G--DK-ND(BBHN)XI

[Red Sun]

:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

I know I never made it to this part of the book. This reads like fanfic to me, very bad fanfic with zero psychological subtility.

[Jaxom 1974]

Come on! It's all part of his master escape plan! But this being TG, the main guy's gotta get his before escaping, right?

[whelp]

QotD:

:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

Nice to know that Terry (BBHN) does not write fantasy and he has extensive knowledge of the human psyche...

Nice to know that Terry (BBNC) is able to contradict himself within a few paragraphs...

Alytha:

Writers like that give Literature a bad name.

In the name of Literature, I demand you withdraw this accusation.

Instead, file a legal process on behalf of the innocent trees cut down so this poorly written excuse of a low-grade sadomasochistic slashfiction could be printed.

[Zadok]

I guess Mord-Sith isn't a career that most parents hope their daughters aspire to. Or does Goodkind take this opportunity to show us what treasonous to self communists they are and have the parents think it's a "great honor" or something.

What happens if a child only has one parent? Does that mean that they can't be a Mord-Sith? Can you substitute a grandfather or something?

So Richard has sex with other women, or is this the only time it happens? Somehow I figured that like Kahlan's near rape there would be plenty of opportunities where Richard COULD have any woman he wanted but would abstain out of his pure love for Kahlan.

[Baeraad]

Somehow I figured that like Kahlan's near rape there would be plenty of opportunities where Richard COULD have any woman he wanted but would abstain out of his pure love for Kahlan.

(*sighs*) You're very perceptive. Let's see, we have all the women whom the Sisters of the Light pays big bundles of cash to bear the child of any wizard, we have the one-nippled lady in BotF, we have Nicci, we have Du Chaillu...

[Zap Rowsdower]

The only reason Martin's getting singled out is because he's an author so far beyond Goodkind's level that his fans are actually jealous of it (fanatical loyalty at its best) and because this is the only site I've ever seen with so much accumulated bashing of Goodkind. Not that I mind the bashing; I shouldn't, considering I joined the site for this very reason and then went on to read Martin as a result. I really had wondered if there was any decent fantasy left to read and I'd been putting off reading Martin because I was scared my expectations wouldn't be met, but now I'm very, very glad that these threads exist since I caved in and found Martin to actually exceed the expectations I'd set.

Wow! The exact same thing happened to me! I remember how apalled I was after reading WFR. I didn't understand how a book that bad could have been published. I was even more horrified when I learned it was a bestseller and had launched a whole series of books about Richard.

"This all has to be some kind of elaborate joke," I told myself. So I started looking online for more information. I eventually discovered the official Goodkind forums and my dismay was multiplied 100 fold. Every website that I went to seemed to shower praise on Goodkind. It almost got to the point where I thought I had been sucked into the Twilight Zone, and everyone on Earth was crazy except for me.

And then on another forum I heard somone mention all the Goodkind bashing on A Song of Ice and Fire. I instantly registered and started posting. I have never looked back.

Also, Goodkind was the author who led me to discover GRRM. When I saw how many people on these boards disliked Goodkind, I reasoned that you must have good taste, so I began to buy/check out all of the books in Martin's series.

[Watcher]

Hello people,

Wow I think I had a break from reality last week. Realizing something was wrong I spent the past weekend using an ancient technique to purge myself of Goodkind’s hold on me. Actually I read Scott Baker’s “The Lies of Locke Lamora†to remind myself what good writing really is. If you haven’t read it yet, there are two threads heaping praise on him.

I’m back to my Goodkind bashing ways and remember that if you stare too long into the Abyss, Goodkind stares back at you.

P.S. If everyone would be so kind and not mention that I was trying to defend Goodkind I’d appreciate it

[theMountainGoat]

You mean Scott Lynch Watcher.

Though R Scott Bakker is good too obviously

[zach]

we have the one-nippled lady in BotF

this is when I quit reading the series. why I made it that far, I'll never know, but that scene when he heals her by stroking her boob or whatever... hilariously bad.

[Elrostar]

And WFR is the not-bad book, right? That's the one that made people decide that they should publish an entire series of this guy's work?

WFT?

Seriously, I'm deeply disturbed. No wonder people may not think it appropriate reading material for children. Or adults. Or... anyone. These quotes of the day are just freaking me out.

So Richard does end up killing that Mord-Sith woman eventually? And turning all the Mord-Sith over to his cause at some point? Because it's ok to have vicious cruel people serving you and torturing others? I am so confused....

[The Wolf Maid]

Er...

[too confused]

...And, and, and.... *brain explodes*

My brain exploded the moment I finished reading.

:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

I know I never made it to this part of the book. This reads like fanfic to me, very bad fanfic with zero psychological subtility.

More like a self-insert Gray Stu and Mary Sue fanfic written for self-gratification.

And I suppose this is a display of the nobility of the human spirit because Richard rose above his mere human limitations and loved the woman who was hurting him? Right.

[Werthead]

I found the response to that statement even more entertaining than the statement itself:

I think Martin made a funny little quip about Goodkind-reading policemen stopping cars with GRRM license plates and suggested that Goodkind and Martin fans generally don't get along (although I know a few who like both, Martin far more naturally). However, compare that to Bakker's markedly more overt dislike ("The only author I'd ever openly bash is Terry Goodkind," and "Ayn Rand is considered a joke in the philosophy field,") and Robert Jordan's unexpectedly robust response to a reader wondering if he and Goodkind had talked about their books to one another ("I have never discussed anything at all with Terry Goodkind. If you think there are similarities between them, I suggest you check the publication dates on the books in question,"), and you come to the conclusion that quite a few other fantasy authors have issues with Goodkind. The best response came from Terry Pratchett, whose entire novel Going Postal is a sustained critique of libertarianism and ripping the piss out of Ayn Rand.

As for Goodkind never criticising other authors: well, his agent ripped into Scott Bakker for absolutely no logical reason at a con last year; Goodkind said that anyone who thought there were similarities between WoT and SoT was not old enough to read his books; and he's basically said that aside from his books, the rest of fantasy is made up of identikit Tolkien clones and he's better than everyone everywhere at everything, including arts, craft and playing the guitar (probably).

[Moosicus]

It would be interesting to see a psychoanalysis of a Mord-Sith as I would imagine the training would turn you into a complete sociopath. Considering what the girls have gone through - being broken by a Mord-Sith, watching their own mothers get tortured to death, then being forced to torture their own fathers to death - one might imagine that the road to good mental health would be a very long one. Yet despite all this, as soon as Richard turns up they all become happy well-adjusted members of his entourage (still with a slight penchant for sadism). Is there anyone here with a background in psychology? I'm sure someone posting here a while ago claimed to have such a background, I just can't recall who it is <snicker>, but I hope that person comes back to give his professional opinion <tee hee>.

[Lightsnake]

I've been thinking...about Wizards Life Fire...why is it better that the wizard dies for another? Doesn't that make them commie scum?

And the whole Mord-Sith thing makes so little sense...most people won't give a flying fuck if they claim to be reformed, these women have done VERY BAD THINGS.

[Moosicus]

That's right, it makes them commie scum. Funny it's never mentioned.

The Mord-Sith have done very bad things, but now they only do those bad things when Richard or Kahlan (and presumably Zedd and any number of others) say its okay, so that makes it good. Simple really.

[Lightsnake]

Hey, Moose...do you realize the true point of Wizard's First Rule? It's about the forbidden love between sorcerous dictators and pedophile rapists. That's the TRUE meaning!

and there are SO many mentions early on of people sacrificing for others, helping others...Like i Stone of Tears, when Zedd blows off the whiny noble woman...Zedd, she's being selfish, this is a good thing!

[Larry.]

As for Goodkind never criticising other authors: well, his agent ripped into Scott Bakker for absolutely no logical reason at a con last year; Goodkind said that anyone who thought there were similarities between WoT and SoT was not old enough to read his books; and he's basically said that aside from his books, the rest of fantasy is made up of identikit Tolkien clones and he's better than everyone everywhere at everything, including arts, craft and playing the guitar (probably).

If you are referring to James Frenkel, that was one of Goodkind's former editors, and it was at last year's WFC in Wisconsin. Ask Stego about that one, as he was there. But the rest is spot-on...and disturbing.

[Elrostar]

It would be interesting to see a psychoanalysis of a Mord-Sith as I would imagine the training would turn you into a complete sociopath. Considering what the girls have gone through - being broken by a Mord-Sith, watching their own mothers get tortured to death, then being forced to torture their own fathers to death - one might imagine that the road to good mental health would be a very long one. Yet despite all this, as soon as Richard turns up they all become happy well-adjusted members of his entourage (still with a slight penchant for sadism). Is there anyone here with a background in psychology? I'm sure someone posting here a while ago claimed to have such a background, I just can't recall who it is <snicker>, but I hope that person comes back to give his professional opinion <tee hee>.

Well why should TG have any sense of realism in his approach to psychology when he avoids it in his dealings with absolutely everything else? I mean, it would be sort of odd for him to bother to have any semblance of realism relating to the psychology of the Mord-Sith when he doesn't seem to care at all about realism for battles or general interpersonal interactions.

Incidentally, do the Mord-Sith really wear tight-fitting red leather, umm, outfits? With parts cut out? Jeebus. This does not exactly make me think that this guy is the most original and creative mind in the history of modern fantasy literature. On the other hand, I guess TG may be right when he says he's not too Tolkien-esque, since Tolkien really wasn't into the whole graphic depictions of sex and violence thing.

Hey, maybe he means that other fantasy authors are clones of Tolkien because they don't the phrase "war wizard outfit" frequently? That does distinguish the Yearded one from pretty much everyone else?

[The Wolf Maid]

The best response came from Terry Pratchett, whose entire novel Going Postal is a sustained critique of libertarianism and ripping the piss out of Ayn Rand.

Terry Pratchett rocks

It would be interesting to see a psychoanalysis of a Mord-Sith as I would imagine the training would turn you into a complete sociopath. Considering what the girls have gone through - being broken by a Mord-Sith, watching their own mothers get tortured to death, then being forced to torture their own fathers to death - one might imagine that the road to good mental health would be a very long one. Yet despite all this, as soon as Richard turns up they all become happy well-adjusted members of his entourage (still with a slight penchant for sadism).

I don't understand how killing your parents turn you into some dominatrix. Psycho, yeah, but dominatrix? It doesn't make sense. With the Unsullied, I realize that killing the puppy was a way to prove that they could kill anyone (and that sentimentality and other emotions) have no sway over them.

[ChaosTheory]

Wow! The exact same thing happened to me! I remember how apalled I was after reading WFR. I didn't understand how a book that bad could have been published. I was even more horrified when I learned it was a bestseller and had launched a whole series of books about Richard.

"This all has to be some kind of elaborate joke," I told myself. So I started looking online for more information. I eventually discovered the official Goodkind forums and my dismay was multiplied 100 fold. Every website that I went to seemed to shower praise on Goodkind. It almost got to the point where I thought I had been sucked into the Twilight Zone, and everyone on Earth was crazy except for me.

And then on another forum I heard somone mention all the Goodkind bashing on A Song of Ice and Fire. I instantly registered and started posting. I have never looked back.

Also, Goodkind was the author who led me to discover GRRM. When I saw how many people on these boards disliked Goodkind, I reasoned that you must have good taste, so I began to buy/check out all of the books in Martin's series.

Me three! So does this mean that there is some good to TG (BBHN) after all??

I have to echo Elrostar's question - I have read many times that WFR was an OK...even good book...but the QotD seem to...well disprove that...don't they? Wait, what am I saying duh! it must be my lack of moral celery (can't be that I am too young that's for sure...and I will be honest and say that I'm not keen on celery)...BTW do we know what the good vegtables are...apart from Richard, Kahlan and the rest obviously?? (Can't believe that this smiley isn't used more often on this thread!)