True Revenge

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Yes, HS had Ned in mind, and many others... Right...

No, her walk of penance was for having sex. Her trial is where the guilt of other crimes will be determined whether she is guilty or fault. Arguing that this wasn't about her having sex is like arguing that Avada Kedavra killed Ned.

As much as I cannot affirm 100% that the HS didn't punish Cersei for sleeping with dudes, I ask for the right to tell you that you also can't give me 100% reason just because she slept with dudes. I mean, would the HS think a bitch of her because she slept with dudes outside the bondages of marriage, sure he would, but he also can be thinking of Ned, of his predecessor, of her pride, of a lot of things. I don't mean to be rude, and apologize in advance if I seem so, but I don't see a man as pious as the HS being so much of a hypocrit as to tell Cersei it wasn't a sin, and then punish her for it.

Here is the quote I'm referring to, where he tells her it isn't a sin:

"These are common sins," he said. "The wickedness of widows is well-known, and all women are wantons at heart, given to using their wiles and their beauty to work their wills on men. There is no treason here, so long as you did not stray from your marriage bed whislt His Grace King Robert was still alive."

So yeah, if that is the penalty for a "common sin", I can't see the Faith lasting this long as a religion.

Just a little bit earlt on their conversation, though, the HS seems to show another of his weeping sores that Cersei caused:

"Forgiveness comes only from the gods. What of Ser Lancel, who was your cousin and your lord husband's squire? Did you take him into your bed to win his loyalty as well?"

"Lancel." Careful, she told herself, Lancel will have told him everything. "Lancel loved me. He was half a boy, but I never doubted his devotion to me or my son."

"And yet you still corrupted him."

So, these are some of my arguments to say that the Walk was not a penance only because of Cersei's bed activities. I will say again that I also think that it is a horrible way to teach someone a lesson, that it is sexist, and that it would provoke a revolution should it be used on the 21st century. But back then there was no such conscience, and it was still a horrible thing to do with a woman.

Just on a side note, it is a little ironic how Tywin paraded his father's paramour naked on the streets of Lannisport, just to have his daughter paraded naked in the streets of King's Landing. Quoting the most beloved character ot the fandoms, "heh". :)

[Mladen]

As much as I cannot affirm 100% that the HS didn't punish Cersei for sleeping with dudes, I ask for the right to tell you that you also can't give me 100% reason just because she slept with dudes. I mean, would the HS think a bitch of her because she slept with dudes outside the bondages of marriage, sure he would, but he also can be thinking of Ned, of his predecessor, of her pride, of a lot of things. I don't mean to be rude, and apologize in advance if I seem so, but I don't see a man as pious as the HS being so much of a hypocrit as to tell Cersei it wasn't a sin, and then punish her for it.

Here is the quote I'm referring to, where he tells her it isn't a sin:

So yeah, if that is the penalty for a "common sin", I can't see the Faith lasting this long as a religion.

Just a little bit earlt on their conversation, though, the HS seems to show another of his weeping sores that Cersei caused:

So, these are some of my arguments to say that the Walk was not a penance only because of Cersei's bed activities. I will say again that I also think that it is a horrible way to teach someone a lesson, that it is sexist, and that it would provoke a revolution should it be used on the 21st century. But back then there was no such conscience, and it was still a horrible thing to do with a woman.

Just on a side note, it is a little ironic how Tywin paraded his father's paramour naked on the streets of Lannisport, just to have his daughter paraded naked in the streets of King's Landing. Quoting the most beloved character ot the fandoms, "heh". :)

1. I suppose we can leave open space for interpretation here. But, from the things we do know, all of Cersei's actual crimes - adultery, regicide, incest etc... are to be trailed later. Walk of Shame was for her "transgression" of sleeping with men while being widow. She certainly wouldn't go that "easy" for adultery or regicide etc...

2. Back when? ASOIAF is not part of our history. And let we be clear, even though it depicts medieval setting, it is not OUR medieval ages. I suppose that dragons and ice zombies are the first clues :), but this is something people constantly forget. ASOIAF is not study of living in medieval ages, it is actually a contemporary piece for contemporary public where good and wrong isn't decided by, IDK, 16th century England principles, but by ours. So, when we discuss on meta level, like we do on this thread, we have no need to talk about what happened in Ottoman Empire in 16th Century, Spain in 15th etc... This, simply isn't OUR medieval ages.

3. Yes, it is interesting parallel and one that comes to mind very often... I am not buying the whole karma thing in ASOIAF, since it doesn't work that way, but indeed it's a thing for considering...

[LordStoneheart]

2. Back when? ASOIAF is not part of our history. And let we be clear, even though it depicts medieval setting, it is not OUR medieval ages. I suppose that dragons and ice zombies are the first clues :), but this is something people constantly forget. ASOIAF is not study of living in medieval ages, it is actually a contemporary piece for contemporary public where good and wrong isn't decided by, IDK, 16th century England principles, but by ours. So, when we discuss on meta level, like we do on this thread, we have no need to talk about what happened in Ottoman Empire in 16th Century, Spain in 15th etc... This, simply isn't OUR medieval ages.

:bowdown: :agree: :bowdown: :agree: :bowdown:

[Wmarshal]

I don't know what William is arguing, but HS didn't punish her, her gave her a choice, it was Kevan that pushed her for his ends.

[Mladen]

I don't know what William is arguing, but HS didn't punish her, her gave her a choice, it was Kevan that pushed her for his ends.

And how we would call "You can go only if you do Walk of Shame, or you can stay and we hope we will be kind to honor your rights"? Basically, Kevan did push her, but HS was the one who made that situation.

[Wmarshal]

HS didn't have to give her anything, no release of any kind, Kevan was the one who wanted Cersei brought down this way, if h pushed for her to join the holy orders HS would have granted it like Lancel.

[7th-key]

Similar to what Arakan said, i think revenge is corruptive, and it doesn't equal justice. I feel that it's the theme of Lady Stoneheart.

Revenge on Jaine for attempted murder of Bran

In the grand scheme of thing, Jaime got his hand chopped off, the one who let Bran drop. Want more blood?

While I agree that the walk of shame is a really terrible thing, everyone seems to accept it as normal so I don't think the High Septon should be considered evil for it,

Yeah, poking the nose in other people's bedroom and forcing them to live by your prudish ideas at the threat of public humiliation, is not evil...

In fact, one of the scenes I would have actually loved to see is Lyanna surviving and finding out Robert killed Rhaegar.

"Lyaaaaanaaaaaa... ♫ I've come to rescue youuuuu.... ♪".

Oh, the hilarity.

Awesome!

[Wmarshal]

Yeah, he tried to murder a little boy and now he can't walk.

[JonisHenryTudor]

1. I suppose we can leave open space for interpretation here. But, from the things we do know, all of Cersei's actual crimes - adultery, regicide, incest etc... are to be trailed later. Walk of Shame was for her "transgression" of sleeping with men while being widow. She certainly wouldn't go that "easy" for adultery or regicide etc...

2. Back when? ASOIAF is not part of our history. And let we be clear, even though it depicts medieval setting, it is not OUR medieval ages. I suppose that dragons and ice zombies are the first clues :), but this is something people constantly forget. ASOIAF is not study of living in medieval ages, it is actually a contemporary piece for contemporary public where good and wrong isn't decided by, IDK, 16th century England principles, but by ours. So, when we discuss on meta level, like we do on this thread, we have no need to talk about what happened in Ottoman Empire in 16th Century, Spain in 15th etc... This, simply isn't OUR medieval ages.

3. Yes, it is interesting parallel and one that comes to mind very often... I am not buying the whole karma thing in ASOIAF, since it doesn't work that way, but indeed it's a thing for considering...

You may have an argument if Martin didn't insist that his story was based on realistic ideas and ideals of the middle ages. But he did, so it is perfectly acceptable to bring history into the discussion when looking at certain elements. Other than dragons and ice zombies, nothing in this story is made up by Martin, all of it has some form of RW association. Whether it is weaponry, defense systems, castles, hierarchical order, laws, etc. No it isn't the English Middle Ages, but the English Middle Ages also functioned as the framework for this story legally, militarily, socially, and culturally.

I would never bring history into a series like the Mistborn Trilogy or the King Killer Chronicles because neither of those authors are putting their work out there as a reflection of realism and an association to specific peoples, places, and eras of history.

[LordStoneheart]

Similar to what Arakan said, i think revenge is corruptive, and it doesn't equal justice. I feel that it's the theme of Lady Stoneheart.

In the grand scheme of thing, Jaime got his hand chopped off, the one who let Bran drop. Want more blood?

I do because that also does not equal justice. Luckily the new and improved BWB will see to that.

[7th-key]

I do because that also does not equal justice. Luckily the new and improved BWB will see to that.

I don't quite see the BwB of being about justice. They are pretty much on blind revenge. Look what they were doing to Brienne.

[LordStoneheart]

I don't quite see the BwB of being about justice. They are pretty much on blind revenge. Look what they were doing to Brienne.

How was that revenge? It was a fair trial and the evidence was against her

[Wmarshal]

Who was serving the lannisters, had lannister blade, order lannister protection, and having a proud lannisterman squire. Oh and was moaning Jaime's name. Not seeing how SH was blind in this.

[Mladen]

You may have an argument if Martin didn't insist that his story was based on realistic ideas and ideals of the middle ages. But he did, so it is perfectly acceptable to bring history into the discussion when looking at certain elements. Other than dragons and ice zombies, nothing in this story is made up by Martin, all of it has some form of RW association. Whether it is weaponry, defense systems, castles, hierarchical order, laws, etc. No it isn't the English Middle Ages, but the English Middle Ages also functioned as the framework for this story legally, militarily, socially, and culturally.

I would never bring history into a series like the Mistborn Trilogy or the King Killer Chronicles because neither of those authors are putting their work out there as a reflection of realism and an association to specific peoples, places, and eras of history.

Actually, now you speak about setting... But the setting doesn't necessarily influence the moral of the story. This wasn't written for 15th century Englishmen, but readers in 21st century. The author doesn't live in medieval ages, he lives in modern era. Basically, the morality of ASOIAF characters mostly isn't the same with medieval ages. There are huge difference and arguing that we have to bring history in discussion is relatively a moot point. This story is universe for itself, again dragons and ice zombies, hello... And many of the ideas of Martin do not even originate from medieval ages. The feminist paroles in many female characters, the empowerment, deconstruction of "entitlement", awake of public consciousness etc... There is a line that must be drawn when we use history in discussing ASOIAF, for it simply differs in many way...

[LordStoneheart]

Who was serving the lannisters, had lannister blade, order lannister protection, and having a proud lannisterman squire. Oh and was moaning Jaime's name. Not seeing how SH was blind in this.

Exactly. I love the hell out of Brienne but I can't hate or dislike my Lady because of this. the cards were stacked against Brienne and she damned herself with her own words about Jaime. I'll be sad to see her go if she does but I'll fill with joy when Jaime's feet leave the ground after being found guilty of pushing Bran and 'organizing the RW' (hehehe... the sweet irony of Jaime sending his regards.)

[Boarsbane]

Exactly. I love the hell out of Brienne but I can't hate or dislike my Lady because of this. the cards were stacked against Brienne and she damned herself with her own words about Jaime. I'll be sad to see her go if she does but I'll fill with joy when Jaime's feet leave the ground after being found guilty of pushing Bran and 'organizing the RW' (hehehe... the sweet irony of Jaime sending his regards.)

Association with Lannisters isn't a crime, nor is being a Lannister. Her anger is understandable given the way thinks look but don't act like killing every one associated with the Lannisters is justice.

[7th-key]

Who was serving the lannisters, had lannister blade, order lannister protection, and having a proud lannisterman squire. Oh and was moaning Jaime's name. Not seeing how SH was blind in this.

She delivered Jaime to KL, but the girls were already gone. Her part of the deal was thusly ended.

Even if, after that, she had pledged for the Lannisters, should all people in the Lannister ranks be sentenced to death?

[LordStoneheart]

Association with Lannisters isn't a crime, nor is being a Lannister. Her anger is understandable given the way thinks look but don't act like killing every one associated with the Lannisters is justice.

to quote Karstark, "in war you kill your enemies, boy."

the former BWB killed anyone associated with the lions because of their destruction and atrocities in the Riverlands. My Lady is fighting a war, not playing at one.

She delivered Jaime to KL, but the girls were already gone. Her part of the deal was thusly ended.

Even if, after that, she had pledged for the Lannisters, should all people in the Lannister ranks be sentenced to death?

Jaime obviously disagrees with you considering why Brienne is there in the first place.

[7th-key]

Jaime obviously disagrees with you considering why Brienne is there in the first place.

So they go an extra mile to try fullfill the deal and hanging is that's what they get. :D

[LordStoneheart]

So they go an extra mile to try fullfill the deal and hanging is that's what they get. :D

well first off no less than he deserves. But after the betrayal of the Freys and Boltons she is right not to trust anyone's word. There was no good evidence that they were trying to rescue Sansa and keep her safe. Unless Jaime can talk his way out of it somehow, he's guilty. Justice and Vengeance.