most dangerous woman in ASOIAF

[LordStoneheart]

AAR doesn't need to be a warrior. Doesn't need to be real at all. Remember, prophecy is a two-edged sword with no hilt. Especially one we hear second hand from a crazy fire woman.

Also, Jon's fulfillment is very, very weak and loose to the interpretation.

[PirateVergo]

Also, Jon's fulfillment is very, very weak and loose to the interpretation.

How is Jon's fulfillment very weak? The only thing he hasn't done is "waking dragons out of stone" so far and it's supposed to happen AFTER his reborn.

Jon's wounds smoking, the salt from Bowen Marsh's tears and Ser Patrek bleeding star.

Martin couldn't make it more obvious, and again if Dany was really meant to be AAR/TPTWP then he had absolutely no reason to make Jon fulfill the prophecy as well.

Azor Ahai has to be a warrior if he is the one who's gonna stop the other, it can't be something as stupid as "Dracarys", no he has to fight by himself and not just rely on a dragon.

Dany cannot do such things.

[No Song so Sweet]

Football analogy (OK, this is the internet, I'll say "American football" (with a grimace)): Dany's like the team that lines up in a power formation and you know what they're going to do, but they do it anyway and you can't stop them. If she is coming in your direction, she's unavoidable and inevitable. You kind of have to win the lottery to get on Arya's hit list; Dany is more of an equal-opportunity devastator. (Potentially, at least; I don't mean to get into the Dany-is-evil/Dany-is-perfect argument.)

You know that nobody outside the US knows how American football works right? Baseball too for that matter :)

I would say the Sand Snakes, Brienne, Lady Stoneheart, Daenerys all for different reasons. In a femme fatale way definitely Taena Merryweather

[LordStoneheart]

Because steam =/= smoke

Because Patrek's sigil was not a "red" star bleeding. It was a blue star with blood on it.

Because Dany fulfilled it before we heard about it, not after. I believe that matters above all, since forward momentum after a prophecy is more obvious.

Also, Melisandre is currently touting Stannis as him, which means that either we're both wrong, she's right, and it's Stannis and not Jon or Dany. Or that Melisandre is wrong, which means that her prophecy in the first place is subject to fallibility.

If Jon is AAR, it would be more obvious, not stretched metaphorically to fit the prophecy that we've heard spoken by someone who gets her prophecies wrong. If Dany is ARR, she does not need to be a warrior (because Mel can be wrong) nor does she need a "sword" (unless the prophecy is literal, in which case Jon definitely does not fit) nor does she have to be a "hero" (because Martin already wanted to subvert two other hero tropes with Ned and Robb, he probably wouldn't play the Messianic hero trope straight either.)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's not what AAR is supposed to be, AAR is a warrior using his lightbringer to slain the others, somethign Dany would never be able to do because well she don't know how to fight.

This is a very weak argument for Dany -or anyone- not being actually dangerous. Mostly Lords also lead their men to battle and order them to fight, or have men to do it in their names. Otherwise, why having the armies? Why don't they solve everything by facing the enemy alone, with one single battle or pulling each other's hair?

[PirateVergo]

Because steam =/= smoke

Because Patrek's sigil was not a "red" star bleeding. It was a blue star with blood on it.

According to Melisandre "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone"

Salt and smoke? Check.

Patrick's star? bleeding Check.

Jon dying in the first place to be reborn as AA? Highly likely to happen since he's obviously not gonna stay dead.

Because Dany fulfilled it before we heard about it, not after. I believe that matters above all, since forward momentum after a prophecy is more obvious.

And that's exactly my point if Dany was really AAR then Martin wouldn't make us doubt with Jon's last chapter.

At the very least Martin doesn't want us to believe that Dany is 100% confirmed as AAR and most likely he is toying with us, Jon is AAR and there's even more evidence than fulfilling the prophecy.

-His is the song of ice and fire, Jon is both Stark and Targaryen.

-In his dreams he was killing the others with a burning sword in his hands.

-Out of every major character Jon is the only one trying to stop the others.

This is a very weak argument for Dany -or anyone- not being actually dangerous. Mostly Lords also lead their men to battle and order them to fight, or have men to do it in their names. Otherwise, why having the armies? Why don't they solve everything by facing the enemy alone, with one single battle or pulling each other's hair?

I wasn't even talking about being dangerous or not, Dany is for sure extremely dangerous with her dragons but that's not what AAR is supposed to be.

Why you guys are trying so hard to deny the fact that AAR was a warrior with a sword killing the others by himself and not just someone who sit behind his men/dragons and give orders?

This is what a hero should be, someone who do the job by himself and not just a battle commander with a massive army.

[Arya Stark Rules]

According to Melisandre "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone"

Salt and smoke? Check.

Patrick's star? bleeding Check.

Jon dying in the first place to be reborn as AA? Highly likely to happen since he's obviously not gonna stay dead.

And that's exactly my point if Dany was really AAR then Martin wouldn't make us doubt with Jon's last chapter.

At the very least Martin doesn't want us to believe that Dany is 100% confirmed as AAR and most likely he is toying with us, Jon is AAR and there's even more evidence than fulfilling the prophecy.

-His is the song of ice and fire, Jon is both Stark and Targaryen.

-In his dreams he was killing the others with a burning sword in his hands.

-Out of every major character Jon is the only one trying to stop the others.

I wasn't even talking about being dangerous or not, Dany is for sure extremely dangerous with her dragons but that's not what AAR is supposed to be.

Why you guys are trying so hard to deny the fact that AAR was a warrior with a sword killing the others by himself and not just someone who sit behind his men/dragons and give orders?

This is what a hero should be, someone who do the job by himself and not just a battle commander with a massive army.

Jon is not the only character in the story...

[PirateVergo]

Jon is not the only character in the story...

Jon is the only major character in the story who is trying to stop the others

[Arya Stark Rules]

Jon is the only major character in the story who is trying to stop the others

Sam is aswell, infact he is the only one that has killed an other. I'm also pretty sure when other character hear about it they will be willing to help if they have the power to do so

[PirateVergo]

Sam is aswell, infact he is the only one that has killed an other. I'm also pretty sure when other character hear about it they will be willing to help if they have the power to do so

1. Sam is under Jon's orders.

2. Sam is not even a major POV unlike Jon/Dany/Tyrion/Arya/Bran/Sansa.

3. Sam doesn't fulfill the AAR prophecy.

[LordStoneheart]

"Because I know the way Martin writes and that makes you all wrong."

Vergo, did you really even read what I wrote? It was all about the infallibility of prophecy, not just showing why Jon's supposed fulfillment is weak (which it is. you didn't even respond to Patrek's star being blue, not red. when the red star bleeds. not when the blue star bleeds.)

But seriously, you can't say Melisandre is correct in her details of the prophecy because she's obviously wrong about Stannis. You can't say Jon is definitely going to fight the Others because of a dream and not Dany, because she also had a dream in which she fights an army of Ice by bathing them in dragon fire. The difference between these dreams? Dany actually has dragons, has used them to kill her enemies, and has rode them. Jon has no flaming sword.

You are entitled to your own opinion. You can believe it's Jon all you want. if that's the way it turns out, I won't cry foul since there's enough evidence pointing that way, even though it's pretty flimsy. But you really should not act like it's fact and tell us we're all wrong about it. Unless you've read the next books, of course.

[Talking Hodor]

My first thought was Cersei. Sure, she can't cook an eagle with a mind or crucify 163 motherfuckers with a sentence or facelessly assassinate someone who's in debt to the Iron Bank, but she's freakin' nuts, like a rabid dog who's broken her leash. Arya, Daenerys, and Melisandre are in possession of their sanity and are therefore restrained. Cersei has no restraints anymore.

[PirateVergo]

It's so hard to discuss with Dany fans because if we listen you guys she's everything in ASOIAF including the younger, more beautiful queen AAR/PTWP the new Aegon the conqueror, the stallion who mounts the world, the savior who break chains like if it's not already enough to be mother of dragons, slayer of lies, bride of fire and daughter of death.

Why this saga isn't called "the song of Daenerys Targaryen"? It would make more sense it's apparently every prophecies are about her.

You can't say Jon is definitely going to fight the Others because of a dream

Jon is definitely going to fight the Others because he is not having wet dreams about Daario Naharis on the other side of the world.

Jon is at the wall, I'll remind you his own words "And now my war begins".

Fighting the others is his duty.

And now you're trying to argue that Danerys who already got her own storyline will come in Westeros become AAR and steal the show by being the hero who defeat the others.

At this point that wouldn't be bad writing but extrem fanboyism from GRRM.

[Nictarion]

Because steam =/= smoke

Because Patrek's sigil was not a "red" star bleeding. It was a blue star with blood on it.

Because Dany fulfilled it before we heard about it, not after. I believe that matters above all, since forward momentum after a prophecy is more obvious.

Also, Melisandre is currently touting Stannis as him, which means that either we're both wrong, she's right, and it's Stannis and not Jon or Dany. Or that Melisandre is wrong, which means that her prophecy in the first place is subject to fallibility.

If Jon is AAR, it would be more obvious, not stretched metaphorically to fit the prophecy that we've heard spoken by someone who gets her prophecies wrong. If Dany is ARR, she does not need to be a warrior (because Mel can be wrong) nor does she need a "sword" (unless the prophecy is literal, in which case Jon definitely does not fit) nor does she have to be a "hero" (because Martin already wanted to subvert two other hero tropes with Ned and Robb, he probably wouldn't play the Messianic hero trope straight either.)

Well said. Until some else literally awakens dragons from stone I will not be convinced Daenerys isn't AA.

There may be a situation where it's more than one person. That's where I could see Jon fitting in.

[Talking Hodor]

An argument could go for Lady Stoneheart. An crazy undead momma out for vengeance in charge of a large insurgent army highly skilled in guerilla tactics. Yeah, the Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters are fucked.

[Nictarion]

Jon is the only major character in the story who is trying to stop the others

So far....

[LordStoneheart]

Vergo, almost literally nothing in that post had to do with what I actually said and you know it. Is your computer screen faulty and you're only seeing certain parts of my comments? It's either that you're just taking a little snippets that you want to respond to and ignoring the rest.

I already said that Dany being AAR does not mean she will be a Messianic hero, or any type of hero. Why do you want AAR to be such a standard fantasy hero? I never said Dany will come to Westeros just to become the hero. I pointed out exactly why the prophecy fits her better, and why your reasons for Jon are just as applicable to her. If Jon dreams of fight an ice army and that points to him being AAR, then you have to also give the same credence to Dany's similar dream.

Besides, Dany being on the other side of the world does not mean she is separate from the story. It's always been her ambition to go to Westeros. Hate Dany all you want, but it's pure bias to think she is not important to the story when GRRM himself has both confirmed that she will make it to Westeros, has called her one of his favorites, and has many spin-offs and plans for House Targaryen. Dany matters, whether you want to slut-shame her about Daario or not.

[No Song so Sweet]

Because steam =/= smoke

Because Patrek's sigil was not a "red" star bleeding. It was a blue star with blood on it.

Because Dany fulfilled it before we heard about it, not after. I believe that matters above all, since forward momentum after a prophecy is more obvious.

Also, Melisandre is currently touting Stannis as him, which means that either we're both wrong, she's right, and it's Stannis and not Jon or Dany. Or that Melisandre is wrong, which means that her prophecy in the first place is subject to fallibility.

If Jon is AAR, it would be more obvious, not stretched metaphorically to fit the prophecy that we've heard spoken by someone who gets her prophecies wrong. If Dany is ARR, she does not need to be a warrior (because Mel can be wrong) nor does she need a "sword" (unless the prophecy is literal, in which case Jon definitely does not fit) nor does she have to be a "hero" (because Martin already wanted to subvert two other hero tropes with Ned and Robb, he probably wouldn't play the Messianic hero trope straight either.)

I also think if R+L=J then Jon is AAR.

Dany has one thing that no other AAR candidate currently has, which is the waking dragons out of stone part. But its the only thing she has. Being a warrior and wielding a flaming sword is really important, it is a trademark of the original Azor Ahai, the previous reincarnation. Do you think that Azor Ahai, who plunged his sword into his Missa Missa to make it flaming, would be reborn as a little girl, his sword would be reinterpreted as a dragon, and his missa missa is drogo? Plus Azor Ahai is just associated with the return of dragons. I really really doubt it. I think Dany is just one of the heads of the dragon and that's it.

On the other hand, Jon would encompass the song of ice and fire bit of the prophecy, where Dany also has no connection.

AAR is also not a "hero" in the sense that he sacrifices his own lover.

[PirateVergo]

Hate Dany all you want, but it's pure bias to think she is not important to the story

I think you are the one who is having a terrible problem with your computer screen I've never said she is not important, i'm against the "Dany is everything in ASOIAF" circlejerk because it is obviously not the case.

Dany is not AAR/PTWP that doesn't make her not important and if you think so you missed a lot of things.

already said that Dany being AAR does not mean she will be a Messianic hero, or any type of hero. Why do you want AAR to be such a standard fantasy hero?

Are you GRRM in disguise? Azor Ahai IS a standart fantasy hero and i'm tired of people denying this based on absolutely nothing.

Lightbringer is a sword, not a dragon, not the nightwatch, it's a sword, Dany does not have lightbringer, Jon is dreaming about it.

I pointed out exactly why the prophecy fits her better

It does not fits her better, Dany is supposed to be AAR since book 1 and she still act the same, if being reborn as AAR only mean "getting dragons" then it's a terrible prophecy Dany is still the same person.

Not to mention that the song of ice and fire is supposed to belong to AAR, Dany has absolutely no ice in her unlike Jon.

. If Jon dreams of fight an ice army and that points to him being AAR, then you have to also give the same credence to Dany's similar dream.

There is a big difference between Daenerys fighting the others and Jon fighting the others with lightbringer.

It's always been her ambition to go to Westeros

Dany's ambition is to go to westeros and conquer it, Jon's ambition is to stop the others.

What make you think she's deserves more than him to be AAR when her purpose as nothing to do with the others unlike Jon's?

[LordStoneheart]

Eggon, She fits Mel's prophecy rather perfectly, more so than Jon since she's accomplished what is actually supposed to be accomplished.

Red Star = Comet that first showed up at Drogo's pyre

Pyre + Tears = salt and smoke

Wake dragons from stone = Waking dragons from stone

Plus, she was actually born on Dragonstone.

My stance is that the above evidence is stronger than the flimsy interpretation that has to be forced for Jon. Do I think she's AAR? More so than Jon. Do I think AAR is the standard fantasy hero? No. Do I think she'll save everyone? It's hard to say but it's likely. The only thing Dany has that's missing is the sword Lightbringer. As far as Ice and Fire go, the HotU told her to drink from the cups of ice and fire, which implies some sort of gain or choice. It makes more sense to me that she gains ice and fire (she's already gained fire, she didn't start out as fire) than simply being born ice and fire.

But if you've read my other comments unlike Mr.StrawmanVergo, you'd see that I've made the case multiple times that prophecy can be wrong. For Jon and Dany both, the prophecy can be wrong or right, and above all we cannot say it is fact that one is over the other. I haven't said that but Vergo has. The only prophecies I actually believe are the ones that have come true, and if we do an analysis of those they are rarely exactly what they say. There may not even be an AAR, which I would be fine with also.

Vergo, you are still just picking apart certain sentences of mine that you think you have a decent response to, so it's wasted effort to respond to you anymore.