El Guapo Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Which one this house would be? Martell? Because the only thing that we have seen with Martell and the Targs is that they want to use them If they wanted to support them then the would had took care of them and they would had helped them. But now Dany has lost even the last Westerosi ally she could had when she spurned Quentyn exactly the same time when there is a Targ(?) who has something to give back to the Martells. The point is that the winner is the one who makes the rules and the laws. So the winner is the one who takes the power. For all we know Daeron could be Aemon's son but still he had the power so he mayde the rules. I am glad to hear you have read the next two books any other spoilers you want to share? Anyway...Yes Martell. The family that offered Dany an army and a marriage to theie eldest son, the end result if successful being That Dany would be Queen and Quentyn the King Consort. And I wasn't only referring to Dany but Aegon as well who it seems that the Martells might end supporting instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I am glad to hear you have read the next two books any other spoilers you want to share? Anyway...Yes Martell. The family that offered Dany an army and a marriage to theie eldest son, the end result if successful being That Dany would be Queen and Quentyn the King Consort. And I wasn't only referring to Dany but Aegon as well who it seems that the Martells might end supporting instead. Ok: Fire and blood was what Jon Connington (if indeed it was him) was offering as well. Or was it? "He comes with sellswords, but no dragons," Prince Doran had told her, the night the raven came. "The Golden Company is the best and largest of the free companies, but ten thousand mercenaries cannot hope to win the Seven Kingdoms. Elia's son... I would weep for joy if some part of my sister had survived, but what proof do we have that this is Aegon?" His voice broke when he said that. "Where are the dragons?" he asked. "Where is Daenerys?" and Arianne knew that he was really saying, "Where is my son?" You are right. I am sure that a father and a sister will overlook his son's and her brother's death because her laughing at his face and will support her because she will give them back hmmm nothing especially since there is someone who may or may not be his nephew her cousin who can make the the next royal family. Yes you are right Dany will be their choice, makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Ok: Fire and blood was what Jon Connington (if indeed it was him) was offering as well. Or was it? "He comes with sellswords, but no dragons," Prince Doran had told her, the night the raven came. "The Golden Company is the best and largest of the free companies, but ten thousand mercenaries cannot hope to win the Seven Kingdoms. Elia's son... I would weep for joy if some part of my sister had survived, but what proof do we have that this is Aegon?" His voice broke when he said that. "Where are the dragons?" he asked. "Where is Daenerys?" and Arianne knew that he was really saying, "Where is my son?" You are right. I am sure that a father and a sister will overlook his son's and her brother's death because her laughing at his face and will support her because she will give them back hmmm nothing especially since there is someone who may or may not be his nephew her cousin who can make the the next royal family. Yes you are right Dany will be their choice, makes sense. What has that have to with I wrote? You said that The Martells were the only Westerosi ally that Dany could have had. Unless if you have read the next two books you have no idea what families in Westeros (if any) will end up supporting her when she arrives. There are more Houses besides House Martell you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 What has that have to with I wrote? You said that The Martells were the only Westerosi ally that Dany could have had. Unless if you have read the next two books you have no idea what families in Westeros (if any) will end up supporting her when she arrives. There are more Houses besides House Martell you know. We are always talking about great houses right? Because; Tyrells and Lannisters have the throne so there is no reason for them to give the throne to her, Stark and Tully (maybe Arryn too?) are debilitated, even if Baratheons were in good shape Stannis would never follow her. So it's only Greyjoys and Martells. However you missed the point. The point is that the claim and the legitimacy are with the one who has the power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foibles Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 What has that have to with I wrote? You said that The Martells were the only Westerosi ally that Dany could have had. Unless if you have read the next two books you have no idea what families in Westeros (if any) will end up supporting her when she arrives. There are more Houses besides House Martell you know. Although we've yet to see which ones will declare for Aegon. The Westerosi don't have the advantage that we have of knowing that Dany will eventually come. For all they know she might have become content with ruling Mereen. Aegon is there and he has Jon Con and the Golden Company, which will likely put aside many lords fear of whether he is real or fake, regardless of which is true. And if they believe him to be Rhaegar's son then they will likely also see his claim being stronger. We are always talking about great houses right? Because; Tyrells and Lannisters have the throne so there is no reason for them to give the throne to her, Stark and Tully (maybe Arryn too?) are debilitated, even if Baratheons were in good shape Stannis would never follow her. So it's only Greyjoys and Martells. However you missed the point. The point is that the claim and the legitimacy are with the one who has the power. The great houses aren't the only ones that can join a Targ claimant. A lesser house could have a lot to gain if they successfully backed a Targ. It's just a matter of whether they think the reward outways the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 We are always talking about great houses right? Because; Tyrells and Lannisters have the throne so there is no reason for them to give the throne to her, Stark and Tully (maybe Arryn too?) are debilitated, even if Baratheons were in good shape Stannis would never follow her. So it's only Greyjoys and Martells. However you missed the point. The point is that the claim and the legitimacy are with the one who has the power. What if Margeary is executed early in the next book? If that happens then all bets are off as to who the Tyrells will support. The Arryns have yet to join the conflict in Westeros . I don't think this is a coincidence. Lots of shit is most likely going to go down in Westeros before Dany even lands so who knows what the political situation will be like at that point. And no I didn't miss the point. Many people have claims to the throne. The ones with the best claims tend to get the most power (though that is not always the case: see Renly vs. Stannis) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The great houses aren't the only ones that can join a Targ claimant. A lesser house could have a lot to gain if they successfully backed a Targ. It's just a matter of whether they think the reward outways the risk. Sure they could but if there isn't a major non great house (like Hightowers, Freys :cool4: , Harlaw, Redwyne, Yronwood etc) they don't matter because they don't have enough power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Sure they could but if there isn't a major non great house (like Hightowers, Freys :cool4: , Harlaw, Redwyne, Yronwood etc) they don't matter because they don't have enough power. Of course the smaller houses matter. They can field thousands of swords. The great houses wouldn't have any power without their bannermen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 No, a Blackfyre would not have a more senior claim than a Targaryen, whether it's Dany or someone else. Namely because, even though they're legitimized, they almost certainly would have been attainted and stripped of their places in the succession, a punishment that would hold up given that they lost the Blackfyre Rebellion. Put it this way: If the Blackfyre claim were that great, Varys and Illyrio wouldn't be parading Young Griff around as Aegon VI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 If Dany doesn't have a claim to the Iron Throne, then neither does Jon or Stannis or anyone that isn't Tommen. He's the sitting King. By the logic put by some, then Sansa, Arya, Rickon and Jon don't have a claim to Winterfell because Robb was overthrown. It's ridiculous. Claims don't work that way. It's a much more complex system than just "Guy in Power." Right. By this logic, Ramsay Bolton is the rightful Lord of Winterfell. But you don't see many readers arguing this. A Targaryen ancestor forged the throne, and everyone who's sat on it so far has claimed descent from a Targ, including Robert Baratheon and his legal children. Even the claimants have claimed it because of their descent from Aegon the Conqueror. You don't see some random Hightower declaring himself king. No, a Blackfyre would not have a more senior claim than a Targaryen, whether it's Dany or someone else. Namely because, even though they're legitimized, they almost certainly would have been attainted and stripped of their places in the succession, a punishment that would hold up given that they lost the Blackfyre Rebellion. Put it this way: If the Blackfyre claim were that great, Varys and Illyrio wouldn't be parading Young Griff around as Aegon VI. Exactly. Even 20 years after Aerys' death, claimants are still basing their claims on Targ descent, whether by conquest or inheritance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Short answer: noLong answer: no, are you kidding?Everyone has "more claim" than Daenyrys. That's what you wanted to hear, right?What I thought before I even read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I do find it funny though that I've found even a small amount of fans support House Blackfyre even though their claim was started through a sword, a love story, and racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in Black Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Winner's keepers. As simple as that. For westeros's sake however I hope that it is someone good who knows how to rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterJack Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 It depens. If Daeron really was a bastard of the Queen, then the Blackfyre descendants really have a stronger claim to the Targaryan family leadership than Dany. But good luck proving that, even if they discover DNA comparaison, it would be some diffucult job to prove since the queen, the king and the queen's lover were sibling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I do find it funny though that I've found even a small amount of fans support House Blackfyre even though their claim was started through a sword, a love story, and racism. A tantrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Hang on, why would Daeron being a bastard make Daemon's claim better? Daemon was a bastard. Fact. Everyone knew that. Daeron was trueborn and as of now we have no reason to think his father Aegon IV thought differently. But even if he was a bastard by Aemon, wouldn't he still be higher than Daemon? Because if Aegon IV died without official issue, Aemon would be next in line, then if there were no other males, Naerys, and then Daena the Defiant. I assume the daughter of the current king comes before the daughter of the previous. So still, the Blackfyre's have no claim and definitely not the 'more rightful' one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterJack Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Hang on, why would Daeron being a bastard make Daemon's claim better? Daemon was a bastard. Fact. Everyone knew that. Daeron was trueborn and as of now we have no reason to think his father Aegon IV thought differently. But even if he was a bastard by Aemon, wouldn't he still be higher than Daemon? Because if Aegon IV died without official issue, Aemon would be next in line, then if there were no other males, Naerys, and then Daena the Defiant. I assume the daughter of the current king comes before the daughter of the previous. So still, the Blackfyre's have no claim and definitely not the 'more rightful' one. Daemon was legetimized and the oldest male child of the late king, if Daeron is Aemon's then Daemon is first in line. A legetimized bastard is a son of the late king > the kingsguard brother of that late king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Where does it say a legitimized bastard supersedes the established line of succession? I thought even legit bastards are put behind the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Daeron wasn't Aemon's son anyway. That was just Blackfyre propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 The ultimate twist will be that Varys actually has proof of Daeron being a bastard, which would make the current line of Targaryens illegitimate, hence, belonging to the Blackfyres, Aegon :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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