Hardhome theories

[Archmaester Drew]

I believe it was Tze who had the theory (or worked off of the theory/elaborated on the theory) that what happened at Hardhome was a failed Valyrian invasion that failed because wargs in that part of the North tried/were able to take over the dragons and battle the riders for control of them. Those fights (warged dragon vs. dragon still under Valyrian control) would explain the place being charred over. If Valyria once tried to invade Westeros and failed spectacularly, it would also explain why they never tried to do it again until Aegon (who made sure to land much further south).

Tyrion wonders why the Valyrians never tried to conquer Westeros despite all its wealth and resources. "They knew what was there," etc. Yes, they did know what was there, which is why they stayed the hell away.

If the First Men could skinchange with the dragons, then why did Hardhome get destroyed so thoroughly?

:)

[Bryanfury]

If the First Men could skinchange with the dragons, then why did Hardhome get destroyed so thoroughly?

:)

Because presumably the First Men didn't warg every single dragon?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If the First Men could skinchange with the dragons, then why did Hardhome get destroyed so thoroughly?

:)

Wargs are rare. It's possible that there were more dragons than wargs. Meaning you'd have warged dragons fighting dragons ridden by Valyrians. If the wargs only had tenuous control over the dragons and the Valyrians were freaked the fuck out by having some of their dragons stolen out from under them, it stands to reason that the fighting may have caused more indiscriminate damage than it otherwise might have.

To steal from the Wiki:

The homes of the inhabitants of Hardhome were said to have burned with flames so high and hot that the watchers on the Wall far to the south thought that the sun was rising in from the north. ... Traders reported only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones ...

Now this is about Vhagar and Caraxes fight over the God's Eye:

So bright were the dragons' flames that smallfolk feared the sky was aflame.

And that was just from two dragons. What would the sky look like if a dozen or more were fighting in the air, possibly dragons that were even larger than Vhagar would have been?

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

My question is, why would the Faceless Men be concerned with Westeros now (other than to retrieve the horn)? They have no vendetta against the Westerosi as they did Valyria. It would seem that they would be more interested in Slaver's Bay or Volantis where slavery was still rampant if they were planning another such event.

:)

That I cannot honestly answer. Not with any textual basis anyways. Maybe there heard about Joramun and decided to go all Indiana Jones for an artifact and gave it a test drive. But hey, anyone's guess is as good as mine at this point.

[RoamingRonin]

The legend indicates that it wasn't until Hardhome started to become an actual town that things went bad. Perhaps the Children of the Forest didn't want Hardhome being the start of a new human civilization and shut it down. The Thenns have their own community but I don't recall trade between foreigners being mentioned. The Children might tolerate them because there's no risk of them expanding beyond their little community or introducing foreigners.

Or maybe the people of Hardhome began practicing new religions and some sort of ceremony went wrong.

The sky raining ashes is something that we don't hear about in other tales of battles involving dragons like on the Field of Fire or anywhere else during Aegon's invasion. A Valyrian invasion consisting of several dragons and riders doesn't seem like something that would go unnoticed especially if the Night's Watch could see the flames from afar. Traders talk about the devastation of Hardhome. Wouldn't they also mention a Valyrian fleet arriving and departing defeated? Or the remnants of a foreign fleet?

ETA: Hardhome doesn't even seem like a smart place to begin an invasion. The Wall blocks the way south. I could see Winterfell maybe but beyond the Wall? There's nothing there.

[Archmaester Drew]

Wargs are rare. It's possible that there were more dragons than wargs. Meaning you'd have warged dragons fighting dragons ridden by Valyrians. If the wargs only had tenuous control over the dragons and the Valyrians were freaked the fuck out by having some of their dragons stolen out from under them, it stands to reason that the fighting may have caused more indiscriminate damage than it otherwise might have.

That makes sense. Although if the Valyrians were to attack Westeros why would they travel all the way to Hardhome? It is nearly the same distance from Valyria to their most distant outpost, Dragonstone, as it is from Dragonstone to Hardhome. Surely there was somewhere more convenient to invade? (Also, how could Braavos have possibly remained hidden if Valyrians were flying dragons to Hardhome?

:)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That makes sense. Although if the Valyrians were to attack Westeros why would they travel all the way to Hardhome? It is nearly the same distance from Valyria to their most distant outpost, Dragonstone, as it is from Dragonstone to Hardhome. Surely there was somewhere more convenient to invade? (Also, how could Braavos have possibly remained hidden if Valyrians were flying dragons to Hardhome?

:)

Maybe they thought it would be less fortified and an easier invasion point? And strictly speaking, if there weren't wargs there, it would have been a decent place to invade and sweep down from the north, if they hadn't been stopped. What makes a better landing place? Somewhere more isolated, where you're less likely to meet resistance (assuming you don't know about wargs), or a place further south, where you're likelier to meet resistance?

Also by the time Hardhome was invaded, Braavos had already been revealed. It was founded 500 years before Aegon's Landing and unveiled itself a century after, so 400 years before Aegon invaded. Hardhome is dated to only 300 years before Aegon invaded. So the "How could Braavos remain hidden?" argument doesn't work, because Braavos wasn't hidden then.

[Archmaester Drew]

Maybe they thought it would be less fortified and an easier invasion point? And strictly speaking, if there weren't wargs there, it would have been a decent place to invade and sweep down from the north, if they hadn't been stopped. What makes a better landing place? Somewhere more isolated, where you're less likely to meet resistance (assuming you don't know about wargs), or a place further south, where you're likelier to meet resistance?

Also by the time Hardhome was invaded, Braavos had already been revealed. It was founded 500 years before Aegon's Landing and unveiled itself a century after, so 400 years before Aegon invaded. Hardhome is dated to only 300 years before Aegon invaded. So the "How could Braavos remain hidden?" argument doesn't work, because Braavos wasn't hidden then.

Why invade north of the Wall? That seems pointless. The Vale would have been sufficiently isolated to have made a good foothold (just like the Andals), or White Harbor. Also, I don't think you can skinchange a dragon. Unlike animals, or even people, I think they are too strong-willed and magical to boot.

If Braavos was known at the time, then why didn't they just invade Braavos?

:)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why invade north of the Wall? That seems pointless. The Vale would have been sufficiently isolated to have made a good foothold (just like the Andals), or White Harbor. Also, I don't think you can skinchange a dragon. Unlike animals, or even people, I think they are too strong-willed and magical to boot.

If Braavos was known at the time, then why didn't they just invade Braavos?

:)

I don't think they would've planned to stay North of the Wall, only land someplace that they thought would be isolated enough to make a foothold (which beyond the Wall would have been), before moving on. Landing in an isolated place means that they can get a foothold without facing any opposition. If they could fly the dragons over the Wall, that would allow them to move further south, assuming they could gain control of one of the Wall's working gates for anyone who was on foot.

I also disagree that dragons can't be warged. I think it's pretty strongly signaled that at the very least, someone's going to try to do it. GRRM's also been asked about it and declined to give a definitive answer other than, to paraphrase, "just wait and see." I also think that the visual description of the skies over Hardhome is a decent approximation of what the skies looked like when Vhagar and Caraxes fought; the higher level of brightness can be explained by there being much more than two dragons engaging in combat.

Braavos was made up of people who had already successfully defied Valyria and was a firmly established city by then. Why invade someone you know can stand up for themselves when it looks like the hicks further west are easier pickings?

It's a lot easier to nitpick at other people's ideas than it is to offer up any of your own, it seems. Or do you actually have any ideas about what happened and I missed them?

[Archmaester Drew]

I don't think they would've planned to stay North of the Wall, only land someplace that they thought would be isolated enough to make a foothold (which beyond the Wall would have been), before moving on. Landing in an isolated place means that they can get a foothold without facing any opposition. If they could fly the dragons over the Wall, that would allow them to move further south, assuming they could gain control of one of the Wall's working gates for anyone who was on foot.

I also disagree that dragons can't be warged. I think it's pretty strongly signaled that at the very least, someone's going to try to do it. GRRM's also been asked about it and declined to give a definitive answer other than, to paraphrase, "just wait and see." I also think that the visual description of the skies over Hardhome is a decent approximation of what the skies looked like when Vhagar and Caraxes fought; the higher level of brightness can be explained by there being much more than two dragons engaging in combat.

Braavos was made up of people who had already successfully defied Valyria and was a firmly established city by then. Why invade someone you know can stand up for themselves when it looks like the hicks further west are easier pickings?

It's a lot easier to nitpick at other people's ideas than it is to offer up any of your own, it seems. Or do you actually have any ideas about what happened and I missed them?

I thought we were having a dialogue, sorry if it came-off as nit-picking. :)

I favor the Faceless Men hypothesis, as suggested in the OP. I find it unreasonable for Valyrians to be invading north of the Wall. Targaryens conquered nearly all of Westeros with three dragons. I don't think the Valyrians would have been that cautious. But I am certainly open to other ideas or counterpoints.

:)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I thought we were having a dialogue, sorry if it came-off as nit-picking. :)

I favor the Faceless Men hypothesis, as suggested in the OP. I find it unreasonable for Valyrians to be invading north of the Wall. Targaryens conquered nearly all of Westeros with three dragons. I don't think the Valyrians would have been that cautious. But I am certainly open to other ideas or counterpoints.

:)

And I find it unreasonable that the Faceless Men would torch a place for absolutely no good reason, killing a ton of people as a "trial run." That, to me, makes far less sense than the idea that the Valyrians thought landing in an isolated place would be better for an invasion than a more populated place where they'd face opposition. Potato, potahto.

Aegon also landed well south of the Wall, where there were far fewer wargs. He didn't even have to go to the actual North; Torrhen knelt in the Riverlands. Acting like his situation is the same as what the Valyrians would have faced if they landed at Hardhome isn't really accurate.

If you already favored a hypothesis, just say so. I find it annoying when people phrase a question in an open-ended way when they already have their minds made up, but that's me.

[Archmaester Drew]

And I find it unreasonable that the Faceless Men would torch a place for absolutely no good reason, killing a ton of people as a "trial run." Potato, potahto.

Aegon also landed well south of the Wall, where there were far fewer wargs. He didn't even have to go to the actual North; Torrhen knelt in the Riverlands. Acting like his situation is the same as what the Valyrians would have faced if they landed at Hardhome isn't really accurate.

If you already favored a hypothesis, just say so. I find it annoying when people phrase a question in an open-ended way when they already have their minds made up, but that's me.

My mind was not, and is not, made up. I hadn't even heard the hypothesis you offered until you posted it. Thus, I had some questions. I think it's an interesting idea, but I have some doubts about some aspects. :)

(Sorry, I'm new here and new to forums in general.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My mind was not, and is not, made up. I hadn't even heard the hypothesis you offered until you posted it. Thus, I had some questions. I think it's an interesting idea, but I have some doubts about some aspects. :)

(Sorry, I'm new here and new to forums in general.)

And I have answered every question you've posed.

However, other than the Wiki excerpt, I'm not sure why you think the Faceless Men idea is the best one. Such as why, for instance, you think they would be willing to murder hundreds or thousands of innocent people to "practice."

Sorry for being harsh. But I do encounter too many people who ask a question and then shit all over any answers before offering up their own, when they would have been better-served by just offering up their own hypothesis for debate.

[Archmaester Drew]

And I have answered every question you've posed.

However, other than the Wiki excerpt, I'm not sure why you think the Faceless Men idea is the best one. Such as why, for instance, you think they would be willing to murder hundreds or thousands of innocent people to "practice."

Sorry for being harsh. But I do encounter too many people who ask a question and then shit all over any answers before offering up their own, when they would have been better-served by just offering up their own hypothesis for debate.

Thank you for your replies, as I said, I hadn't even heard of an alternate theory until your post. :)

The Faceless Men feel that death is a gift, perhaps this was their rationale?

:)

[GRRMian]

Good idea!

My first explanation on the boards in fact. Valyrians stayed away from Westeros because of....the CotF! They were the Original Gangsters of warging, very much in tune with the "magic" of the world, considered one of the Old Races (giants, dragons, etc.). The First Men picked up on this protection taking up the "Old Gods" during the Age of Heroes (after the Pact). Since the Andals (bastards of Valyria) came with the Seven and cleared out all traces of Old Gods south of the Neck, it paved the way for Aegon's Conquest. They had the Dragonstone outpost but if they had encounters like potentially how Hardhome went down (Old God protection of warging), they knew that Westeros was off-limits. Heck maybe even thought it was cursed, Valyria's Valyria if you will.....

Thoughts?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thank you for your replies, as I said, I hadn't even heard of an alternate theory until your post. :)

The Faceless Men feel that death is a gift, perhaps this was their rationale?

:)

The people who come to them in the House of Black and White do so willingly, don't they? Or they kill people they've been hired to kill. Unless the people at Hardhome were the target of a hit or specifically asked for the "gift," that explanation doesn't make any sense to me, either.

ETA: It's also possible that the Valyrians put the hurt on Hardhome before leaving (i.e. they managed to fight off or kill the warged dragons) as punishment, and that the stories about people being sold into slavery are true. If Braavos was observing this, the Doom may have been its payback for what would have been a pretty staggering atrocity: doing to the Valyrians what the Valyrians did to Hardhome. So the Doom and Hardhome may be linked, just not in the way you'd think.

[Arya Stark Rules]

I dont think the theory of a failed Valyrian invasion makes sense, I remember GRRM said somewhere that there has never been an incident of a warg ever warging a dragon. And an important event like that would obviously be recorded in history.

The most logical reason why the Valyrians didn't go west is because warfare across the sea is not an easy thing to do.And they expanded east before west.

[GRRMian]

What about Dragonstone? And thoughts on CotF being a ward against the Dragonlords from the Old freehold?

[Squab]

I read somewhere in here that the wall might have been put up by the others to keep men out. in that case could it have been the others that trashed Hardhome? it made sense to me as its above the wall and there aint much else up there

[Arya Stark Rules]

What about Dragonstone? And thoughts on CotF being a ward against the Dragonlords from the Old freehold?

The CotF I believe have only had war with the first men in the past.