DamoDega Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Honorable mention "for the watch" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 1. His mother didn't betray him. 2. Theon isn't his brother, which he was being repeatedly reminded. 3. Edmure's actions can't be judged. He should have told him. We can say easily that marrying Jeyne was a mistake, but promise to Freys weren't bad idea. Simply, he needed them at that moment... Robb can't blame his family for his failure. He can blame traitors, but his bannermen are showing exceptional respect and loyalty towards him and his cause. Even now when he is dead and his House destroyed... This, with the add that to the question, IMO, Cat got a much worse hand. And Elia. And, actually, several other characters. Rhaenys, Aegon, Rhaella, Lyanna (Depending on what might have happened), Ashara, Pia, Jeyne Poole, Theon (Post-Reek), everyone that has ever met Ramsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 This, with the add that to the question, IMO, Cat got a much worse hand. And Elia. And, actually, several other characters.... Rhaella,.... One of the characters in the series we hear very little about but was dealt a hell of a bad hand. I can't help but feel sorry for her, and hope we learn more about her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 One of the characters in the series we hear very little about but was dealt a hell of a bad hand. I can't help but feel sorry for her, and hope we learn more about her. Honestly, I wish George could release an series akin to Dunk and Egg about Rhaella, Elia, Ashara, Arthur... I've usually felt so bad for Rhaella, and I feel like she's been given such a bad hand, I wish George explores these characters from Robert's Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 One of the characters in the series we hear very little about but was dealt a hell of a bad hand. I can't help but feel sorry for her, and hope we learn more about her. Honestly, I wish George could release an series akin to Dunk and Egg about Rhaella, Elia, Ashara, Arthur... I've usually felt so bad for Rhaella, and I feel like she's been given such a bad hand, I wish George explores these characters from Robert's Rebellion. I know I have no proof, but I have a nagging feeling that Rhaella (and Elia) were much more capable and smarter than we give them credit... I think we might find out that the both of them played Game very well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 1. His mother didn't betray him.2. Theon isn't his brother, which he was being repeatedly reminded.3. Edmure's actions can't be judged. He should have told him. We can say easily that marrying Jeyne was a mistake, but promise to Freys weren't bad idea. Simply, he needed them at that moment... Robb can't blame his family for his failure. He can blame traitors, but his bannermen are showing exceptional respect and loyalty towards him and his cause. Even now when he is dead and his House destroyed...1. His mother did betray him by letting Jaime go. As much as we may sympathize with her as mothers to say this was not a betrayal to Robb is silly.2. I wouldn't go so far as to say Theon is his brother. I would have worded it: His friend he grew up with betrayed him.3. Edmure should have followed the orders he was given. Robb shouldn't have to say hey do this & while you are doing it or afterwards don't do this, this, or this because this is my battle plan. He should've said hey do this & be able to trust it would be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Tywin never would have orchestrated the red wedding with Jaime in the hands of Robb. I can't believe you truly feel that giving up Jaime was no big loss for Robb and the Stark forces. I'll be sure to ignore your uneducated posts from now on:agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 3. Edmure should have followed the orders he was given. Robb shouldn't have to say hey do this & while you are doing it or afterwards don't do this, this, or this because this is my battle plan. He should've said hey do this & be able to trust it would be done. So you think that Edmure should watch Tywin marching past Riverrun, very close to Riverrun, and just sit twiddling his thumbs, hoping Tywin doesn't turn and attack the castle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jake Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Viserys. All he wanted was his throne! I can't help but feel sorry for Viserys myself. He definitely got fucked over by Khal Drogo, the poor guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hand to King Davos Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Robb cannot dictate his battle plans. Tywin didn't dictate to Jaime, Stannis didn't dictate everything to the idiot who lost his entire fleet, Robb didn't dictate to Edmure. You need intelligent subordinates. Tywin had Tyrion, Stannis might have had Davos, Bobby B had Ned, Mormont had the Hlafhand, etc. All generals need capable subordinates. Robb's most capable turned out to be a traitor (Roose) So yes, Edmure can be blamed for not looking at the strategic situation and not grasping that Tywin would be trapped.ETA: And this is also the biggest way Robb got screwed over. Most other generals have competent underlings. Robb had a traitor and Edmure, who was an average military mind at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Jeyne Poole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Robb cannot dictate his battle plans. Tywin didn't dictate to Jaime, Stannis didn't dictate everything to the idiot who lost his entire fleet, Robb didn't dictate to Edmure. You need intelligent subordinates. Tywin had Tyrion, Stannis might have had Davos, Bobby B had Ned, Mormont had the Hlafhand, etc. All generals need capable subordinates. Robb's most capable turned out to be a traitor (Roose) So yes, Edmure can be blamed for not looking at the strategic situation and not grasping that Tywin would be trapped.ETA: And this is also the biggest way Robb got screwed over. Most other generals have competent underlings. Robb had a traitor and Edmure, who was an average military mind at best.Or maybe he sees a 20,000 man strong army heading West towards his severely outnumbered king and thinks shit, I'd better stop him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 1. His mother did betray him by letting Jaime go. As much as we may sympathize with her as mothers to say this was not a betrayal to Robb is silly.2. I wouldn't go so far as to say Theon is his brother. I would have worded it: His friend he grew up with betrayed him.3. Edmure should have followed the orders he was given. Robb shouldn't have to say hey do this & while you are doing it or afterwards don't do this, this, or this because this is my battle plan. He should've said hey do this & be able to trust it would be done. 1. OK, we can technically called that a treason, but what is silly to argue that it caused RW... Answer me that logic. Answer me how is my post "uneducated". Provide me some text proofs that point that Jaime's release directly caused RW. 3. Edmure is the Overlord of his half an army, thus he should have been informed about the plans. That is why Kings have war councils... Jeyne Poole. I would agree on this... Actually there is entire line of characters who got worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I know I have no proof, but I have a nagging feeling that Rhaella (and Elia) were much more capable and smarter than we give them credit... I think we might find out that the both of them played Game very well...I dont even care if she was a mastwr player or not, my respect for her is because she seems a very admirable person (setting aside her love, trying to shield Viserys, surviving Aerys, crowning Viserys [this one I havent got a source for. It might be from.the app, or it may not.be canon, not sure].) It just makes me wonder how she struggled through it all :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In A Coat of Gold Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 How about him screwing over Walder Frey and putting his own loyal bannerman to the sword? Look at it from Frey's perspective, His eldest son and heir and many of his own men fought bravely and died for him on the promise that he would marry their sister...and he marries a woman from a far lesser house. That's beyond disrespectful. That sounds treacherous from their perspective. Look at it from Karstark's perspective. Two of his sons die fighting Robb's war, and you kill him over killing an enemy? If that's not getting screwed over, I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 People often complain that other characters get lucky breaks or have Valyrian steel plot armor but it's not often mentioned how often GRRM loves to kick the Starks right in the balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I know I have no proof, but I have a nagging feeling that Rhaella (and Elia) were much more capable and smarter than we give them credit... I think we might find out that the both of them played Game very well... I dont even care if she was a mastwr player or not, my respect for her is because she seems a very admirable person (setting aside her love, trying to shield Viserys, surviving Aerys, crowning Viserys [this one I havent got a source for. It might be from.the app, or it may not.be canon, not sure].) It just makes me wonder how she struggled through it all :dunno: I think Rhaella was a strong woman considering her condition. I have this theory that she subtly conspired to eventually depose Aerys, as well. And not only that, but everything she had to pass... She was certainly the right Queen. What lacked was a decent King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 So you think that Edmure should watch Tywin marching past Riverrun, very close to Riverrun, and just sit twiddling his thumbs, hoping Tywin doesn't turn and attack the castle? I would ask myself this: "Would I rather defend against a larger army from flat ground or behind an extremely fortified position?" My answer would be the fortified position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In A Coat of Gold Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 People often complain that other characters get lucky breaks or have Valyrian steel plot armor but it's not often mentioned how often GRRM loves to kick the Starks right in the balls. How about all the ridiculous plot armor the Stark kids outside of Robb have? -How the hell does Arya escape from Trant and the Lannister guards with only Syrio defending her? -How about Bran surviving an incredibly large fall AND escaping Winterfell when Theon takes it -Ditto on escaping with Rickon -Sansa gets out of King's Landing with only the help of Drunkard Dontos while she's being actively hunted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I would ask myself this: "Would I rather defend against a larger army from flat ground or behind an extremely fortified position?" My answer would be the fortified position.It wasn't flat lands though, he fought them at the much more strategic fords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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