Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part IV: ADwD

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I don't think Yezzan's slaves really live good lives. Jorah is also Yezzan's slave, and look how he is treated. The "grotesquerie" do receive special treatment, but even they live in constant fear of displeasing Nurse. Also, sending your "special slaves" to be eaten by lions doesnt strike me .as "nice"

Yeah I agree, i should have said 'nicer than others get treated, but still basically horrible."

:)

[BearQueen87]

I don't think Yezzan's slaves really live good lives. Jorah is also Yezzan's slave, and look how he is treated. The "grotesquerie" do receive special treatment, but even they live in constant fear of displeasing Nurse. Also, sending your "special slaves" to be eaten by lions doesnt strike me .as "nice"

Right. The only reason Tyrion and Penny are spared Jorah's very tragic treatment is because they play along. When Jorah dares resist his collar, he is beaten nightly. And Yezzan wasn't overly fond of sending his new toys to be eaten by lions, but did it anyway.

[SeanF]

I'm not commenting on Yezzan's treatment of his slaves - which is pretty poor, as it happens. More, that he seems to think it's possible to come to terms with Dany.

[Mladen]

Not to beat a dead horse, but there is evidence that Dany has tried to learn about the so-called Usurper, and about RR, but every time she has the opportunity of learning, something always happens. Personally, I think that this is intentional on GRRM's part.

This unambiguously shows that Dany is very capable of learning the truth of what occurred.

I will be dealing with this before I move to the next chapter.

First, this is not beating the dead horse. This is by far the best justification for Dany not knowibg some things. I use it quite usually faced with idiotic hatred. Now, this is the case and I think that GRRM is setting for either dramatic awakening or even problematic struggle between truth and what she knew. I have zero doubts when it comes to belief that Dany is able to accept the truth. My fear is that she might never do it. But even that fear is rather small.

[Parwan]

I always had this impression too. Some of the examples are very clear, like the one you quoted. I wonder how long this will continue (I'm in denial that Barristan will die, if only because I like him :P) Of course, we also have the examples of situations where discussing Aerys is the last thing on Danys mind (Jorahs dismissal)

I will be dealing with this before I move to the next chapter.

First, this is not beating the dead horse. This is by far the best justification for Dany not knowibg some things. I use it quite usually faced with idiotic hatred. Now, this is the case and I think that GRRM is setting for either dramatic awakening or even problematic struggle between truth and what she knew. I have zero doubts when it comes to belief that Dany is able to accept the truth. My fear is that she might never do it. But even that fear is rather small.

It is intentional on GRRM's part. We see this "something always happens" and other "curve ball" techniques pretty often in ASoIaF. The author brings us to what seems a crucial point, then there is a major interruption, and things go off in a different direction. Joffrey tells the Hound to hit Sansa; Dontos interrupts and acts the buffoon. Tyrion gives Cat a little info on the things her beloved Lord Baelish has been saying about his sexual adventures with her and her sister. He is just about to show her how silly LF's story about the knife is. Catelyn is starting to see that the Imp is making good points. At that very moment, the mountain tribesmen attack. Martin likes to keep things uncertain. He produces a good many anomalous characters and situations. The "something always happens" thing is one of his methods.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Hmm I made a post I wonder what happened to it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Hmm I made a post I wonder what happened to it.

really? was it a naughty or personalized post that got removed?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

really? was it a naughty or personalized post that got removed?

I think it was the day the website went down

It was a response to Bearqeen's analysis

[HexMachina]

I think it was the day the website went down

It was a response to Bearqeen's analysis

Yes, the boards were reset i think, so we lost around 12 hours of.posts

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Yes, the boards were reset i think, so we lost around 12 hours of.posts

Ouch, than I have to make my post again.

[HexMachina]

Ouch, than I have to make my post again.

Try asking Cade, he/she had MoIaF's post saved, maybe they have yours too?

[Parwan]

Parwan,

There do seem to be some Slavers (like the Yellow Whale) who believe that peaceful co-existence with Meereen is possible, so long as freedom is strictly confined to that city. Hizdahr at least, seems to think that he can grab economic opportunities out of emancipation. Perhaps, they're just politically naive. Dany hates the peace deal she makes, and would surely find it sickening to return runaway slaves to neighbouring cities, and to see the Great Masters resume slave trading, through agents in those cities.

The rulers of Volantis and New Ghis, OTOH, seem to be completely ideologically committed to slavery, and determined to stamp out any hint of freedom. they may also (tying in with your point about the Unsullied) see an opportunity to colonise Slavers Bay.

1. Maybe she hasn't stopped it completely, but it is damaged enough that Qarth is sending an envoy and complaining. Plus we have Tyrion and Quentyn's chapters from Volantis.

Quentyn 1

'That gave the Captain pause. "I am no stranger to Meereen. I could find the city again, aye.....but why? There are no slaves to be had in Meereen, no profit to be found there. The Silver Queen has put an end to that.'

So I mean, she has stopped the slave trade enough that it affects every port city in Essos practically. And that is an incredible feat, to affect the whole world, even for a short period of time.

2. I really couldnt say what will happen to SB if Dany and her forces leave all of a sudden. I do not think it will bode well for the freedmen and former slaves.

...

It is possible that the Hizdahr and the Yellow Whale are politically naive. Qarth sent a representative to Daenerys Targaryen in part because the slave trade was damaged, but only in part. These are not the only points I'm making. In fact, they aren't the most important points. There are a good many anomalous characters and situations here, and elsewhere in ASoIaF. The situation in and around SB has become quite dynamic and hard to predict. Cade's comment that "She became the threat of a good example, a symbol to the millions enslaved and therefore an existential threat to the slaver alliance that encircled her for thousands of miles." should be remembered.

Dany is often referred to as a revolutionary by her fans. There's something to that, but I say that it is an anomalous something--a revolutionary monarch. True social revolutions are hard to control, and the Targaryen forces in Essos have not shown themselves to be good at controlling matters. Those who begin revolutions very often are not the same people who end them. Some people in the story appear to have an insight into these facts. Dany and her lieutenants are not in this group of people. This is not just a matter of idealogical commitment on the part of some rulers. I'll mention two issues here, a sort of preview of coming attractions: 1. The red priests of Volantis see themselves as Dany's friends. it's not clear that she will see herself as their friend. 2. The leaders of the various slave cities don't love each other. Depending on how things develop, they could wind up at each other's throats.

The captain in the quote above says that there are no slaves to be had in Meereen. That is not entirely true. It certainly isn't the case that there is no profit to be had there. For very bold individuals, those willing to face significant danger, the opportunities for profit are considerable.

A quick departure by Dany would not bode well for the friends she would leave behind. That does not mean that things would go back to the way they were--not in SB, and certainly not in Essos generally. I think that a full return to the status quo is extremely unlikely. Winners and losers could include both former masters and former slaves.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It is possible that the Hizdahr and the Yellow Whale are politically naive. Qarth sent a representative to Daenerys Targaryen in part because the slave trade was damaged, but only in part. These are not the only points I'm making. In fact, they aren't the most important points. There are a good many anomalous characters and situations here, and elsewhere in ASoIaF. The situation in and around SB has become quite dynamic and hard to predict. Cade's comment that "She became the threat of a good example, a symbol to the millions enslaved and therefore an existential threat to the slaver alliance that encircled her for thousands of miles." should be remembered.

Dany is often referred to as a revolutionary by her fans. There's something to that, but I say that it is an anomalous something--a revolutionary monarch. True social revolutions are hard to control, and the Targaryen forces in Essos have not shown themselves to be good at controlling matters. Those who begin revolutions very often are not the same people who end them. Some people in the story appear to have an insight into these facts. Dany and her lieutenants are not in this group of people. This is not just a matter of idealogical commitment on the part of some rulers. I'll mention two issues here, a sort of preview of coming attractions: 1. The red priests of Volantis see themselves as Dany's friends. it's not clear that she will see herself as their friend. 2. The leaders of the various slave cities don't love each other. Depending on how things develop, they could wind up at each other's throats.

The captain in the quote above says that there are no slaves to be had in Meereen. That is not entirely true. It certainly isn't the case that there is no profit to be had there. For very bold individuals, those willing to face significant danger, the opportunities for profit are considerable.

A quick departure by Dany would not bode well for the friends she would leave behind. That does not mean that things would go back to the way they were--not in SB, and certainly not in Essos generally. I think that a full return to the status quo is extremely unlikely. Winners and losers could include both former masters and former slaves.

I agree with most all you are saying of course, but;

Even if there is in fact some profit to be made in Meereen (known to us who can see all sides) the general consensus in slaver cities, around Essos, is that Dany has stopped the slave trade and that it is dangerous to even try to go to Meereen right now.

My point is that the word is spreading that the slave trade is broken, so Dany's revolution (or whatever) is making waves and to some extent stopping the buying and selling of humans, which is what she wanted, so that's great.

[cade]

Try asking Cade, he/she had MoIaF's post saved, maybe they have yours too?

Sadly no, the page I had open when noticing the forum crashed only went as far as SeanF's post.

[Parwan]

I agree with most all you are saying of course, but;

Even if there is in fact some profit to be made in Meereen (known to us who can see all sides) the general consensus in slaver cities, around Essos, is that Dany has stopped the slave trade and that it is dangerous to even try to go to Meereen right now.

My point is that the word is spreading that the slave trade is broken, so Dany's revolution (or whatever) is making waves and to some extent stopping the buying and selling of humans, which is what she wanted, so that's great.

Okay, these are matters for future discussion. In upcoming chapters, various characters comment on Dany, slaves, and slavery. There are also more developments in the slave trade.

[cade]

That's a good point. There has been a lot of debate about the status of slavery in and around Meereen. Some readers have gone so far as to say that slaves are as bad off, or even worse off, than before Dany freed them. These people claim that slaves are selling themselves back into slavery. I see no textual support for these assertions. As far as I can tell, there is not one confirmed example of a former slave willingly selling himself or herself back into slavery. On the other hand, Dany retains the passionate support of her freedmen. (More about the scene on the riverside below.)

Overall, the essence of the matter appears to be this: Many posters think that Dany's antislavery efforts have accomplished little or nothing. A sizable number of said posters maintain that it is hypocrisy on her part anyway. She only works against slavery when such work benefits her. However, no former slaves hold these opinions. They think Dany is a great person who has done great work.

It's disturbing the degree to which people discount the actual opinions of freed slaves and then claim to speak for them and know what's best for them. Sadly, this is very true to history.

People cite the dead of Astapor as proof that Dany only made things worse, but we have no idea how many of those freed had come to believe, as Frederick Douglas preached, "Better even die free, than to live slaves." And more may have been slaughtered making just one or two batches of Unsullied in that hellhole.

We do hear from a Yunkish slave who likes being owned, so I don't doubt there were such people freed by Dany, just nowhere near to the degree that is widely claimed. We'll also get indications that some freed slaves turned against Dany, but I don't want to get ahead of the re-read. Overall I think she's acted according to the overwhelming majority will of the people, even against her self-interest.

Parwan,

There do seem to be some Slavers (like the Yellow Whale) who believe that peaceful co-existence with Meereen is possible, so long as freedom is strictly confined to that city. Hizdahr at least, seems to think that he can grab economic opportunities out of emancipation. Perhaps, they're just politically naive. Dany hates the peace deal she makes, and would surely find it sickening to return runaway slaves to neighbouring cities, and to see the Great Masters resume slave trading, through agents in those cities.

The rulers of Volantis and New Ghis, OTOH, seem to be completely ideologically committed to slavery, and determined to stamp out any hint of freedom. they may also (tying in with your point about the Unsullied) see an opportunity to colonise Slavers Bay.

Yes, I think they were sincere but naive and in the minority. Will wait till we reach the relevant chapter to say more.

[Mladen]

And now I move to Daenerys III and analysis BearQueen has written... Nice job, BQ

But I have something to say before I move to the chapter. It came to my attention that analyzers sometimes omit some pieces of the chapter that may put Dany in a bad light. The Mysterious One forgot the Usurper's dogs in Dany II, and we have Xaro's friend missing from analysis of Dany III. This thread, which simply is created by the people with positive view on Dany, has the right to focus on the positive, but I am afraid it is a bit counter-productive. Especially, as I have said before, that this thread has brain trust capable of dealing with such arguments. But, if these occurrences are actually a pattern, then I imagine it is a problem that needs to be solved. To put Daenerys in a more positive light, there is no need to close an eye to these things (especially since in ADWD, there are too many things we will have to close the eyes to) but deal with them with arguments and text proofs. Even in this case, I have read some rather great and far superior arguments that would benefit Daenerys' image, and put an end to "she is enforcing slavery again" stories. So, in conclusion, I am afraid that these omissions, if intentional, are doing disservice to this thread, because one can interpret it as someone's inability to deal with those issues. A view I wholeheartedly believe is wrong. Now, back to the chapter.

Regarding Xaro... I generally don't see him as "crying baby" as someone argued here and he is far from being a "baby". His tears, his voice, all of that is part of the game he plays, somewhat it can be compared to Varys, but Varys is more successful. Xaro's voice is the voice of hypocrisy, malice and even gross underestimation of the person he speaks to, Daenerys in this case. He is far from helpless, sad, emotional creature he wants to present himself and below those layers, there is a dangerous mind with ability to twist and twirl to get what he wants. I agree with MOIAF that he is such disgusting character, but there is a sense that everyone in Essos for some reason are like that.

The gift Xaro offered to Daenerys is nothing and it is even idiotic to think she would actually agree on that. But, the gift does bring some sort of good PR for Xaro and Qarth. Look at it this way. They came to Daenerys, this Valyrian princess who wants to conquer Westeros and who has no ties to Slaver's Bay and offered her the peace in form of the ships, safe passage etc... Regardless of the fact that it isn't enough, Qarth can easily say to their allies that they offered something to Daenerys, that they offered her a way home, and that she chose war. Needless to say that the POV they would argue is more than wrong, but it also shows that the war is solely their own responsibility. Basically, they would push that Dany led SB into a war, but the fact is that they were preparing for it even before Xaro came.

Should I stay or should I go? This is the real question and it is a Sophie's choice of Daenerys. She simply can't leave the people she freed and she can't just turn the new page and move to Westeros. She changed Slaver's Bay, made systemic changes that now needs to uphold. She is well-aware of what going to Westeros now means. I recognize this as sign of maturity in Daenerys. Westeros is idealized, it is a dream she has, something unattainable, but nonetheless important to her. Meereen is there, real as it can be, with real issues she needs to solve. This is one of those times where reality trumps dreams, and where Daenerys shows maturity and dedication to the change. I applaud that, not because it was the tough choice, but because it is the right choice. It is pretty much the case Aemon spoke about in AGOT. And Dany, as Jon said Ned would have done, did the right thing.

The conversation with Xaro goes in many directions, and somehow Xaro, in a way outsmarts her each time. It is not that she is stupider than him, Dany just lacks eloquence to put her thoughts in clever words. She loses this debate time after time, and what she says is sometimes in such contrition with that she thinks that there can be only one conclusion: that she is playing the stupid girl card very well. But the problem is that Xaro even penetrated her thoughts with his words. OK, we can take her reason for not freeing Xaro's slave whether it is the reason she thought - she was powerless, or the one she said to him - that she thought that his slaves are well treated and of no need of freedom (this line is excruciatingly annoying, because even though her thought did contrive that, we know that it is not a complete lie). The philosophy of Xaro is something one can mistakenly take as the pro-slave speech made by Martin. But, for me, this speech is on the meta level is about something else. Xaro speaks in terms of Qarth and slavery that is enforced there, but the clear message of Martin is that every great civilization lies on the back of millions of those who build it. Those who build the empires are not the Kings, Emperors, Tsars or Sultans. Millions of nameless people are behind those whom history remembers. We may not hear about them on our history classes, but they built many of the things we connect one individual to. So, for me, on meta level, this wasn't the pro-slavery speech, but the speech about what truly builds an empire. And it certainly isn't one person, regardless whether it is Young Wolf, Dragon Queen or anyone else.

But the biggest failing of Daenerys in this chapter is the Xaro's merchant friend case. The liar such as Xaro could have easily invented the merchant, but Daenerys' blushing, lack of response and then "buy him then" outburst is a tough thing to swallow. This case, invented or not, simply shows the difficulties of the changes Dany wants to enforce. But it is not just that. It shows how the ruler is powerless without those bricks Xaro spoke. Daenerys who is changing the system almost all by herself in a city where she finds fierce resistance will have a tough time in succeeding. It's not something we can blame her for, but her outburst, her admit of defeat in her thoughts (here unlike in the case of freeing Xaro's slaves doesn't exist the difference between what she says and what she thinks) is something we can't easily discard.

This chapter is yet another where Dany's actions are presented in no win fashion. She is starting to become Antigone of Meereen, where no matter what she does, will end up as some sort of failings. Closing the dragons, Shavepate and torture of innocents, and now peace offer and rejection with this case and her outburst show us that Dany is dealing with a lot of things and that the situation in Meereen is far from simple and easily solved.

[PatrickStormborn]

Mladen, I don't really think people are omitting details to present Dany in a more positive light... If anything, I imagine most of us are tired of having the same arguments about the same things. In this case, Dany's views on Ned Stark and whether Xaro is right about slavery.

I agree that these need to be addressed... but similarly I don't think either necessarily reflect badly on Dany anyway - there are much worse things that have been covered in this thread, such as the torture of the wineseller's daughters. Dany's comments on Ned Stark are about how Dany blames herself for the death of Hazzea, which is why I hate that it's become a discussion about how "wrong" she is to hate Ned. Who cares if she hates Ned, if she obviously hates herself too?

[Mladen]

Mladen, I don't really think people are omitting details to present Dany in a more positive light... If anything, I imagine most of us are tired of having the same arguments about the same things. In this case, Dany's views on Ned Stark and whether Xaro is right about slavery.

I agree that these need to be addressed... but similarly I don't think either necessarily reflect badly on Dany anyway - there are much worse things that have been covered in this thread, such as the torture of the wineseller's daughters. Dany's comments on Ned Stark are about how Dany blames herself for the death of Hazzea, which is why I hate that it's become a discussion about how "wrong" she is to hate Ned. Who cares if she hates Ned, if she obviously hates herself too?

Patrick, that is why I raised my suspicion in the questioning, not accusatory mode. I simply noticed something that might be problematic and wanted to see whether it is just coincidence or intentional. In my opinion, as someone who has quite the background with Sansa threads, I know how people can be tired of arguing exactly the same thing. And I know what things have been covered and which weren't. I just wanted to make sure that there is no foul play and that this is just a coincidence... Better to do it like this, then to have people discuss what this thread omitted in blindside attacks over the board.

[SeanF]

Mladen,

I don't doubt there are people who were made destitute in the Sack who are having to survive by performing manual labour. I think Xaro's charge hits home, because Dany feels responsible for the economic mess that Meereen is in. I don't take it as evidence that Dany has been caught out as a hypocrite, keeping some of the population as public slaves, while claiming to be an abolitionist.