inner strength and makes it work, instead of looking down on the Dothraki like her brother, she pays attention and while not approving of everything at least understands and respects them, she finds love with her husband. And the author rewards her with death, grief and loss.

But as soon as she starts running wild, going to Astapor, stealing an army, everything begins to turn her way. No matter how many bad decisions she makes, she is rewarded. A random sellsword decides he wants to fuck her, so he turns over the company to her, presto, a new army. She leaves Meereen a mess with a literal riot going on, and she's about to be handed a huge khalisar and probably a navy. The worse she does as a ruler, the worse her decision making, the more mistake she makes, the more rewards she reaps. It's really a strange progression.

A backwards loop, where the less attractive and honorable she becomes the more successful she is. Another reason I started to seriously dislike her.

[Julia Martell]

And how much support would Dany have if she were a guy, doing what she does? A large part of her appeal, especially on the show, is this "girl power rah" schtick. The gender thing runs both ways, and you'd better believe there are people who root for her because she's a girl. The "you're just sexist" argument has always struck me as just a lazy excuse not to have to address the many legitimate criticisms of her. Are there sexist assessments of her, sure. Is "I dislike her more than Jon because I'm pretty sure she's executed at least a few innocent people and tortured people too" a sexist assessment?

Please shut up about this "sexism" you think can be found everywhere here. There has been NO sexism displayed in this thread at all, just people having a reasonable discussion, except those select few who are determined to jump up and down and yell out "oh my god that is so woman-hating, how dare you?!"

It's possible to be a strong critic of Dany and her character/decisions without being misogynistic and horrible, and so far on this thread we've seem to have succeeded. But many people, including on this forum, use Dany and Catlyn hate to express some very nasty opinons about women. Almost every Dany or Cat thread turns into this, and quite a few that have nothing to do with either character.

[E-Ro]

Did Robert have a right to sit the IT by ANY law? I don't see anyone asking what the point of him taking the Throne was, or criticizing Stannis' claim which derives from that

He had a right to sit the throne by the law that says when someone tries to kill you because they are an insane asshole you fuck em up first, and then take their shit.

[Ingelheim]

Sexism is absolutely integral to the issue of Dany hate among readers. It is a key factor in how her actions are judged.

Mistakes are mistakes and Dany has made no more nor less than other characters. Yet they are forgiven, while she is not.

Instead of people disliking a decision she makes and saying "she shouldn't have done that, it was a mistake" she gets labelled "ignorant" "crazy" "inherently incompetent" "mad" "silly" ....the list goes on, all adjectives and labels thrown at women in any position of authority in the real world the moment they make the TINIEST misstep.

That's bullshit. She's done, by far, more mistakes than...I don't know, every single character?

[Modelex]

It's not sexism or morality, it's boredom. When will people just start saying they find Dany chapters boring and thus she is unlikeable? That is the #1 reason, but is lost in the midst of hot button issues like misogyny, crucifixions and what not

If people seriously find Dany's actions this objectionable, I question how they could like any character in this series. And it's also hilarious to see the double standard of "I don't care about Meereen at all, but I care that Dany is ruining it". How does this logic make any sense?

[Cas Stark]

LOL. The claim was that "Gaining the throne of a huge realm is useless if you don't give birth to a heir." How is that not sexist?

Because her dynasty will end with her. Like the Tudor Dynasty ended with Elizabeth I, because she had no heirs. Like in all probability the Baratheon "dynasty" will end because Bob had no lawful heirs either.

You need heirs as a ruler, male or female.

[E-Ro]

Sexism is absolutely integral to the issue of Dany hate among readers. It is a key factor in how her actions are judged.

Mistakes are mistakes and Dany has made no more nor less than other characters. Yet they are forgiven, while she is not.

Instead of people disliking a decision she makes and saying "she shouldn't have done that, it was a mistake" she gets labelled "ignorant" "crazy" "inherently incompetent" "mad" "silly" ....the list goes on, all adjectives and labels thrown at women in any position of authority in the real world the moment they make the TINIEST misstep.

I dislike dany but like Sansa.

there your argument was just destroyed. Now you can quit while your ahead.