Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 No, actually. Not only that Tywin gave up on Jaime, but we have situation from Rebellion when Tywin simply wasn't afraid of Jaime being hostage. The RW preparations started BEFORE Cat released Jaime.Well I stand corrected on that point then. I didn't remember things quite that way. It doesn't change the fact that Cat betrayed Robb & that losing Jaime was a big loss for the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I'm not sure what you are arguing here. Tywin planned to trade Jaime for Cat & Edmure post RW?Tywin did not hold Cat post RW, Cat was dead or well. .. Undead.At any rate I'm not saying the RW wouldn't have happened had Cat not released him. What I said was that Cat betrayed Robb by releasing Jaime. Then I agreed with another poster that Tywin would not have orchestrated the RW while Jaime was being held & that losing Jaime was a big loss for the Starks... Tywin was under the assumption that Catelyn would be taken alive. Here is the relevant passage: Slain as well, I'd say. A pair of wolfskins. Frey had intended to take her alive but perhaps something went awry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Well I stand corrected on that point then. I didn't remember things quite that way.It doesn't change the fact that Cat betrayed Robb & that losing Jaime was a big loss for the Starks. Well, I guess that my "uneducated" post was actually corroborated with some text proofs... Second,yeah, I don't see it as treason, but I understand where it comes from. As for losing Jaime being huge lost, as we have just concluded, Jaime's release didn't actually harm Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonJD Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Sorry for another thread on Robb. Seems like everyday there is a new thread pondering what the Young Wolf should had done differently. It's all the threads about him that has got me thinking; out of all the characters in this series, was anyone more screwed over than him? His mom betrays him, his brother (Theon) betrays him, his family (Uncle Edmure for example) lets him down, his bannermen didn't show enough respect for his judgment (Lord Karstark), and he had a complete Judas Iscariot in his midst (Roose) I often see this belief that Robb was an idiot and had his death coming to him for making awful choices. Compared to any leader in this series though, were his poor decisions blatantly worse than any other poor choices made by other leaders in this story? I will give you marrying Jeyne and breaking his promise to the Frey's (a promise his mother made for him that he did not give approval to or know about at the time) as arguably the worst decision anyone has made in this series. Besides that though, I think this notion that he made awful choices is overblown and fueled by the fact that he is dead. So getting back to the original question of this thread, is there any other character in the series surrounded by such unloyal, inept, and opportunistic bannermen and family/friends as what Robb had to deal with during the WoT5K? Robb's fate is unfortunate, but he sets himself up for failure with his lack of political skill, just like Ned. His fate isn't all that bad though. I'd rather die like Robb than live like Theon for example. Even Sansa. Elia Martell. Robb had at least some hand in his destiny. Elia did not. I can't see her name without hearing ShowOberyn "You kill her, you rape her, you kill her children, say hello to my little friend" I'm not sure what you are arguing here. Tywin planned to trade Jaime for Cat & Edmure post RW?Tywin did not hold Cat post RW, Cat was dead or well. .. Undead.At any rate I'm not saying the RW wouldn't have happened had Cat not released him. What I said was that Cat betrayed Robb by releasing Jaime. Then I agreed with another poster that Tywin would not have orchestrated the RW while Jaime was being held & that losing Jaime was a big loss for the Starks... Tywin was under the assumption that Catelyn would be taken alive. Here is the relevant passage: I imagine they didn't plan on her taking a hostage during the RW. Hence they thought she'd be taken alive originally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I imagine they didn't plan on her taking a hostage during the RW. Hence they thought she'd be taken alive originally. Exactly. The assumption was underestimating just how badass Catelyn is. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I can't see her name without hearing ShowOberyn "You kill her, you rape her, you kill her children, say hello to my little friend" Hello, my name is Oberyn Martell. You killed my sister. Prepare to die! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Well, I guess that my "uneducated" post was actually corroborated with some text proofs... Second,yeah, I don't see it as treason, but I understand where it comes from. As for losing Jaime being huge lost, as we have just concluded, Jaime's release didn't actually harm Starks.But it was a big deal. The Starks lost their biggest bargaining chip... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 But it was a big deal. The Starks lost their biggest bargaining chip... OK, in hypothetical scenario, without RW, I would agree. But, given what has happened, what harm has actually Jaime's release brought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 If we assume that Robb was "screwed over" it means that he did right but other people actually messed up his plans, which isn't completely accurate. His big big big biggest mistake he did it himself, marrying Jeyne. Adorable as she is, he's not the first Lord who has to put his real wishes aside in order to do the right thing. Either way, any mistakes he could have done, and any consequences of his actions can't match the hell that Theon and Jeyne Poole have been through. Theon's crimes were obviously worthy of execution, which I'm sure Robb would have done. Instead, he was not only castrated and flayed but also broken until the point he now is barely above an obedient pet. And Jeyne, an innocent girl whose only "crime" was being Sansa's friend, was probably repeatedly raped and beaten and sold to the same sadistic who broke Theon. And because misery loves company, they had to meet each other. Robb fought a war and lost for taking bad decisions and insulting his allies with those bad decisions. Theon wished he could have died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I'm not sure what you are arguing here. Tywin planned to trade Jaime for Cat & Edmure post RW?Tywin did not hold Cat post RW, Cat was dead or well. .. Undead.At any rate I'm not saying the RW wouldn't have happened had Cat not released him. What I said was that Cat betrayed Robb by releasing Jaime. Then I agreed with another poster that Tywin would not have orchestrated the RW while Jaime was being held & that losing Jaime was a big loss for the Starks...Cat wasn't supposed to die at the RW, actually. Not originally. But the RW in itself was already on the plans, before the release, therefore, Cat releasing or not Jaime had no effect in the RW plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 The problem with the betrayal imo is that Robb lost authority with his men. It's why Karstark felt he could ignore Robb and kill the new Lannister hostages. If his own mother did as she pleased behind his back, then why should any of his bannermen listen to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHouseHB Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Rhaenys Targaryen, Small Folk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 But it was a big deal. The Starks lost their biggest bargaining chip... Tywin had given up on Jaime, Tyrion pretty much thinks so at the end of AGOT. If Robb is not prepared to bargain Jaime for his sisters and Tywin is unwilling to give into Robbs demands then Jaime is no longer of that much importance as a bargaining chip. Who or what was Robb hoping to trade Jaime for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 The problem with the betrayal imo is that Robb lost authority with his men. It's why Karstark felt he could ignore Robb and kill the new Lannister hostages. If his own mother did as she pleased behind his back, then why should any of his bannermen listen to him? But the fact is that Karstark was borderline disobedient even with Jaime in dungeons. He wanted something Robb had no intention of giving him, and he was too stubborn to stop pursuing it. He was basically ticking bomb. Also, has any other Lord abandoned Robb because of that? Glovers, Manderlys, Mormonts, Umbers, Riverlords? No... Everybody understood and moved on... Karstark couldn't have because he wanted vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Karstark was an issue and I do not even dare to say that he never would have done anything stupid, without Cat's betrayal. Perhaps it could never have been avoided. But if you have one bannerman already thinking of doing as he wishes (but not having done it yet), then Robb's own family, his own mother going behind his back will just motivate that bannerman all the more to do what he wants, rather than what he should do. And Robb wouldn't come across as hypocritical afterwards: his mother gets to do as she pleases, except being kept in a fancy "prison", but Karstark get his head chopped off. Cat undermined his position with those he needed to convince and motivate to stay in line. Cat's actions may have just tipped the balance in Karstark's mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Robbs father is executed for treason and Robb wants to kill all the Lannisters to get revenge while Kastarks two sons are killed by Jaime and he wants to kill all the Lannisters. Robb should compromised his honor for one of his most loyal bannermen.Robb may have wanted to kill all the Lannisters, but even he had enough common sense not to go around mindlessly murdering valuable hostages while his sisters were captives of the enemy.Karstark murdering the Lannister boys was idiotic: what exactly did he think would have happened with his last son and heir apparent sitting in a Lannister dungeon? He should be thanking Robb in the afterlife that his own death was enough to pacify Kevan.Perhaps the situation with Karstark could have been salvageable if he had killed only the Lannister boys. But he killed Tully soldiers as well in his mad rampage. Not executing Karstark after that would be ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuem Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Tyrion/Tysha thats pretty rough and then the whole shae thing lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Other characters have and had it definitely (a lot) worse. He got screwed over more than his enemies, though, and that's why he died while they lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Robb may have wanted to kill all the Lannisters, but even he had enough common sense not to go around mindlessly murdering valuable hostages while his sisters were captives of the enemy.Karstark murdering the Lannister boys was idiotic: what exactly did he think would have happened with his last son and heir apparent sitting in a Lannister dungeon? He should be thanking Robb in the afterlife that his own death was enough to pacify Kevan.Perhaps the situation with Karstark could have been salvageable if he had killed only the Lannister boys. But he killed Tully soldiers as well in his mad rampage. Not executing Karstark after that would be ridiculous. Edmure was the one suggesting leniency to Robb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Edmure was the one suggesting leniency to RobbEdmure has always had a soft streak. Him being merciful is not surprising.But sparing Karstark in that situation would be unwise as well. It sends out a loud and clear message that one is allowed to act with impunity. and as long as Robb is desperate enough, he'll let you walk all over him.There's little point in sparing him either. He had already ordered his men to desert.It's pretty much a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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