True Revenge

[Boarsbane]

to quote Karstark, "in war you kill your enemies, boy."

the former BWB killed anyone associated with the lions because of their destruction and atrocities in the Riverlands. My Lady is fighting a war, not playing at one.

Jaime obviously disagrees with you considering why Brienne is there in the first place.

Karstark is child killing scum, what does he know about justice?

He is right about war, but if this is war then why bother with trials? You don't usually put people on trial during a war, you do after. I guess your lady disagrees with you.

I will remember you using that quote though next time you berate Lord Tywin for unleashing Gregor on the Riverlands.

[Wmarshal]

What is justice? Just another man's revenge.

[LordStoneheart]

Karstark is child killing scum, what does he know about justice?

He is right about war, but if this is war then why bother with trials? You don't usually put people on trial during a war, you do after. I guess your lady disagrees with you.

I will remember you using that quote though next time you berate Lord Tywin for unleashing Gregor on the Riverlands.

Quote me all you want. all it proves is that you have to really drag down everyone else to defend those two psychopaths. pretty much the case with defending Lannisters in general. the only way they look good is if everyone else is as bad. forgive me if I don't root for those cunts.

What is justice? Just another man's revenge.

Exactly.

[The Wolves]

There is no justice in Westeros, so people claiming justice instead of revenge is in for a world of disappointment.

I want revenge for Elia and her children, the RW, Jayne Poole, the smallfolk, etc.....

I want every last Lannister/Frey/Bolton dead.

And I don't care about Cersei's WOS I haven't forgotten how she humiliated Ned on the same steps she had to start her walk, nor have I forgotten how she had him locked up without word of his daughters while his cast was rotting away.

I don't care if the walk was cruel, Cersei is responsible for much death, destruction, rape, abuse, etc...... she got off really easy IMO

[Mladen]

Karstark is child killing scum, what does he know about justice?

He is right about war, but if this is war then why bother with trials? You don't usually put people on trial during a war, you do after. I guess your lady disagrees with you.

I will remember you using that quote though next time you berate Lord Tywin for unleashing Gregor on the Riverlands.

And I remember you justifying Tywin for being, how did you call Karstark, "child killing scum" Glad to know that you have changed your opinion about Tywin... Or that this is yet another double-standards opinion? So, is Tywin "child killing scum" or you apply your standards as pleased thus your arguments bearing no validity and credibility?

[LordStoneheart]

And I remember you justifying Tywin for being, how did you call Karstark, "child killing scum" Glad to know that you have changed your opinion about Tywin... Or that this is yet another double-standards opinion? So, is Tywin "child killing scum" or you apply your standards as pleased thus your arguments bearing no validity and credibility?

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[Arakan]

Actually, now you speak about setting... But the setting doesn't necessarily influence the moral of the story. This wasn't written for 15th century Englishmen, but readers in 21st century. The author doesn't live in medieval ages, he lives in modern era. Basically, the morality of ASOIAF characters mostly isn't the same with medieval ages. There are huge difference and arguing that we have to bring history in discussion is relatively a moot point. This story is universe for itself, again dragons and ice zombies, hello... And many of the ideas of Martin do not even originate from medieval ages. The feminist paroles in many female characters, the empowerment, deconstruction of "entitlement", awake of public consciousness etc... There is a line that must be drawn when we use history in discussing ASOIAF, for it simply differs in many way...

Ok you are saying that we should use modern values and ethic standards to judge all the things happening in Westeros and Essos?

Allright why not but please tell me

1) which modern value sets should be used as benchmark? After all the world is big and value systems differ quite a lot...(for all I know you can have different value sets than me, not to mention million of other fans)

2) should we really judge EVERYTHING happening in the series by these modern values (supposed we can solve no.1)?

If I would do 1+2 then all of the characters are despicable for me :). Heck I am an die hard republican and democrat who detests the whole parasitic aristocratic bunch :D

Conclusion: I agree with JohnHenryTudor

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What is justice? Just another man's revenge.

QFT

[Mladen]

Ok you are saying that we should use modern values and ethic standards to judge all the things happening in Westeros and Essos?

Allright why not but please tell me

1) which modern value sets should be used as benchmark? After all the world is big and value systems differ quite a lot...(for all I know you can have different value sets than me, not to mention million of other fans)

2) should we really judge EVERYTHING happening in the series by these modern values (supposed we can solve no.1)?

If I would do 1+2 then all of the characters are despicable for me :). Heck I am an die hard republican and democrat who detests the whole parasitic aristocratic bunch :D

Conclusion: I agree with JohnHenryTudor

If you actually think that two readers from the same religious, cultural, even genetic background would read in the same manner the same material, I then ask you to re-examine the purpose of this board. There is no universal "benchmark" for reading anything. Two readers read things in their own unique way, thinking about this or that character in different manners. Simply, if GRRM wanted his audience to be medieval, then he should have returned in time and gave them these books to read. However, these books are meant for contemporary audience and we read them and judge them not on our knowledge of medieval history, but on our lives, emotions, preferences, reading history... You generalized this as there is "one true way to read these books". There isn't.

Furthermore, if we would adapt medieval assessments of right and wrong, many things would be different. Arya would be a terrorist who attacked Crown Prince and we should all be hating her. Jon is a bastard thus he is not only irrelevant but evil by nature. Basically, the way we read these books would be drastically changed if we apply solely medieval standards for right and good. And in a series with such modern themes like feminism, human rights etc it is kinda impossible to close the minds to fit several centuries ago perspective.

[Arakan]

What is justice? Just another man's revenge.

Not sure if serious...

[7th-key]

If you want to be rid of Jaime, it's your prerogative, it's a fictional word after all :D

But as long as Brienne doesn't turn him over she'll get hanged, too.

And what about pod?

There's a difference between a trial and a fair trial. Haven't seen such thing a s a fair trial in Westeros yet. If one day Sansa will face one for the killing of Joffrey, all evidence will point to her, she'll also be given the possibility to defend herself, and she'll lose. Is that justice?

[Wmarshal]

How wasn't SH unfair? Beric hanged for less.

[7th-key]

I find Karstark pretty lame.

Jaime killed his sons in battle. Apparently they were even two against one.

Karstark retributed by killing two hostage kids...

[Wmarshal]

Not sure if serious...

I believe in courts and law, but in the end verdicts are meant to be society's vengeance against offenders.

[Wmarshal]

I find Karstark pretty lame.

Jaime killed his sons in battle. Apparently they were even two against one.

Karstark retributed by killing two hostage kids...

Which was monstrous, Jaime was the one that should have payed.

[Boarsbane]

And I remember you justifying Tywin for being, how did you call Karstark, "child killing scum" Glad to know that you have changed your opinion about Tywin... Or that this is yet another double-standards opinion? So, is Tywin "child killing scum" or you apply your standards as pleased thus your arguments bearing no validity and credibility?

Tywin is a child killer, and I wouldn't use anything he says or does as a basis for what justice is like someone did with Rickard Karstark. And anyways Tywin had those children killed because it needed to be done in that kind of world, Rickard Karstark did it for petty revenge.

[The Wolves]

Honestly someone remind me when there was ever justice done in Martin's world?

Where was the justice for Elia and her babies even almost 2 decades later and they never got any.

Where was the justice for the sack of KL?

Where was the justice for the Starks when Aerys had Rickard burned? And Brandon also killed?

There is no such thing as justice in a world such as ASOIAF

[Wmarshal]

Boarsbane, not really, Tywin himself used holy orders to remove claimants.

[Arakan]

If you actually think that two readers from the same religious, cultural, even genetic background would read in the same manner the same material, I then ask you to re-examine the purpose of this board. There is no universal "benchmark" for reading anything. Two readers read things in their own unique way, thinking about this or that character in different manners. Simply, if GRRM wanted his audience to be medieval, then he should have returned in time and gave them these books to read. However, these books are meant for contemporary audience and we read them and judge them not on our knowledge of medieval history, but on our lives, emotions, preferences, reading history... You generalized this as there is "one true way to read these books". There isn't.

Furthermore, if we would adapt medieval assessments of right and wrong, many things would be different. Arya would be a terrorist who attacked Crown Prince and we should all be hating her. Jon is a bastard thus he is not only irrelevant but evil by nature. Basically, the way we read these books would be drastically changed if we apply solely medieval standards for right and good. And in a series with such modern themes like feminism, human rights etc it is kinda impossible to close the minds to fit several centuries ago perspective.

Dont get me wrong Mladen, I dont necessarily disagree with you but - please see my 2nd point - if we do judge in-world actions with our current value sets then we must do it all-encompassing and not selective because selective judgement consequently leads to hypocrisy. Respect to those who can do this, I certainly cannot.

Thus my comment about my sentiment towards nobility ;). The very concept of "blood right", nobility, feudalism etc is COMPLETELY despicable to me...but this is how Westeros works and I have to suspend my disbelief and tell myself "under current circumstances there must always be a Stark in Winterfell aka they are the rightful everlasting rulers of the North".

Though I agree with you. One must ask questions and reflect about what happens in the books. But I try to do it more with a "historic" way of reading those things

[Boarsbane]

Boarsbane, not really, Tywin himself used holy orders to remove claimants.

If Robert is going to be king it needs to be, and that was inevitable after the Trident. They let Viserys and Dany live and now it is about to bring even more war and destruction to Westeros.