Renly was about to defeat Stannis, right?

[Lord Hanna]

Because you can defend against a direwolf, or see the dragon coming and flee. The same can't be said for the shadow queef.

You can't defend against a foe attacking you from behind during a major battle...unfair? Shouldn't do it? lol

[Nyrhex]

It is interesting how Stannis's knowledge level seems to change depending on the criteria. For example, it wasn't stupid of him to attack Renly because he knew Mel could take out Renly, but when it comes to the charge of kinslaying then he is ignorant of Mel's ability to kill Renly.

Stannis did not sail to SE, thinking that Mel would kill Renly. He knew of two visions, who would later turn out to be one. Stannis going to SE, where his brother would die and his bannermen would join Stannis, and another where Renly attacks Stannis on the Blackwater. From Stannis' interaction with Davos it's clear that he does not see Mel's part in Renly's death. There are also no clear links between Renly and Penrose. Stannis makes no mention of a vision of the scene, like with Renly. Stannis also claims to be asleep at the time of Renly's death, and brings Mel and Devan as witnesses. Stannis has no problem to use, what he believes is magic, against his enemies. So why hide the shadow now, yet accept revealing it later with Penrose?

Why would Stannis go to SE on a vision? Without more information, it is not clear. It is unlike the Stannis that people remember from before the events of the books. From the Cressen POV it is clear that Mel knew of Cressen's plan, and it may be that she informed Stannis beforehand. Stannis' actions before and during the dinner are unlike his usual self. He tries to keep Cressen away, without outright saying so. Ordering that he not be awoken, allows him to be mocked, etc. If this is a test of Mel's visions, it can explain why Stannis would sail to SE with a far smaller host than Renly's.

From the tactical POV, the battle can be won, even if Stannis is thinking that the vision means that he wins by conventional means.

[Minsc]

Stannis did not sail to SE, thinking that Mel would kill Renly.

Then Stannis is an idiot, to just sail to Storm's End and start a fight with Renly despite having no idea about how Renly is going to be taken out solely on a vision.

Stannis also claims to be asleep at the time of Renly's death, and brings Mel and Devan as witnesses. Stannis has no problem to use, what he believes is magic, against his enemies. So why hide the shadow now, yet accept revealing it later with Penrose?

Because Renly is his kin, thus just straight up mentioning he used black magic to kill his brother will make him look bad.

From the Cressen POV it is clear that Mel knew of Cressen's plan, and it may be that she informed Stannis beforehand. Stannis' actions before and during the dinner are unlike his usual self. He tries to keep Cressen away, without outright saying so. Ordering that he not be awoken, allows him to be mocked, etc.

I don't see how Stannis's actions weren't unlike his usual self, seeing how his default mode seems to be acting like a dick and that was just him acting like a dick to Cressen.

[Nyrhex]

Then Stannis is an idiot, to just sail to Storm's End and start a fight with Renly despite having no idea about how Renly is going to be taken out solely on a vision.

Because Renly is his kin, thus just straight up mentioning he used black magic to kill his brother will make him look bad.

I don't see how Stannis's actions weren't unlike his usual self, seeing how his default mode seems to be acting like a dick and that was just him acting like a dick to Cressen.

1. If Stannis knew of the vision that Cressen was to die that night, despite Stannis' efforts to cancel it, it fits with his conversation with Davos later about how Penrose is already dead. If Stannis is planning on battle (and we see his men forming up and he himself claimed he was meant to be armed and mounted by that time, but could not be woken up), a vision that simply says "you will win" is good enough. Other than numbers, Stannis picked the ground, time, and had time to prepare.

2. Stannis is open enough with Cressen that he heared his council, and would now hear Selyse's, despite Cressen protesting against Fratricide. Stannis makes it clear that Renly is a traitor, and does not feel bound by any arbitrary taboo on not killing kin.

3. Cressen makes it clear that it is not how Stannis is usually. He allows his wife to mock his father figure. Not exactly the Stannis that we see in the books. There is a difference between being blunt with Slynt that by rights Slynt should be dead by now, and that the cook would do a better job, and mocking Cressen with the antler helmet.

[Game Of Thrones]

It is interesting how Stannis's knowledge level seems to change depending on the criteria. For example, it wasn't stupid of him to attack Renly because he knew Mel could take out Renly, but when it comes to the charge of kinslaying then he is ignorant of Mel's ability to kill Renly.

Mel said Renly would die in SE. Not that she would kill her.

[Game Of Thrones]

Then Stannis is an idiot, to just sail to Storm's End and start a fight with Renly despite having no idea about how Renly is going to be taken out solely on a vision.

Except that this woman's visions always come true and she can survive poisoning. This is a world with magic we're talking about here.

Because Renly is his kin, thus just straight up mentioning he used black magic to kill his brother will make him look bad.

So you're assuming he knew about "black" magic (btw, how are shadows any blacker than wargs?) without evidence? You're supposed to build theories based on evidence, not build evidence based on theories.

I don't see how Stannis's actions weren't unlike his usual self, seeing how his default mode seems to be acting like a dick and that was just him acting like a dick to Cressen.

Umm... Stannis says Cressen was like a father to him, he generally tells people directly when they aren't needed, and he mocks Cressen even though he "never understood mockery".

[Winterfell is Burning]

It is interesting how Stannis's knowledge level seems to change depending on the criteria. For example, it wasn't stupid of him to attack Renly because he knew Mel could take out Renly, but when it comes to the charge of kinslaying then he is ignorant of Mel's ability to kill Renly.

Well, to be fair, it's not the best written part in the book, which can lead to confusion.

That said, he went after his brother because Mel had a vision that Renly would win if Stannis didn't went there, and also told him that Renly would die if he didn't ally with Stannis. But she didn't say she would be the one to kill him or how.

In the context of Westeros it's much more honourable to kill a man in open battle rather than using your foreign witch to kill them.

And the Dothraki think it's dishonorable to hide in castles, so what?

Anyway, no one is saying using a shadowbaby was the most honorable action he could take (although, like I said, he didn't knew exactly what would happen), but it's more honorable than Renly crowning himself planning on usurping and likely killing his brother and his nephews.

[Ingelheim]

When people keep saying the shadowbaby is black magic...then what's what Daenerys did with Mirri to get her dragons?

IIRC, making a shadowbaby doesn't need blood. It's just sex.

[Victor227]

Stannis literally had no viable options of what to do with his army at the time he went to Storm's End. He didn't go there because he thought that he could take Renly's army in a straight-up fight, he went there because he had reliable visions on his side, and he he had no choice but to follow them.

That does not speak well of his ability to take Renly in a conventional battle. Storm's End was not 'chosen ground', it was ground that Stannis literally had no other option but to be standing on. If he went to King's Landing, he -might- have taken the city, but he wouldn't have been able to hold it against either Tywin at Harrenhall, or Renly at Bitterbridge. If he attacked either of them? Likewise, he lacks the manpower to present a viable threat to either of them. Landing and trying to rally support? There's no support to rally, as Stannis does not bargain for what's his.

Seeing as he rejected Cressen's plan to try to win the Vale, or negotiate with the Starks/Tullys, his only choice is to take the manpower of another faction for his own, and Meli gave him quite literally the only shred of hope in doing so through her vision. He wasn't going to get into a battle at Storm's End, he wasn't even there for a battle. He was there for a last-ditch gamble to win Renly's army for his own.

This entire subject is based on Stannis' gamble failing. I have no doubt he intended to die on his feet, grinding his teeth all the while, but a battle with Renly's forces would have doomed him no matter what. Even if he had the weeks needed to build a system of earthworks that Renly wasn't warned about from the castle literally overlooking Stannis' camp, (the alternative, that Storm's End was built in a place where it's impossible to relieve the castle from sieges due to a massive terrain advantage for besiegers just seems too absurd to mention), the only way to for Stannis to win Renly's army is to kill him, and he's in high quality plate, and not leading from the front.

Stannis would have to butcher his way through half the chivalry of the Reach and Stormlands to reach Renly, and even then he'd still need to cut off his retreat and kill him. Stannis doesn't have the horsepower to pursue a rout efficiently, not without the risk of it turning against him, so even if he could force a break, there's no guarantee that Renly's army wouldn't just reform and go in on foot to stomp him into the ground the next day through sheer weight of numbers. Renly did give Loras, who is relatively unimportant, the vanguard, so any blame could easily be shifted to him in the event of some unseen magic-goat-trail trap, especially posthumously, and then Randyll Tarly could lead the next wave against whatever fortifications Stannis could assemble.

So really, Stannis' only hope against Renly is that he and his men were digging a massive trench network designed to stop horses, Storm's End does not report this to Renly, again, literally overlooking him, Loras charges right into this trap (a bit of sun-glare is not -that- blinding), after taking losses in the vanguard Renly's army does not dismount and continues to charge heedlessly into a grinder, when the amount of casualties needed to break the force is reached they run away dismounted so that Stannis' meager horse can break through to Renly and kill him, Renly's army does not turn around on Stannis' badly outnumbered and overextended mounted force, and Renly is caught and killed by them.

Assuming he pulls this off, he's still butchering a good portion of the host he wanted to win for himself, losing his own men in the process, and there's no assurance that they won't just turn on him by going to Joffrey afterward like they wound up doing. Stannis came to Storm's End in hopes that Renly would bend the knee and give him his army, or he would die suddenly and unexpectedly, and he could take that army during the shock by virtue of being 'the last Baratheon'.

[HexMachina]

Mel said Renly would die in SE. Not that she would kill her.

Something he ate, maybe? Old age? Did he stub his toe? Influenza?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Something he ate, maybe? Old age? Did he stub his toe? Influenza?

Accidentally brutally stabbed himself in the stomach while shaving. Or, very sadly, accidentally brutally cut his head off while combing his hair.

[HexMachina]

Accidentally brutally stabbed himself in the stomach while shaving. Or, very sadly, accidentally brutally cut his head off while combing his hair.

Tragic

body found floating in the docks...

[Minsc]

1. If Stannis knew of the vision that Cressen was to die that night, despite Stannis' efforts to cancel it, it fits with his conversation with Davos later about how Penrose is already dead. If Stannis is planning on battle (and we see his men forming up and he himself claimed he was meant to be armed and mounted by that time, but could not be woken up), a vision that simply says "you will win" is good enough. Other than numbers, Stannis picked the ground, time, and had time to prepare.

Except that this woman's visions always come true and she can survive poisoning. This is a world with magic we're talking about here.

And he picked terrible ground, time, and had nothing to really prepare with. Simply, relying only on the promise that "you will win" is idiotic.

So you're assuming he knew about "black" magic (btw, how are shadows any blacker than wargs?) without evidence?

Love how Stanstans only defense for the shadow baby is whining about wargs and so forth. No, I said either he knew and is a straight up kinslayer or an idiot who went into a losing situation on a hunch.

3. Cressen makes it clear that it is not how Stannis is usually. He allows his wife to mock his father figure. Not exactly the Stannis that we see in the books. There is a difference between being blunt with Slynt that by rights Slynt should be dead by now, and that the cook would do a better job, and mocking Cressen with the antler helmet.

Umm... Stannis says Cressen was like a father to him, he generally tells people directly when they aren't needed, and he mocks Cressen even though he "never understood mockery".

Cressen has a raging bias in favor of Stannis, simply Stannis was acting perfectly in character seeing how he is almost always acting like a dick. Shit, he straight up calls Gilly a whore when he discovers the parentage of her child.