How will they condense FFC and DWD into Season 5? (book spoilers)

[sj4iy]

This user never posts something else than this ^ regarding him, sometimes I don't know if he/she is serious or trolling, I'd say it's exaggerated naysaying + very much cynicism and pessimism...

I wouldn't take this really seriously and agree with you and Arkash!

I don't get the idea that the producers' like or dislike of a character dictates how they treat that character onscreen. Stannis literally has nothing to do for the entirety of book 3 except mope around the castle after his defeat at Blackwater. At least they gave him something to do by sending him to Braavos (which was a great introduction to the city, imo). Stannis is important...he's extremely important next season, and they aren't going to gloss over him or the Wall or the Northern storyline to focus on other parts of the story that they may 'like better'.

[PatrickStormborn]

What things? He doesn't find out anything about his mother, he doesn't prevent any attack of the White Walkers... He's stuck at the Wall rulling and trying to get the wildlings to his side while his men distrust him more and more. That's basically it.

They can cut a few rather stupid subplots: burning Mace to show him alive later(seriously, what happened with "anyone can die?", George?), the sudden arrival of a girl-who-was-supposed-to-be-Arya-but-nobody-cares-about, and sending Val to find Tormund (since he is already at the Wall).

If none of that is important now, I guess they might as well not have shown King's Landing in season 3...

It's important to show how Jon goes from being elected as Lord Commander to being assassinated by his own men. To cut the things that make that happen would be prioritising plot development over the characters.

I don't believe ten episodes is enough time to show Jon being elected, working with Stannis, allowing the wildlings through the wall, and finally assassinated, without the story feeling contrived.

Average job? Yeah okay. They have done an amazing job which is why they get such high praise from HBO, the actors, and most fans.

AFFC & ADWD took the core characters of the series and threw them on the back burner for a bunch of half finished story lines. The show will do what the books should have done, which is stay more with the main characters and advance the story. The story has made very little progress since ASOS which was released over a decade ago.

HBO and the actors praise D&D because they're getting paid. The fans praise D&D because they are entertained by the show. That has nothing to do with objective quality.

Your mistake is viewing AFfC and ADwD as two complete books rather than one full book together. I'd argue that more plot developments occur in AFfC and ADwD than in ACoK or even AGoT.

I can see season 5 going down that way :

- Wall : 18% of the season.

- KL : 15%.

- Meereen : 15%.

- Dorne (+ Jaime's arc): 12%.

- Winterfell (+ Stannis march): 12%.

- Tyrion's journeys : 10%.

- Potential Sam's journeys : 6%.

- Potential Iron Born's arc : 6%

- Brienne and Pod : 6%.

That is just not practical. You've allocated no time at all to any of the Stark children, despite Arya being a firm fan favourite. Similarly, you're being far too optimistic with Tyrion's screentime. Even in season 3 he had the vast majority of screentime - why would season 5 be any different, when he's the most popular character?

Let's not forget that Lena Headey and Peter Dinklage are the highest paid actors on this show. Their screentime will continue to reflect that.

Ideally, each character would appear in fewer episodes but have more screentime within the episodes they actually appear. But I think it's too late for that by this point.

[Frumpus]

Casting Trystane instead of Arianne and Quentyn doesn't make any sense. Trystane is the least important of the Martell siblings.

It makes sense when you want to combine/cut characters...

[The One And Only]

Your mistake is viewing AFfC and ADwD as two complete books rather than one full book together. I'd argue that more plot developments occur in AFfC and ADwD than in ACoK or even AGoT.

I have read it as one giant book. And it is bloated and filled with characters I could care less about.

[RottenAppleFossoway]

It appears they will condense the two books by not actually filming the content in the books, but by changing everything they possibly can so that the show is to be only "loosely based on the books by GRRM" instead of "based on the books by GRRM."

[sj4iy]

It appears they will condense the two books by not actually filming the content in the books, but by changing everything they possibly can so that the show is to be only "loosely based on the books by GRRM" instead of "based on the books by GRRM."

Or "They'll film what is actually necessary to the story and leave the extraneous stuff out".

Which is how the book should have been written in the first place.

[Arkash]

Well, then there's the debate : better film only what is useful to the endgame or feature the highpoints of the journey, those vivid moments most readers remember...

Wyman Manderly could be absolutely unimportant to the endgame (hell, he even might have died when a Frey attempted on his life during his last appearance in Dance) but his speeches, his pies and the character in general is generally considered among the best stuff in Dance.

The Iron Born may be useless as well in the end but the Kingsmoot is one of the most visual moments of the story.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is I understand the importance of getting to the endgame, but it's those particual moments that make the story as well and it would be a shame to loose so many of them.

[gogorath]

I expect that they are going to condense much of AFFC and ADWD into one season by completely cutting some subplots.

If they do the Kingsmoot/Victarion storylines, and I doubt they do, it'll likely be only a couple of scenes -- Kingsmoot and Victarion arriving. But I think it's gone.

I really don't expect Sam to go to Oldtown. I don't think we get Brienne's as written. Quentyn is gone, etc.

If the character is a main character, we will get their story, but a bit rushed. If they are more to the side, Brienne, Sam, etc., then the story will be eliminated or made to serve a main story. That goes even for Jaime.

It's going to be a major departure and there's a lot we won't like.

The likely upside is: now that the show is outpacing the books, the more divergence, the less likely the show spoils the books. Always looking for the bright side, that's me.

[RottenAppleFossoway]

Or "They'll film what is actually necessary to the story and leave the extraneous stuff out".

Which is how the book should have been written in the first place.

Having Jaime and Bronn go to Dorne, while seemingly cutting/merging Arianne/Quentyn with Trystane isn't leaving extraneous stuff out. It's completely re-writing a story that has already been written.

[Steelborn]

Having Jaime and Bronn go to Dorne, while seemingly cutting/merging Arianne/Quentyn with Trystane isn't leaving extraneous stuff out. It's completely re-writing a story that has already been written.

:bowdown:

[sj4iy]

Having Jaime and Bronn go to Dorne, while seemingly cutting/merging Arianne/Quentyn with Trystane isn't leaving extraneous stuff out. It's completely re-writing a story that has already been written.

...to make it watchable. If they filmed it 'as is', it would not be watchable at all. Putting Jaime and Bronn in there connects the audience to a new place with new characters in a way that Martin should have done.

[The One And Only]

Having Jaime and Bronn go to Dorne, while seemingly cutting/merging Arianne/Quentyn with Trystane isn't leaving extraneous stuff out. It's completely re-writing a story that has already been written.

Many people prefer David and Dan's way of telling the story. I am one of those people. Jamie in Bronn in Dorne? Sounds better then what happened in the books. I look forward to it.

Just different ways to get to the end game. Hasn't Tywin/Arya and Hound/Brienne taught people anything? Changes made by the show runners often improve the source material.

It amazes me that some people are already mad about season 5 when they haven't seen a single second of it.

[The One And Only]

It's going to be a major departure and there's a lot we won't like.

The likely upside is: now that the show is outpacing the books, the more divergence, the less likely the show spoils the books. Always looking for the bright side, that's me.

How do you know you won't like it? You haven't even seen it yet. That is just silly talk.

And you do realize the show will eventually spoil he books. Sure not everything will happen exactly the same, but the show will ruin the major events of books 6 & 7. That is not going to change.

[RottenAppleFossoway]

I'm not saying it's going to bad or good, or better or worse than the books.

I'll still be watching it regardless.

[zaphodbrx]

Many people prefer David and Dan's way of telling the story. I am one of those people. Jamie in Bronn in Dorne? Sounds better then what happened in the books. I look forward to it.

Just different ways to get to the end game. Hasn't Tywin/Arya and Hound/Brienne taught people anything? Changes made by the show runners often improve the source material.

It amazes me that some people are already mad about season 5 when they haven't seen a single second of it.

Hound/Brienne was rubbish.

Tywin /Arya wasn't too bad but it was illogical.

Yes, it has taught us that whenever D&D diverge from the source material what follows is inevitably crap.

If D&D wanted to write their little fan fictions they should have come up with their own show. And stop pretending that this is an 'adaptation'.

Well, then there's the debate : better film only what is useful to the endgame or feature the highpoints of the journey, those vivid moments most readers remember...

Wyman Manderly could be absolutely unimportant to the endgame (hell, he even might have died when a Frey attempted on his life during his last appearance in Dance) but his speeches, his pies and the character in general is generally considered among the best stuff in Dance.

The Iron Born may be useless as well in the end but the Kingsmoot is one of the most visual moments of the story.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is I understand the importance of getting to the endgame, but it's those particual moments that make the story as well and it would be a shame to loose so many of them.

I have brought up the same point over and over again.

If only the 'endgame' was important, you could just have Ned stab Robert in the throne room and then have Joffrey throw him in the dungeon. OMG those book readers, y u complain? Its the same thing , King Bob's dead, Joffrey's the new king and Ned is in jail. Book purists! Burn! And before you think it is hyperbole, they have already taken more liberties with Stannis and Sansa's storylines than the above mentioned scenario.

Same story with Quentyn. Guy goes somewhere, gets himself killed. Hmm, isn't that the exact description of Oberyn Martell in King's Landing? Yet, one is considered pointless and another isn't.

AFFC and ADWD are superb books when you read them as character studies and not as 'plot'. Here's one of my favorite lines in AFFC, it is Jamie's thoughts after Tywin's death

"Every crow in the seven kingdoms should pay homage to you, father. From Castamere to Blackwater, you fed them well'.

Of course I certainly don't expect such a line to be in the show. Jamie will be too busy with Dornish T+A and they might have him do some rape and cousin murder as well. Since we all know that's what important to the 'plot' and 'endgame'.

[JagLover]

How do you know you won't like it? You haven't even seen it yet. That is just silly talk.

And you do realize the show will eventually spoil he books. Sure not everything will happen exactly the same, but the show will ruin the major events of books 6 & 7. That is not going to change.

From the start GRRM has said he knows the fate of the main characters and presumably D&D know that now as well.

Bypassing plots that start in the middle of the story and almost certainly come to an end before the end of the main story will not leave you any less spoiled.

As at the end of ADWD I challenge you to find any main character that is significantly impacted (to the extent that their omission will affect their core story) by the following:

The Greyjoy brothers

FAegon

Quentyn

Arianne

Looking forward some may have a more vital role to play it is true. But someone arriving with 60 ships, when you already have more ships than that in the show universe is not "vital" in my book.

[zaphodbrx]

This user never posts something else than this ^ regarding him, sometimes I don't know if he/she is serious or trolling, I'd say it's exaggerated naysaying + very much cynicism and pessimism...

I wouldn't take this really seriously and agree with you and Arkash!

ETA: I think even zaphodbrx him(?)self knows the whole Northern storyline (Wall PLUS Stannis PLUS Winterfell) will take more than 1 h, again, that's just cynic and bad mood, IMO.

Stannis got 10 minutes in season 3. And ALL of it was filler ( including the 'free folk do not kneel' stuff at the end- that wasn't from the books ). Statistically, there is simply no reason to think there would be a considerable improvement in this regard.

Jon has very little to do apart from getting elected. Val is gone, Tormund is already there, Alys Karstark is gone, the Bravosi banker has no reason to show up, etc. They might have him send Mance to Winterfell but why? There's no 'fake Arya'. My guess is, Mance will just get burned and the end.

Stannis doesn't have anything to do either, the Mountain clans are gone, he already has the mercenaries and iron bank support, and the battle wont take place this season . He'll talk a little with Jon and maybe capture Yara, thats it. Even that I'm not sure, as Yara has no reason now to be in the North anyway.

Without Manderly and Fake Arya ( and Lady Dustin etc. ) , the Winterfell gang has absolutely nothing to do.

Really think about it, 1 hr is generous. Even accounting for the fact that they might put in something involving the Umbers and Davos, Rickon, Osha.

From the start GRRM has said he knows the fate of the main characters and presumably D&D know that now as well.

Bypassing plots that start in the middle of the story and almost certainly come to an end before the end of the main story will not leave you any less spoiled.

As at the end of ADWD I challenge you to find any main character that is significantly impacted (to the extent that their omission will affect their core story) by the following:

The Greyjoy brothers

FAegon

Quentyn

Arianne

Looking forward some may have a more vital role to play it is true. But someone arriving with 60 ships, when you already have more ships than that in the show universe is not "vital" in my book.

Aand yet another one of those "end game" apologists.

First of all, the ideology that only the "end game" matters is demonstratably false ( see my previous post ).

Second and more importantly: D&D have shown NO sign that they favor the "end game" ideology. Burping whores, Beetles, Nothing is Nothing, etc. matter absolutely nothing to the end game and yet they are there all right. Want a less extreme example? Tywin and Oberyn conversation. Contributes nothing whatsoever to the "end game", it is just a little D&D fanfiction that gets overlooked because it is not terrible compared to all the other ( really bad ) fillers in the season.

[RottenAppleFossoway]

From the start GRRM has said he knows the fate of the main characters and presumably D&D know that now as well.

Bypassing plots that start in the middle of the story and almost certainly come to an end before the end of the main story will not leave you any less spoiled.

As at the end of ADWD I challenge you to find any main character that is significantly impacted (to the extent that their omission will affect their core story) by the following:

The Greyjoy brothers

FAegon

Quentyn

Arianne

Looking forward some may have a more vital role to play it is true. But someone arriving with 60 ships, when you already have more ships than that in the show universe is not "vital" in my book.

Need clarification on what a "main character" is, because Arianne Martell, Victarion Greyjoy, Aeron Greyjoy make up a good portion of AFFC (and Vic in ADWD as well) and are, therefore, main characters in their own right.

As to what they affect: Arianne is the Dornish story for the most part. Her plotting is a central theme in the book and she appears to be headed toward affecting the JonCon/Aegon story, and therefore, the KL storyline as well.

Vic and Aeron's actions both directly affect each other and Asha and Theon and the rest of Westeros (in Vic's case) since they invade the Reach, affecting the Tyrells, and therefore, the Lannisters. And Vic is headed to Dany where he's almost certain to interact with Dany, Barri, Tyrion and Jorah.

Quentyn is carrying out Doran Martell's plan, makes some really bad decisions, and gets roasted for it. His death ( and the manner of it) won't have any effect on the Dornish, who are now going to be "main characters?"

Aegon is Vary's plan all along. Vary's isn't a pov in the books, but he's certainly more important than just a tertiary character, no?

Considering that at the end of ADWD, Aegon is making enough noise to be heard about by Cersei and the small council in KL, that they dispatch RR Connington and a force to deal with him and JonCon. Aegon appears to be set to affect almost EVERY major character, and if not, JonCon's Greyscale most assuredly will.

The show is great as a show (to me anyway), but the numerous mistakes and omissions, re-writing's and merging of characters/plots makes it, considering it's a story already written, pretty craptastic as an adaptation at times. Filler scenes are filmed and placed in at times where actual book events could be put instead. Unnecessarily so IMO.

[JagLover]

Need clarification on what a "main character" is, because Arianne Martell, Victarion Greyjoy, Aeron Greyjoy make up a good portion of AFFC (and Vic in ADWD as well) and are, therefore, main characters in their own right.

As to what they affect: Arianne is the Dornish story for the most part. Her plotting is a central theme in the book and she appears to be headed toward affecting the JonCon/Aegon story, and therefore, the KL storyline as well.

Vic and Aeron's actions both directly affect each other and Asha and Theon and the rest of Westeros (in Vic's case) since they invade the Reach, affecting the Tyrells, and therefore, the Lannisters. And Vic is headed to Dany where he's almost certain to interact with Dany, Barri, Tyrion and Jorah.

Quentyn is carrying out Doran Martell's plan, makes some really bad decisions, and gets roasted for it. His death ( and the manner of it) won't have any effect on the Dornish, who are now going to be "main characters?"

Aegon is Vary's plan all along. Vary's isn't a pov in the books, but he's certainly more important than just a tertiary character, no?

Considering that at the end of ADWD, Aegon is making enough noise to be heard about by Cersei and the small council in KL, that they dispatch RR Connington and a force to deal with him and JonCon. Aegon appears to be set to affect almost EVERY major character, and if not, JonCon's Greyscale most assuredly will.

The show is great as a show (to me anyway), but the numerous mistakes and omissions, re-writing's and merging of characters/plots makes it, considering it's a story already written, pretty craptastic as an adaptation at times. Filler scenes are filmed and placed in at times where actual book events could be put instead. Unnecessarily so IMO.

if I remember rightly GRRM's initial plan was to write ASOIAF with an even more limited number of POV characters than there eventually was in AGOT and not add to the number as he went along. They key characters are those POV characters from the first book, plus any that have been added since that are crucial to the end game (perhaps none of them).

No matter how many chapters someone like Brienne, Sam or Victarion is allocated that doesn't make them a main character.

Interacting with someone, or making a small difference to them (like bringing ships, or creating yet more discord between Tyrells and Lannisters) does not change their path.

For example Cersei and Maegery are going to fight. Denying the Redwyne's permission to return to deal with the Ironborn is a part of that rivalry but not core to it.

[sj4iy]

Stannis got 10 minutes in season 3. And ALL of it was filler ( including the 'free folk do not kneel' stuff at the end- that wasn't from the books ). Statistically, there is simply no reason to think there would be a considerable improvement in this regard.

Wrong. Stannis had over 16 minutes of screentime for season 3. And "we do not kneel" was season 4.

Now, look at book 3 and tell me how much Stannis did that entire book.

Jon has very little to do apart from getting elected. Val is gone, Tormund is already there, Alys Karstark is gone, the Bravosi banker has no reason to show up, etc. They might have him send Mance to Winterfell but why? There's no 'fake Arya'. My guess is, Mance will just get burned and the end.

Even without any of that, Jon still has to get elected, deal with Stannis, deal with the Wildlings, let the Wildlings through, execute Slynt, deal with Melisandre and get assassinated. That's quite a lot for one season (if they cram it all in).

Stannis doesn't have anything to do either, the Mountain clans are gone, he already has the mercenaries and iron bank support, and the battle wont take place this season . He'll talk a little with Jon and maybe capture Yara, thats it. Even that I'm not sure, as Yara has no reason now to be in the North anyway.

The showrunners said we would get a lot more of Stannis next season at Comic Con. Their words.

Without Manderly and Fake Arya ( and Lady Dustin etc. ) , the Winterfell gang has absolutely nothing to do.

You have no idea what they will keep. There will be enough to do without them.

Really think about it, 1 hr is generous. Even accounting for the fact that they might put in something involving the Umbers and Davos, Rickon, Osha.

It's hilarious how sure you are of yourself about this, even though you are skipping a lot of the book plot in your "analysis".

Aand yet another one of those "end game" apologists.

And this reads as "How dare you realize that this is an adaptation and things will be changed!"

First of all, the ideology that only the "end game" matters is demonstratably false ( see my previous post ).

And the ideology that a tv adaptation of an extremely long book series would make no changes is also false.

Second and more importantly: D&D have shown NO sign that they favor the "end game" ideology. Burping whores, Beetles, Nothing is Nothing, etc. matter absolutely nothing to the end game and yet they are there all right. Want a less extreme example? Tywin and Oberyn conversation. Contributes nothing whatsoever to the "end game", it is just a little D&D fanfiction that gets overlooked because it is not terrible compared to all the other ( really bad ) fillers in the season.

And Brienne wandering around for 8 chapters also does nothing to advance the plot. Neither does Dany sitting in Mereen for an entire book. Bran traveling North chapter after chapter does nothing, either. The show takes far less liberty with the material than Martin does.