Daenerys first big military defeat.

[Sir Lee knot]

Young dragons can be useful in war, but they're not likely to be provide a decisive advantage on the battlefield, if even a dragon as powerful as Meraxes could be killed.

Danerys suffered partial defeat in ADWD, in that her forces had to retreat to Meereen, before the Slavers.

With a dragon even like Drogon you could fly right to the King in the beginning of the battle and roast him and all his retainers. You'd basically be cutting the head off the army thus almost certainly winning.

[Mladen]

With a dragon even like Drogon you could fly right to the King in the beginning of the battle and roast him and all his retainers. You'd basically be cutting the head off the army thus almost certainly winning.

If the army between you and the mentioned King doesn't take you down with arrows, scorpion bolts etc.. What we have found out in TPATQ is that we don't need that much people to bring a dragon down... Actually, a lot less than I thought. Significantly less.

[Mladen]

sorry, double post

[Nictarion]

If the army between you and the mentioned King doesn't take you down with arrows, scorpion bolts etc.. What we have found out in TPATQ is that we don't need that much people to bring a dragon down... Actually, a lot less than I thought. Significantly less.

We saw dragons killed by other dragons, and dragons being killed while chained up and confined in a pit. I don't think killing a dragon is as easy as you're making it sound.

[FireAndBlood.]

I think GRRM has the "avoid making Dany the undefeated champion" thing covered. She doesn't have to lose any battles for this to happen because, in case you didn't notice, things haven't exactly been going well for her in Meereen.

[Mladen]

We saw dragons killed by other dragons, and dragons being killed while chained up and confined in a pit. I don't think killing a dragon is as easy as you're making it sound.

We heard of Meraxes being killed in Dorne while flying. I am not saying that one man could actually go and kill it (btw, another strawman argument... I have to start counting them) but it came as surprise that dragon can be indeed killed by that low number... Like, it doesn't need 5000 arrows or 1000 spears... A dragon can be killed with significantly smaller number than that. Nonetheless, it still is a challenge to kill a fully developed dragons, but the fact is that Dany's are still babies... Children at least... Which is yet another mitigating circumstance for potential dragonslayers.

But, at the end, it all depends on GRRM. If we have bought the Tyrion surviving battle after battle and Astapori scenario, well, I think we can also buy baby dragons surviving and being as intimidating as dragons of old.., GRRM can give them plot armor so powerful, that Balerion will be nothing compared to them.

[Sir Lee knot]

We saw dragons killed by other dragons, and dragons being killed while chained up and confined in a pit. I don't think killing a dragon is as easy as you're making it sound.

Only if Daenerys has them. If Aegon or god forbid Stannis gets his hands on one then they will be "SUPAR WEPPON'O MASS DISTRUCTION!"

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Unnecessary. I don't think Dany needs a military defeat for any other purposes than wishful thinking of some of her most passionate haters. Robb has proven that winning battles doesn't win you a war. It just seems idiotic to expect that for reasons of personal taste. And she has plenty of lost and failures as it is - It just screams hatred rather than sound critic.

[JonSnow4President]

I agree. It seems to me she has many haters simply because she's a woman & she's more powerful than anyone in Westeros. I'm sorry but if anyone thinks she's been given everything on a silver platter - they're incredibly narrow minded, and even sexist.

It's not her fault her father was a complete nutcase. She was shipped away by her family's killers with a brother who mentally and physically abused her throughout childhood. She was forced to marry a man she did not love by her brother, for her brother whilst still a child. The love that eventuated between her & Drogo was fantastically written by George, and happened because Daenerys was finally independent. Also, a really obvious part of her character is her 'gentle heart'. Ultimately, she's a good person. That's why people (men in particular) help her. She can change Westeros. She always has the common people in mind. People like Jorah & Barristan understand that.

That said, flaws are naturally developing. Ruling is not easy - she's realised that. She's adapting. She's learning. She's still young (yes, this doesn't excuse her flaws - but it's an undeniable reason as to why her journey is proving difficult). Her dragons, which will see her conquer Westeros no doubt, are proving to be more evil than good - and this goes against Dany's character IMO. She'll never turn her back on her dragons - they're dragons after all, and as far as we know, she's the only person in their world who can have them. They are her weapon.

Anyhow, yes she'll win or die on her own terms.

If that's against me, that's a strawman. My Dany dislike has nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman. As I've stated in other threads, and won't go into full detail here, the plot armor around her is particularly jarring. Plans that at best appear like their guaranteed to fail somehow turn around and work out perfectly, either through sheer unbelievable levels of incompetence on the parts of her enemies, or through luck. She then engages in treachery after two agreements. I'm not big on lying treacherous people, regardless of the gender of the person. ,

I would agree that flaws are developing naturally out of how she's ruling. Aside from a perverted sense of justice in my eyes (crucifixtions, post sack rulings, condoning torture), I don't have a big a problem with her rule, as it doesn't feel contrived. As far as her dragons seeing her conquer Westeros no doubt (I'm assuming you mean that all 3 will be the deciding force, I say bullshit. Aegon conquered Westeros with an army, and 3 large controllable dragons to help that Army. Dany has an army made up of foreigners who have no experience facing the armored Westerosi or a truly disciplined force of well commanded warriors. Her dragons are small enough, a random incursion into the equivalent of a football stadium had one sustain wounds. They are not the unstoppable forces of destruction you appear to be making them.

As far as the only person in the world who can have them, we'll see. There sure are a lot of plans to steal one for her to end up keeping them all permanently.

[KINGpanther]

I wanna see her try to take the North. I wanna see her march on Winterfell with an army unpreppared for the cold and go through what Stannis is currently enduring.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Victory and defeat in battle are not that important.Robb Stark didn't lose a battle but died finally.Stannis had a heavy defeat in King's Landing but recovered and he does well in the North and has the support of the Iron Bank.What Daenerys faces in Meereen is not success even though she hasn't given a battle yet.Up to now she has much luck and her dragons help too.

[the trees have eyes]

If that's against me, that's a strawman. My Dany dislike has nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman. As I've stated in other threads, and won't go into full detail here, the plot armor around her is particularly jarring. Plans that at best appear like their guaranteed to fail somehow turn around and work out perfectly, either through sheer unbelievable levels of incompetence on the parts of her enemies, or through luck. She then engages in treachery after two agreements. I'm not big on lying treacherous people, regardless of the gender of the person. ,

I would agree that flaws are developing naturally out of how she's ruling. Aside from a perverted sense of justice in my eyes (crucifixtions, post sack rulings, condoning torture), I don't have a big a problem with her rule, as it doesn't feel contrived. As far as her dragons seeing her conquer Westeros no doubt (I'm assuming you mean that all 3 will be the deciding force, I say bullshit. Aegon conquered Westeros with an army, and 3 large controllable dragons to help that Army. Dany has an army made up of foreigners who have no experience facing the armored Westerosi or a truly disciplined force of well commanded warriors. Her dragons are small enough, a random incursion into the equivalent of a football stadium had one sustain wounds. They are not the unstoppable forces of destruction you appear to be making them.

As far as the only person in the world who can have them, we'll see. There sure are a lot of plans to steal one for her to end up keeping them all permanently.

I really struggle with your assessment of her character here. You think that tricking the Astapori and the Yunkai makes her a lying and treacherous character beyond redemption? Do you consider her to be that kind of person?

I guess you're free to place your sympathies where you choose but feeling sorry for the slavers is....odd.

And the perverted sense of justice, well, we'll have to disagree on that as well.

I find all the plot armour or gifts criticism really besides the point as well - GRRM has an arc for all his characters and they all have highs and lows along the road to where he wants them. Tyrion got parachuted in as Hand of the King, and Jon got elected the boy commander of the NW by the simplest bit of politicking by Sam and a bit of mummery with a raven in a cauldron. At the end of ADWD Jon is getting stabbed and Tyrion is a slave - I'm sure their stories aren't done yet and GRRM will write them where he wants them to go. But plot armour? Can you imagine how boring the story would be if every time a character was in a tricky situation or needed a game-changing development (hello Starks = Wargs, Arya meet Jaqan Hgar) he axed it?

As to the OP well, what is it about a big military defeat for Dany that you are looking forward to? The deaths of a few thousand Unsullied or freedmen? The shattering of the hopes of the slaves in Volantis that Vogarro's whore told Tyrion to relay to her, "Tell her we are waiting, tell her to come soon". The slaughter of her forces before a tidal wave of ice zombies marching relentlessly through Westeros? There will be setbacks no doubt to add to the drama but I don't relish a big defeat for her the way you seem to - thousands of deaths so she can lose or suffer. There's a much bigger picture here.

[RoamingRonin]

Robb Stark won all of his battles and his still lost his war. The Lannisters lost tons of battles and still held the throne. So I don't get why it's necessary for her to lose a battle just so she doesn't end the series with a Flawless Victory. You people complain endlessly about her failures so, yeah... I don't get it.

It'll be interesting if she does lose a major battle and the result has negative consequences for other characters or for Westeros.

But, listen: If you're a Baratheon supporter it's unnecessary to attack Dany just because you decided to side with a loser. Yes, the Baratheons are losers. They've been losing since book one and all the fun ones are dead. People criticize Dany for Astapor but that's just one city. Look at what the Baratheon reign has given the 7-kingdoms. And Stannis is not done destroying the realm and plunging it further into debt.

Instead of hoping the world changes to suit the needs of your character, why not just drop him? Why stick with the losing side? You've got plenty of other characters to support.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I agree with this, in general.

But I don't think her power is unfettered. Her military power kind of is, but Meereen shows that it's not enough; on the contrary, it has the setback that it creates the illusion of unfettered power that leads to underestimate the other forms of power. The Meereen experience could be read as a rather harsh awakening on the matter and it remains to be seen if Dany received the message.

I don't believe she has to have a defeat on the battlefield. Isn't it a sort of defeat that success tastes like ashes?

There's an other problem as well: as I see it, her meteoric rise to power has a hidden drawback.

Acquiring power little by little is an educating proccess in itself. It allows (or rather, it forces) one to be aware on the limits of his/her power, to acknowledge that there are always opposing forces that must be taken into account and generally, to be careful in using it. Dany was deprived of those lessons.

Many readers complain about the unrealistic way that she got her power (stupid antagonists) and I would agree that this subplot requires suspension of disbelief more than we are used to in ASOIAF, but I believe there was a purpose in that, ie giving the character too much power but not the means to know how to use it properly. She's doing allright short term, but this is as far as she can get (for now).

So IMO the question that will determine her future is, which lessons will Dany choose to learn.

I agree with your view aswell, I think I went a little extreme using "unfettered"

I agree, her rise to power can also be symbolically matched with the growth of her dragons especially Drogon. They grow everyday but they didn't receive any education, just like Dany. Drogon received his first form of "education" when Dany tamed him in Daznak's pit with a whip, Dany also relates to that in the Dothraki sea when she said "Drogon had bent the whip and so must she" so symbolically as Drogon is going through his first form of education Dany's also happens on the D. sea, where she is now ready to bend to the whip.

Her whip strapped on to her was also whipping her as she walked that could also work as a metaphor of her being whipped in a way like Drogon, ;)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

....Drogon received his first form of "education" when Dany tamed him in Daznak's pit with a whip, Dany also relates to that in the Dothraki sea when she said "Drogon had bent the whip and so must she" so symbolically as Drogon is going through his first form of education Dany's also happens on the D. sea, where she is now ready to bend to the whip....

I'm not sure what kind of education they are getting there though, I guess we'll have to wait for TWOW to see where they are getting at.

Drogon accepted her as his rider, but he hasn't exactly bent to her will... In a sense, there is a parallel with the younger untrained Stark wargs and their wolves - the wolf is in command, not the human.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Unnecessary. I don't think Dany needs a military defeat for any other purposes than wishful thinking of some of her most passionate haters. Robb has proven that winning battles doesn't win you a war. It just seems idiotic to expect that for reasons of personal taste. And she has plenty of lost and failures as it is - It just screams hatred rather than sound critic.

To many things to adress, here and in general.

• Its not a matter or personal taste, and that was not the point of the thread. Read carefuly before calling someone idiotic, Daenerys forces never losing a battle is a fact, whatever I like it or not, and the point of the thread is to discuss if she would continue to be flawless AT THE BATTLEFIELD for the rest of the books or not. In my personal opinión, it would border with bad writting, when every other competent character ends up losing a cuple of times, while she with no militar knolwdge whatsoever keeps winning,

If the title is not clear enough, I must insist Im talking about the freaking battlefield. I do not denay she had lots of other seatbacks and rought times in general.

Robb Starks plan, in his own words FAILED in the big picture. His global plan failed at the Ford; he doesnt need to be in personal command of all his units to consider him " lose ", as Daenerys is not in front of her forces either. (I think he was bluffing, but whatever). In his maps, he also LOST the north and his capital city, and lots of men in duskendale. He is the general commander of all this forces, and the loses go to him. Otherwise, we could not give Daenerys any credit in none of her battles since she does nothing than let others decide for her. As she gets the credit for Barristan, Daario, or Mormonts victories, Robb has to deal with Cassel or Glover f...g it up.

For crying out loud. SHE HAS TEENAGE DRAGONS. She is not Aegon the conqueror mounted on a houndred years perfecty trainned Belarion. Aditionally, she can ride ONLY ONE DRAGON, and theres nobody in sight with Valyrian blood (Faegon, Jon, Stannis) likely to fight for her side. And Im not even talking about the freaking horn. Theres no way to compare this to Aegon and his two sisters. A cuple of norths gigants probably can break the dragons neck at this point. By the way, we are in a freaking blizzary Winter.

So much rage got me tired, Im going to stop by now. The "idiotic" Smart guy pissed me of.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I understand what the words mean when people say things like "plot armor" and "plot gifts" but I also have to go wtf? Stories have protagonists, and they tend to get lucky (or unlucky) breaks. That's just what happens in stories. You're reading a story, you know. There's no law that says things have to be equally fair to all characters: they won't be.

Some things happen to some characters; other things happen to other characters. Got it? The author makes those decisions. They're not random decisions. They're based on what the author thinks will be entertaining, or sometimes what the author thinks will bang on some political or cultural gong the author wants to sound.

The concept that people get all worked up because characters in a fiction aren't treated equally to each other is a new one on me, and I struggle a bit to follow it. It must be a function of a series that reaches a mass audience and the frustration to some members of the mass audience at having to wait for a resolution. People want to go ahead and get invested in some kind of outcome now, even though there isn't one to get invested in.

I've personally had bad luck in the past at reading books or watching movies where I went in with some kind of expectation. My personal rule is to keep an open mind and don't over-anticipate, and it's slightly harder during a long, frustrating wait for a sequel but far from impossible.

[Hodor's Dragon]

To many things to adress, here and in general.

• Its not a matter or personal taste, and that was not the point of the thread. Read carefuly before calling someone idiotic, Daenerys forces never losing a battle is a fact, whatever I like it or not, and the point of the thread is to discuss if she would continue to be flawless AT THE BATTLEFIELD for the rest of the books or not. In my personal opinión, it would border with bad writting, when every other competent character ends up losing a cuple of times, while she with no militar knolwdge whatsoever keeps winning,

Thanks for posting such a great example of exactly what I was talking about even as I was composing my post!

This just makes no sense to me. Some stories have heroes who always win. Sometimes authors have the winner benefit from sheer luck. Neither way should be criticized as "bad writing" merely because one character in a story is more successful than others. There are a million different kinds of points authors could be making by doing things like that, and the bottom-line question is not whether characters are treated "fairly," it's whether the story is entertaining.

[RoamingRonin]

To many things to adress, here and in general.

• Its not a matter or personal taste, and that was not the point of the thread.

This is from your OP: "As a Baratheon supporter, I just cant wait for the first time Daenerys is bitting the dust in a big, important, clear military defeat where she gets her ass kicked."

That's personal taste

ETA: I think complaining about her victories misses the point of her arc. Conquering is easy. Ruling is the problem. That's what it's all about.

[Malik Ambar]

The Others will be her first major setback. Not just her but the entire avengers - esqe built up of the forces of good this series is heading towards. Remember, if the dragons can hurt the others, the others can hurt the dragons too.