jon rhaegar stark Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I hate to be one of those "Martin wouldn't write that" speakers, but when he's giving interviews basically saying he's not in this for writing traditional heroes it is really hard to think Jon is the Chosen One. And as always, I advocate not trusting Melony completely. She thinks it's Stannis, as of now. She is more than capable of being wrong. I'm glad to see you still think you're the one writing the books. It is not at all a fact that Lightbringer is a sword, and considering the metaphorical nature of most of the prophecies it's most likely not a sword. If you're going to blindly trust prophecy in this series you have to do it right. Actually i hate , jon is cliche Daenarys is cliche jon and Daenarys is cliche arguments and martin wont write that arguments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I hate to be one of those "Martin wouldn't write that" speakers, but when he's giving interviews basically saying he's not in this for writing traditional heroes it is really hard to think Jon is the Chosen One. And as always, I advocate not trusting Melony completely. She thinks it's Stannis, as of now. She is more than capable of being wrong. She can be wrong. Her visions are not. In any case, she doesn't think AAR is Jon at all, she simply thinks that R'hollor won't show her the vision she is seeking. And Martin isn't the trope-smashing ground breaker that some people claim he is. He has plenty of stereotypical fantasy clichés all throughout his books...he's just made them more interesting to read than your typical fantasy author has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 She can be wrong.Her visions are not. But we never saw a vision of AAR or the real text of the prophecy. We have only her word about when/where/how AA will be reborn, and it changes each time to accommodate what's going on. Paper Waver did a good post about that somewhere. It's clear Melony is not credible with the AAR nonsense. Actually i hate , jon is cliche Daenarys is cliche jon and Daenarys is cliche arguments and martin wont write that arguments I never said Jon is a cliche. I often advocate that he isn't. But he is a more common trope than Dany is, and I'm basing my "Martin won't write that" statement on his actual words. He is not a big fan of capital H Heroes. Have you read any of his other works? He rarely invokes the Monomythic hero trope, and making Jon a clear cut AAR would be doing just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 If Jon is indeed AA, who do you think will be his Nissa Nissa? Melisandre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 She can be wrong.Her visions are not.And Martin isn't the trope-smashing ground breaker that some people claim he is. He has plenty of stereotypical fantasy clichés all throughout his books...he's just made them more interesting to read than your typical fantasy author has.As I have always said, you can only be so "new" before you enter an entirely different genre. There are plenty of cliche's and contradictions (in terms of what readers see) in aSoIaF. I also tend to believe that you can take an old idea, clean it and make it new. Or as you say, make it more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 But we never saw a vision of AAR or the real text of the prophecy. We have only her word about when/where/how AA will be reborn, and it changes each time to accommodate what's going on. Paper Waver did a good post about that somewhere. It's clear Melony is not credible with the AAR nonsense. Uh, we have the real text of the prophecy. Melisandre didn't come up with this prophecy- Thoros also knows of the prophecy, as does Salladhor Saan. Even Aemon knows about Lightbringer, and he even has a book about it and Azor Ahai, as well. It's obviously a well-known and longstanding prophecy to the followers of R'hollor, which is probably why Melisandre went out to seek AAR. Melisandre's flames show the truth...she simply misinterprets it. Just as she did with the vision of Jon when she asks to see AAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naseridrl Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I've never been very into the AAR stuff, the idea of a wife killer being some big hero who saves everyone isn't something I can get into very much, whoever it turns out to be I can't see it being god news them. The only bit to do with AAR stuff that I'm into is, the waking dragons from stone stuff, my own personal hope is that its Shireen who's the stone dragon, with her greyscale and Targaryen blood. Crackpot or not it's my theory and I'm sticking to it, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I've never been very into the AAR stuff, the idea of a wife killer being some big hero who saves everyone isn't something I can get into very much, whoever it turns out to be I can't see it being god news them. The only bit to do with AAR stuff that I'm into is, the waking dragons from stone stuff, my own personal hope is that its Shireen who's the stone dragon, with her greyscale and Targaryen blood. Crackpot or not it's my theory and I'm sticking to it, lol. Actually, I've thought of the same possibility. We know (from the show) that she will be needed at the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Uh, we have the real text of the prophecy. Melisandre didn't come up with this prophecy- Thoros also knows of the prophecy, as does Salladhor Saan. Even Aemon knows about Lightbringer, and he even has a book about it and Azor Ahai, as well. It's obviously a well-known and longstanding prophecy to the followers of R'hollor, which is probably why Melisandre went out to seek AAR.Melisandre's flames show the truth...she simply misinterprets it. Just as she did with the vision of Jon when she asks to see AAR. No we do not. Mel gives three differing accounts, and the only real similarities are the terms AAR, prince that was promised, lightbringer, and dragons. If the prophecy was clear cut we wouldn't be arguing about it every other thread. And Martin isn't the trope-smashing ground breaker that some people claim he is. He has plenty of stereotypical fantasy clichés all throughout his books...he's just made them more interesting to read than your typical fantasy author has. I never claimed he was a trope-smashing ground breaker, although to be fair these types of comments aren't just made up to sing him praise. It's obviously something a lot of people believe. I said that I doubt he will make Jon into the traditional Hero, or the Monomythic hero, if you will. He doesn't write these types of character often. His first sold story was about a guy who wanted to proclaim himself as a Hero and was killed for it. He's admitted to writing clear archetypes, but he does try to subvert them. He's done this with Arya and Brienne rather well, and based on his other works, his interviews about heroes, and his direction with Jon, I just do not seeing him playing the trope straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I've never been very into the AAR stuff, the idea of a wife killer being some big hero who saves everyone isn't something I can get into very much, whoever it turns out to be I can't see it being god news them. The only bit to do with AAR stuff that I'm into is, the waking dragons from stone stuff, my own personal hope is that its Shireen who's the stone dragon, with her greyscale and Targaryen blood. Crackpot or not it's my theory and I'm sticking to it, lol. For this reason, I don't want Jon to be it because the speculation seems to suggest Ghost needs to die. Which brings up another question. Would Jon kill ghost to have a magical sword? Everyone, well most people, seem to think Jon would turn down the IT, but eventually be forced into it. What about this scenario? Would Jon, if he were AA, refuse to kill an innocent person or his closest ally for a sword? Something doesn't seem right there to me. I can see Jon beheading someone (Slynt) who deserves it, but the innocent? We do no one person who "likes" to kill innocents though...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon rhaegar stark Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 But we never saw a vision of AAR or the real text of the prophecy. We have only her word about when/where/how AA will be reborn, and it changes each time to accommodate what's going on. Paper Waver did a good post about that somewhere. It's clear Melony is not credible with the AAR nonsense. I never said Jon is a cliche. I often advocate that he isn't. But he is a more common trope than Dany is, and I'm basing my "Martin won't write that" statement on his actual words. He is not a big fan of capital H Heroes. Have you read any of his other works? He rarely invokes the Monomythic hero trope, and making Jon a clear cut AAR would be doing just that. i completely agree with you and i hate when people say that the characters are too cliche and i see them as a Fan of particular charatcer and their assumption is clearly clouded on the other character when people say Danny has a cliche i view them as not a fan of Danny character because if we considered the a cliche character then it will be jon in my eyes and as a fan of both of Jon and danny iam perfectly fine with them whhy i said i dont like when Grrm doesnt do that and Too cliche arguments because people forget to see the facts in the books and wants their own character to be the one however strong the clues for other character can be that one ...and simply neglecting as it will be a red herring and too easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 No we do not. Mel gives three differing accounts, and the only real similarities are the terms AAR, prince that was promised, lightbringer, and dragons. If the prophecy was clear cut we wouldn't be arguing about it every other thread. Then how do others, completely unrelated to Mel, know about the prophecy? And how is it so eerily similar to TPWWP prophecy? "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned ... and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end ... death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn ...[10] ” - Haldon to Tyrion Lannister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Then how do others, completely unrelated to Mel, know about the prophecy? I think what he's saying is that, at least to his or my knowledge, we don't have an original quote of the prophesy. We have various players recalling it to fit their situations, but we don't have a more or less "neutral" take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I think what he's saying is that, at least to his or my knowledge, we don't have an original quote of the prophesy. We have various players recalling it to fit their situations, but we don't have a more or less "neutral" take on it. From the way he phrased it, he made it sound like Melisandre has foretold this prophecy from her visions, and therefore, it's unreliable. But she didn't foretell this prophecy at all. The different requirements of the prophecy are clear-cut...we need a rebirth, bleeding star, gathering darkness, smoke, salt, dragons from stone and it has to happen after a long summer. And AAR must also reforge Lightbringer...although it's less clear if that means he will need another Nissa Nissa or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Then how do others, completely unrelated to Mel, know about the prophecy? I suppose the same way others not in the north know about the Others even though they're largely seen as crib tales (even by Eddard.) It's probably a part of the same Hero of the Long Night lore that many Rhllor fanatics share. Might I also add that Melony didn't say jack about the Others until the suggestion to go north was on the table? Snow4 is right. What I'm getting at is we don't know the full story of AAR. We only have it from a woman proclaiming Stannis as he. If Stannis turns out to be the one, I'll give Melony more credit but as of now she's not shown to be particularly reliable and uses confirmation bias way too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naseridrl Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Actually, I've thought of the same possibility. We know (from the show) that she will be needed at the Wall. I just want more for her than to be sacrificed for someone else, I like her character much more than those around her an I want her to have something happen to her that doesn't involve burning and dying or being used to further someone else's destiny. But if she was the Stone Dragon who was awoken and had a part to play I'd love that. As I said crackpot or not I love little Shireen from what little we know and Id like things to not end too badly for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateVergo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Dany is the biggest cliche in ASOIAF and that's not even close.Not to mention that 95% of Dany's fans like her because she is a woman, if Dany was a boy they would probably whine about boring and cliche she is.I mean seriously, what did Jon do to be considered as gary-sue or cliche hero? The most impressive feat he has is defending the wall and that's it, how can you even compare this with Dany the breaker of chains, mother of dragons, queen of meereen, with an army and Barristan Selmy on her side. If one of them is cliche and a sue it's Dany not Jon. even if she defeats the Others all by herself.Which fanfiction do you read? Because IIRC Dany is as competent as Hot Pie with a sword.All she could do is "Dracarys" and that's it.Dany is neither a good military commander nor a fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I suppose the same way others not in the north know about the Others even though they're largely seen as crib tales (even by Eddard.) It's probably a part of the same Hero of the Long Night lore that many Rhllor fanatics share. Might I also add that Melony didn't say jack about the Others until the suggestion to go north was on the table? Snow4 is right. What I'm getting at is we don't know the full story of AAR. We only have it from a woman proclaiming Stannis as he. If Stannis turns out to be the one, I'll give Melony more credit but as of now she's not shown to be particularly reliable and uses confirmation bias way too much. I'm saying the prophecy is right...Melisandre is interpreting it wrong, like she has with other visions. I think we have all we need to know about the prophecy, it's just a matter of someone fulfilling all of the obligations at this point, whether it is Dany or Jon. Both are lacking required elements, but I will bet that Jon is AAR, based on the hints we got in the last book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 sj, here is the post I mentioned from Paper Waver. It shows that Melony definitely is changing the story to fit what's going on. Much like many on here (including me, I am not innocent of it) she is trying to fit elements into the prophecy rather than letting it lead her. Frankly, if Melony told me she foresaw me taking a dump later in the day I wouldn't believe her. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 sj, here is the post I mentioned from Paper Waver. It shows that Melony definitely is changing the story to fit what's going on. Much like many on here (including me, I am not innocent of it) she is trying to fit elements into the prophecy rather than letting it lead her. Frankly, if Melony told me she foresaw me taking a dump later in the day I wouldn't believe her. :D Mel is a fanatic and as such she will make her own interpretation fit what she thinks she knows in order to be "right." She meets Stannis and instantly "he is is AAR!" even if that interpretation doesn't make a lick of sense. She goes to the Wall and begins to understand that Jon is something special, but refuses to give up her own bias towards Stanni even when her fires show her other things. When it comes to this prophecy, a lot of it comes down to proximity. In Essos they think it's Dany because she's RIGHT THERE doing all these things. On Dragonstone, Mel thinks it's Stannis because he's RIGHT THERE and she can make him fit. Put Mel and the Red Priests of Essos, into a room with Stannis, Jon and Dany and it'd be hella confusing for all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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