Hardhome theories

[RainGhost]

I always thought that Hardhome and Valyria were destroyed by volcanoes. Or is that too boring an answer? Medieval people probably don't know what volcanoes are and would think it's some curse. Ash raining down fits with this theory.

[Starkfaithful85]

From the WOIAF excerpt, Valyria fought with the Rhoynar's and brought 200 dragons.

The problem here is that Valyria was the greatest empire in the known world at that point. Any of their moves are going to be highly watched both for tales and as politacal and military defense for other nations, meaning if Valyria is attempting an overseas conquest it's going to be highly publicized. Even if has disappeared completely in Hardome, the story of Valyria's first conquest overseas isn't going to disappear even in Essos, people will definetly take note of that.

The author said there is no precedent so I don't think there is any stock in this theory, so I guess agree to disagree as you said

if I am not mistaken the valyrians and the Rhoynish was written by Elio Garcia and not GRRM, which could imply that the methods of old valyria's war machine may not be that important or applicable to the story

[Lykos]

Maybe they thought it would be less fortified and an easier invasion point? And strictly speaking, if there weren't wargs there, it would have been a decent place to invade and sweep down from the north, if they hadn't been stopped. What makes a better landing place? Somewhere more isolated, where you're less likely to meet resistance (assuming you don't know about wargs), or a place further south, where you're likelier to meet resistance?

Also by the time Hardhome was invaded, Braavos had already been revealed. It was founded 500 years before Aegon's Landing and unveiled itself a century after, so 400 years before Aegon invaded. Hardhome is dated to only 300 years before Aegon invaded. So the "How could Braavos remain hidden?" argument doesn't work, because Braavos wasn't hidden then.

Apple, don´t rely upon the wiki. :) Cat of the Canals.

"Its very existence had been a secret for a century, the girl had learned: its location had been hidden thrice that long."

[Ser Lepus]

Apple, don´t rely upon the wiki. :) Cat of the Canals.

"Its very existence had been a secret for a century, the girl had learned: its location had been hidden thrice that long."

I know it's fantasy, but, how is that even possible? Once they revealed themselves and started to trade with other countries, how could they avoid people deducing the general location of Braavos from the routes of their ships? Just the amount of ships that would be needed to provide food and wood to Braavos would ensure that the seas around the city would be the most transited in the world. And if they relied on the neighbouring lands as a source of food and wood, word of Braavos's location would just go from mouth to ear until reaching the rest of the world.

Unless Braavos was a small town for most of its history, and their trading fleet was like a dozen galleys or so, but that's not the impression I get.

[Lykos]

Yes, it´s bugging me too. That´s why I wondered,

<snip>

Now who would have build this city?

My favorite guesses would be traders from Braavos, which was still hidden at that time, and / or Ibben to have a storing place for the waletrane oil closer to the ports in the south.

<snip>

[Ser Lepus]

What is more, ships in the ASOIAF tend to sail close to the coast, so any ship coming from Ibben, Lorath or Sarnosh to anywhere in the Narrow Sea would pass just in front of Braavos. And if Braavos sank every ship that came close, that would just attract everybody's attention to that area.

[Lykos]

Nah, the traffic is the problem. They needed a trading port someplace else and have their own sailors, who know the lagoon, being cautios.

"Nor would the Braavosi cut the pines that covered the outlying islands around their great lagoon and acted as windbreaks to shield them from storms." Sam in Feast.

The trees also shield from sight.

[Ser Lepus]

Yeah, but what I mean is that they don't even had the excuse of being in a corner of the world that wasn't frequented by ships from other countries. The Ibbenese, Lorathi and the people from Sarnosh had to notice that there always were a lot of Braavosi ships around there.

[Lykos]

Maybe they did and made some sort of agreement, maybe Hardhome was a joint venture. :dunno:

Hardhome always reminded me of an old legend about "the baltic Atlantis" Vineta. Some of the probable locations, Barth and Wolin, have also been pirate harbours and to some extent hidden, but of course nowhere near the scale of Braavos. It wouldn´t be the first use of hyperbole in the story.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Nah, the traffic is the problem. They needed a trading port someplace else and have their own sailors, who know the lagoon, being cautios.

"Nor would the Braavosi cut the pines that covered the outlying islands around their great lagoon and acted as windbreaks to shield them from storms." Sam in Feast.

The trees also shield from sight.

Are those trees taller than the Titan of Braavos?

[Lykos]

Nope, that wasn´t built yet at that time. Cat of Canals in Feast.

"Men may whisper of the Faceless Men of Braavos, but we are older than the Secret City. Before the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero. before the Founding, we were."

[Universal Sword Donor]

Nope, that wasn´t built yet at that time. Cat of Canals in Feast.

"Men may whisper of the Faceless Men of Braavos, but we are older than the Secret City. Before the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero. before the Founding, we were."

That gives zero timing other than Braavos is older than the Titan, which is obvious. No idea whether the Titan was built before they revealed themselves or Hardhome was blown up.

[Falstaff_Stark]

I know it's fantasy, but, how is that even possible? Once they revealed themselves and started to trade with other countries, how could they avoid people deducing the general location of Braavos from the routes of their ships? Just the amount of ships that would be needed to provide food and wood to Braavos would ensure that the seas around the city would be the most transited in the world. And if they relied on the neighbouring lands as a source of food and wood, word of Braavos's location would just go from mouth to ear until reaching the rest of the world.

Unless Braavos was a small town for most of its history, and their trading fleet was like a dozen galleys or so, but that's not the impression I get.

refugees from a ruined civilization hide and found a city with canals that is almost inaccessible by land.

It sounds a lot like Venice being founded by survivors of the Huns destroying Aquileva.

[Ser Lepus]

refugees from a ruined civilization hide and found a city with canals that is almost inaccessible by land.

It sounds a lot like Venice being founded by survivors of the Huns destroying Aquileva.

Venice was never a secret city. The original settlers maybe were trying to hide, but once Venice became a proper village, its location soon became known to everybody. It kept being a place of refuge because it was easily defensible, not because it was hidden.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Venice was never a secret city. The original settlers maybe were trying to hide, but once Venice became a proper village, its location soon became known to everybody. It kept being a place of refuge because it was easily defensible, not because it was hidden.

Yeah I'm not real sure there's been an earth equivalent of Braavos.

[Game Of Thrones]

Hardhome? No idea. Neither the FM theory nor the Invasion theory works for me.

[Talking Hodor]

While I think the possibility of a dragon in the north is kind of cool, I don't really think that Hardhome can be anything but a volcanic eruption.

Perhaps it's both. Dun dun DUNNNN!!!

[The Snark of Winterfell]

I always wondered what happened at Hardhome too. I think volcano, but can't rule out a dragon, there was some interplay between the dragons and volcano in the Doom of Valyria.

As to the dragons, I think Cannibal was/is on Skagos and Sheepstealer was/is in the Vale. I say was/is because I'm not too sure about the lifespan and hibernation of dragons either.

I believe Sheepstealer is on the Vale because of this passage from TWOIAF, which I find pretty persuasive.

(I've never done a spoiler tag, so hopefully this works out)

Amongst the Burned Med, a youth must give some part of his body to the fire to prove his courage before he can be deemed a man. This practice might have originated in the years after the Dance of the Dragons, some masters believe, when an offshoot clan of the Painted Dogs were said to have worshipped a fire-witch in the mountains, sending their boys to bring her gifts and risk the flames of the dragon she commanded to prove their manhood TWOIAF, Vale Chapter

I think the above passage is clearly talking about Sheepstealer and Nettles.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

Sorry don't think that worked

[The Sword of the Evening]

Seems like the most logical explanation is a volcano, but I have learned to expected the unexpected.

What if the Valyrians destroyed Hardhome thinking it was Braavos (wanting revenge for the slave rebellion)?