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R+L=J v.93


J. Stargaryen

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God, don't let SoD see this. . .

Beats Benjen + Lyanna = Jon. That was just all kinds of messed up.

Another Corn King fan? The story of Jon Barleycorn the man Barley who sacrificed himself to the goddess. Interesting little story about the harvest cycle. Though there is no Corn in that story it's Barley, Barleycorn is a unit of measurement for Barley. It's more like wheat and part of the grass family. Lammas which the story is about is the wheat harvest in August. In fact it was yesterday. If you know about the Roman deity Saturn you will find a very similar event as well, though Saturn was actually the Corn God. If your interested here is a little write up on Saturn aka Chronus aka Father Time. The harvest festival, the sower god, the raven/crow, the father of three famed gods, the symbolic use of the moon. It's a good read and may also be one of Martins many indirect influences, like Jon Barleycorn. Saturn was often honored in midwinter by the way. But also the celebration of Kronia which was held roughly at the very end of July or very beginning of August just like Lammas though Kronia came first well before 170 BC. You may find this link a very interesting read some of it is irrelevant but a lot appears to be relevant.

http://www.novareinna.com/festive/oft.html

Going back to the notion of GRRM telling a story within a story, here is Jorahs moment at the Lannisport tournament where he first found Lynesse, (and I'm actually intrigued by how similar Lyanna and Lynesse's names are).

But when I first read this, I felt very strongly that Martin was telling the story of the Harrenhal crowning.

(BQ, you might want to leave the "room" for this). :bawl:

“To celebrate his victory, Robert ordained that a tourney should be held outside Lannisport. It was there I saw Lynesse, a maid half my age. She had come up from Oldtown with her father to see her brothers joust. I could not take my eyes off her. In a fit of madness, I begged her favor to wear in the tourney, never dreaming she would grant my request, yet she did.

“I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse’s favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion’s laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty....."

Hey Red. Didn't Jorah and Lynesse go to Essos? Just throwing that out there... again. :)

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Oh really ? Seems that I got all my ages messed up.

Just to be sure, I always see in comment that Jon is Lord Commander at 16, sometimes even 15. Burt it is not possible right ? He was 14 in the beginning, 15 when he took his vow, and 16 when he was with Ygritte so I would say that by the time of the end of ADWD, he is 17. But people here seems to think that he is younger, same with Dany (15 by the end of ADWD, when I would say 16)

EDIT: Eddard + Lyanna = Jon -> :ack:

I'll take the timeline question!

Dance ends about halfway through the year 300AC (7 or 8 months in, since Roslin has yet to give birth). It can differ a few weeks per POV, of course, but roughly...

Jon is thus still 16, but his 17th nameday (assuming he survives) will be somewhere early in Winds.

Dany's 16th nameday has indeed already passed by now in Dance (but not that long ago, with her nameday being 3 to 4 months before Jons in the year)

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The case for E+L=J is . . .

um

It feels right?

Not to be flaky (anymore than usual) but it strikes me something is going to come totally out of left field wrt Jon.

My first thought along this line was Brandon - he is after all the wild and impetuous one. But then I thought about family dynamics, quiet brother, wild sister. And the way Ned thinks of her "Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart." Seems a little bit mushy for Ned, He's pretty dry for the most part.

Then there's all that "promise me Ned", stuff. If it was as simple as take care of Jon for me and raise him right, well Ned did that in spades, he can rest easy. But he doesn't. He continues to be tortured.

And there's that stuff about how much Jon looks like Ned. Well what better way to look just like your father than if your mother is his sister. And he's a strong warg - if he gets the warg gene from both sides, that kinda makes sense.

Overall I like the grittiness of it - or the " ewww... " factor to use your word. Feels like something GRRM would do.

eta

I'm not sure about the timeline either, but who knows.

It can work... with a year-long gestation. After all Lyanna was half a horse herself. The Prince that was Postponed.

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Thanks for the many replies to my doubts about this theory. I will not answer them all individually but will try my best to cover them.



First the Stark look. Yes that would be important. But throughout the north there must be many descendants with that look. The Karstarks for example. And surely there must have been many others scattered around in the past, especially Snows. Do we know for sure that females can pass on the Stark look? It may be only passed down by the father.



As for the Chekhov gun this does not really apply as much in sprawling epics as in plays, as there are many hundreds of such guns if you wish to interpret them that way. The author assaults us with so much history it would be hard not to find an arsenal of weapons. The Chekov wall would be covered with hundreds of such guns. Instead of Chevhov I would like to quote Crocodile Dundee. There appears to be no evidence that Lyana even had a child (if so please correct me). On the other hand Ned is mentioned as having had a bastard child with a fisherwoman around the time of RR on Sweetsister and given the name Jon Snow. Now that is what I call a knife.



Lyana's promise is also pretty vague and could be interpreted several ways. I would also have expected Ned to let Cat in on the secret (no matter what promise was made) if only for Jon's benefit. Ned's 'honour' has already been sullied by claiming to have had a bastard child.


And I still feel Jon was treated badly at WF, much worse than even Theon. But i could be wrong on that.



These are some of the niggling doubts I have about the theory, although I am still inclined to believe it on balance.


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First the Stark look. Yes that would be important. But throughout the north there must be many descendants with that look. The Karstarks for example. And surely there must have been many others scattered around in the past, especially Snows. Do we know for sure that females can pass on the Stark look? It may be only passed down by the father.

Looks are not passed on only by one parent. A father can pass on his looks to his child dominantly (see Rhaegar passing on his Valyrian looks to his son Aegon), but a mother can do that as well (Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys looked like her mother Elia, and had Elia's dornish looks).

So yeah, Females will also be able to pass on the Stark look.

The Karstarks are distantly related. So they might look more like the Starks than say, the Boltons, but they will look differently than actual Starks. There's an example in the books, actually. Alys Karstark looks enough like Arya to give Jon Snow pause, but when he looks past the first glance, he can see substantial differences. So at first look, the Starks and Karstarks might look like each other, but on closer look, they differ enough.

There appears to be no evidence that Lyana even had a child (if so please correct me). On the other hand Ned is mentioned as having had a bastard child with a fisherwoman around the time of RR on Sweetsister and given the name Jon Snow. Now that is what I call a knife.

She died in her bed of blood. The term "bed of blood" or "bloody bed" has only been associated with childbirth in the entire series.

The creators of the show were able to answer the question "who's Jon Snows mother?" with only the first book. The fisherwoman only appears in the 5th book. So she's obviously only to distract the readers, and try and confuse them.

Also, ask yourself this question: "Why would Ned not tell Jon or Catelyn that the mother was a fisherwoman?" Ned would have met her before his wedding to Catelyn, so there was no dishonering Catelyn. There is absolutely no reason to not tell Catelyn if the fisherwoman was the truth. Yet Ned doesn't tell..

Lyana's promise is also pretty vague and could be interpreted several ways. I would also have expected Ned to let Cat in on the secret (no matter what promise was made) if only for Jon's benefit. Ned's 'honour' has already been sullied by claiming to have had a bastard child.

When Ned returned from the war, he didn't know Catelyn. There was no telling whether or not he could trust her, and Neds secret (according to R+L=J) was high treason. Ned would have had to make a decision: could he trust that Catelyn would value her new husband, a man she didn't know at all, enough to keep his secret, and thus commit high treason herself? Or would Catelyn, fearing that someone would figure it out and execute Ned and his children, thus Catelyns son, tell Robert to ensure Robb's safety?

As I said, the secret is high treason. After Ned and Catelyn had gotten to know each other, trust each other, love each other, why not tell her then? Because that would be an incredible burden to put on someone who has got nothing to do with it. And as Ned wonders in the Black Cells, what would Catelyn do, if it were the lives of her own children, against the life of Jon?

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ADWD Epilogue:



Nothing groundbreaking. Jon = Dragon = Moon:



"The snow had finally stopped falling. Behind a veil of ragged clouds, a full moon floated fat and white as a snowball."


Later in that paragraph:


"What must it be like up on the Wall?"

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We may never know if L+R=J but who cares.For those who do I have an explanation." Promise me lord Stark ," Lyanna pleaded "tell him about me and his father" . Eddard now have been raising Jon for at lease 14 years he come to think of Jon as his son .Aware of the pain this would cause both him and Jon not including Robb ,Arya and Brandon it causes great anguish.

Martin said it will be in the next book.

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It can work... with a year-long gestation. After all Lyanna was half a horse herself. The Prince that was Postponed.





ROFLMAO!


In other words: The Rebellion lasted for about a year. Lyanna went missing before the whole shitstorm started. Dany was born 9 months after the Sack and Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, i.e. he was conceived a couple of months into the Rebellion. If Lyanna is the mother, that narrows the number of possible candidates for the father quite significantly.







Going back to the notion of GRRM telling a story within a story, here is Jorahs moment at the Lannisport tournament where he first found Lynesse, (and I'm actually intrigued by how similar Lyanna and Lynesse's names are).



But when I first read this, I felt very strongly that Martin was telling the story of the Harrenhal crowning.



(BQ, you might want to leave the "room" for this). :bawl:



“To celebrate his victory, Robert ordained that a tourney should be held outside Lannisport. It was there I saw Lynesse, a maid half my age. She had come up from Oldtown with her father to see her brothers joust. I could not take my eyes off her. In a fit of madness, I begged her favor to wear in the tourney, never dreaming she would grant my request, yet she did.


“I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse’s favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion’s laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty....."






I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight.



“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well.



Yet with Lynesse’s favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion’s laurel.


Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.



And here we have a quote from Barristan about things that affect luck in tournaments:



however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory.” He glanced at Ser Jorah. “Or a lady’s favor knotted round an arm.”



The interesting part is that the quote, while aimed at Jorah, is embedded in a talk about Rhaegar and his prowess in tourneys.



I do believe that Lyanna's crowning was indeed a romantic gesture on Rhaegar's part, that mere acknowledgement of her feats as KotLT wouldn't give him the drive necessary to win. However, being the dutiful prince and husband, it was the furthest he allowed himself to go then, and only Elia's inability to birth the third dragon head gave him the impetus, or excuse, to act on his feelings.


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It can work... with a year-long gestation. After all Lyanna was half a horse herself. The Prince that was Postponed.

HAHAHAHA

Lyana's promise is also pretty vague and could be interpreted several ways. I would also have expected Ned to let Cat in on the secret (no matter what promise was made) if only for Jon's benefit. Ned's 'honour' has already been sullied by claiming to have had a bastard child.

And I still feel Jon was treated badly at WF, much worse than even Theon. But i could be wrong on that.

How else do you interpret it?

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How else do you interpret it?

And let us not forget that those were promises the keeping of which required Ned to pay a price, so what was the price?

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It can work... with a year-long gestation. After all Lyanna was half a horse herself. The Prince that was Postponed.

ROFL... I was getting to this myself. You've pointed out the obvious flaw in the timeline with characteristic wit ;)

Lyana's promise is also pretty vague and could be interpreted several ways. I would also have expected Ned to let Cat in on the secret (no matter what promise was made) if only for Jon's benefit. Ned's 'honour' has already been sullied by claiming to have had a bastard child.

And I still feel Jon was treated badly at WF, much worse than even Theon. But i could be wrong on that.

Regarding the bold, the answer is found in Ned's own words:

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust.
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And let us not forget that those were promises the keeping of which required Ned to pay a price, so what was the price?

And why did the fear go out of Lyanna's eyes once Ned made those promises?

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And why did the fear go out of Lyanna's eyes once Ned made those promises?

And so on and so on. In other words: it is not enough to say that there might be other interpretations, one needs to adress those interpretations specifically as well as everything that ties to them.

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Thanks for the many replies to my doubts about this theory. I will not answer them all individually but will try my best to cover them.

First the Stark look. Yes that would be important. But throughout the north there must be many descendants with that look. The Karstarks for example. And surely there must have been many others scattered around in the past, especially Snows. Do we know for sure that females can pass on the Stark look? It may be only passed down by the father.

As for the Chekhov gun this does not really apply as much in sprawling epics as in plays, as there are many hundreds of such guns if you wish to interpret them that way. The author assaults us with so much history it would be hard not to find an arsenal of weapons. The Chekov wall would be covered with hundreds of such guns. Instead of Chevhov I would like to quote Crocodile Dundee. There appears to be no evidence that Lyana even had a child (if so please correct me). On the other hand Ned is mentioned as having had a bastard child with a fisherwoman around the time of RR on Sweetsister and given the name Jon Snow. Now that is what I call a knife.

Lyana's promise is also pretty vague and could be interpreted several ways. I would also have expected Ned to let Cat in on the secret (no matter what promise was made) if only for Jon's benefit. Ned's 'honour' has already been sullied by claiming to have had a bastard child.

And I still feel Jon was treated badly at WF, much worse than even Theon. But i could be wrong on that.

These are some of the niggling doubts I have about the theory, although I am still inclined to believe it on balance.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_Timeline_and_Catelyn

"Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere"

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Oh really ? Seems that I got all my ages messed up.

Just to be sure, I always see in comment that Jon is Lord Commander at 16, sometimes even 15. Burt it is not possible right ? He was 14 in the beginning, 15 when he took his vow, and 16 when he was with Ygritte so I would say that by the time of the end of ADWD, he is 17. But people here seems to think that he is younger, same with Dany (15 by the end of ADWD, when I would say 16)

EDIT: Eddard + Lyanna = Jon -> :ack:

I track the timeline around Harrenhal for a reason. Jaime was 15 when he took his white cloak, and 17 when he slew Aerys. Rhaenys was very near her third nameday when she was killed. Aegon was about one year old when slain. Robb is about a fortnight older than Jon. Jon is 8 to 9 months older than Daenerys, who was conceived a fortnight before the sack. Elia was bedridden for six months after Rhaenys' birth. Harrenhal was in the year of the False Spring, suggesting a period of winter followed, and likely close to a full year of winter. Ned talked with Lyanna, at Winterfell, after Harrenhal; because he went directly from the Eyrie to Harrenhal. Leading to a conclusion that all of the Stark family wintered in Winterfell. After the winter Brandon went to Riverrun to answer Petyr's challenge. A short time later he is returning from his errand when he makes his hasty run for King's Landing.

All, just off the top of my head.

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My biggest issue with this (and to be fair I think it's a very good analysis) is that I don't think Rhaegar's appreciation for Lyanna's beauty and his appreciation for her role as the Knight of the Laughing Tree are mutually exclusive. He may have been determined to win the joust so that he might crown her, but unlike Jorah (choke) I don't think it was solely because of how gorgeous Lyanna was. For Jorah (sob) he viewed Lyneese (hiss) as the Maiden come down to Earth; I don't think Rhaegar thought Lyanna was just sooooo stunning that he had to win the crown cause OMG SO PRETTY! He is attracted to her sexually but her role as the Knight it was takes the cake for him. So crowning her is an acknowledgement about her honor and integrity.

He's just sad and broken and tortured !!!!!!! (and also a ruthlessly pragmatic Machiavellian-type asshole but gods, I love him)

*cuddles Bear* Don't you listen to them, my bear!

:P

They aren't exactly the same parallels, but the motivations are the same- the heart.

I agree I don't think it was just Lyannas beauty, but that he did tentatively get to know her when he found her as tKotLT. (I think its ironic that Aerys had visions of this northern Knight who threatened his House, and sent Rhaegar straight into the "trap").

Rhaegar was surrounded by some of the most beautiful, polished and elegant women in Westeros, so he would have been somewhat immune to the glamor. I think that Lyanna blindsided him and he admired her as much for her conviction and courage, (as well as taking such a risk), as he did any beauty.

I also don't like to think tKotLT was some salacious, cheesy vehicle, (sound of seventies porn music in the background), for them to meet, but that tKotLT stood on its own as a symbol of what the kingdom was starting to lose in terms of corruption beginning to seep in, and that she represented an ideal.

But, as I believe he would not have consciously put her in danger, and in the bulls-eye of his father, which the crowning certainly would have done, I think it was the same passionate motivations that moved Jorah.

I don't think he would have ridden "straight past his wife," without so much as stopping by her box and forewarning her as he certainly wouldn't have had any foreknowledge of his victory to discuss it with her and warn her prior, unless it was a "fixed" win.

The Tourney of Harrenhal:

"It was the year of false spring and he was eighteen again down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal.

He remembered Brandon’s laughter and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king’s pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys.

All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen.

The prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap.

He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden.

He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark."

Jorahs Tourney:

“I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse’s favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man."

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ROFLMAO!

In other words: The Rebellion lasted for about a year. Lyanna went missing before the whole shitstorm started. Dany was born 9 months after the Sack and Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, i.e. he was conceived a couple of months into the Rebellion. If Lyanna is the mother, that narrows the number of possible candidates for the father quite significantly.

I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight.

“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well.

Yet with Lynesse’s favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion’s laurel.

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

And here we have a quote from Barristan about things that affect luck in tournaments:

however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory.” He glanced at Ser Jorah. “Or a lady’s favor knotted round an arm.”

The interesting part is that the quote, while aimed at Jorah, is embedded in a talk about Rhaegar and his prowess in tourneys.

I do believe that Lyanna's crowning was indeed a romantic gesture on Rhaegar's part, that mere acknowledgement of her feats as KotLT wouldn't give him the drive necessary to win. However, being the dutiful prince and husband, it was the furthest he allowed himself to go then, and only Elia's inability to birth the third dragon head gave him the impetus, or excuse, to act on his feelings.

That is absolutely correct and I just answered BQ basically the same thing as I just got up, lol.

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Beats Benjen + Lyanna = Jon. That was just all kinds of messed up.

Another Corn King fan? The story of Jon Barleycorn the man Barley who sacrificed himself to the goddess. Interesting little story about the harvest cycle. Though there is no Corn in that story it's Barley, Barleycorn is a unit of measurement for Barley. It's more like wheat and part of the grass family. Lammas which the story is about is the wheat harvest in August. In fact it was yesterday. If you know about the Roman deity Saturn you will find a very similar event as well, though Saturn was actually the Corn God. If your interested here is a little write up on Saturn aka Chronus aka Father Time. The harvest festival, the sower god, the raven/crow, the father of three famed gods, the symbolic use of the moon. It's a good read and may also be one of Martins many indirect influences, like Jon Barleycorn. Saturn was often honored in midwinter by the way. But also the celebration of Kronia which was held roughly at the very end of July or very beginning of August just like Lammas though Kronia came first well before 170 BC. You may find this link a very interesting read some of it is irrelevant but a lot appears to be relevant.

http://www.novareinna.com/festive/oft.html

Hey Red. Didn't Jorah and Lynesse go to Essos? Just throwing that out there... again. :)

Yes they did, but If Rhaegar and Lyanna went elsewhere prior to the TOJ, I hope it wasn't because Rhaegar embezzled from Crown accounts and absconded with Lyanna to Las Essos to get married in the Elvis chapel. :thumbsup:

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