Did anyone in the series get screwed over more than Robb Stark?

[Wavey Sauce]

Cat wasn't supposed to die at the RW, actually. Not originally. But the RW in itself was already on the plans, before the release, therefore, Cat releasing or not Jaime had no effect in the RW plans.

If Robb gets killed war against north is over, so he was for sure going. Why would Cat live? Who would Tywin contact to ransom her for? Track down black fish, Lysa? There isnt any benefit the Lannisters would have by letting any Starks staying around (other then Sansa)

[Wavey Sauce]

Edmure has always had a soft streak. Him being merciful is not surprising.

But sparing Karstark in that situation would be unwise as well. It sends out a loud and clear message that one is allowed to act with impunity. and as long as Robb is desperate enough, he'll let you walk all over him.

There's little point in sparing him either. He had already ordered his men to desert.

It's pretty much a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation.

Edmure has always had a soft streak. Him being merciful is not surprising.

But sparing Karstark in that situation would be unwise as well. It sends out a loud and clear message that one is allowed to act with impunity. and as long as Robb is desperate enough, he'll let you walk all over him.

There's little point in sparing him either. He had already ordered his men to desert.

It's pretty much a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation.

Dont think it was Edmure being "merciful" but more so knowing if they lost their huge portion of Karstalk warriors they would be fucked come to the war, because of that they had to trust the Freys and take the gamble because they needed the men

[Boarsbane]

Dont think it was Edmure being "merciful" but more so knowing if they lost their huge portion of Karstalk warriors they would be fucked come to the war, because of that they had to trust the Freys and take the gamble because they needed the men

Karstark ordered his men to desert before he killed the Lannister boys

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Edmure has always had a soft streak. Him being merciful is not surprising.

But sparing Karstark in that situation would be unwise as well. It sends out a loud and clear message that one is allowed to act with impunity. and as long as Robb is desperate enough, he'll let you walk all over him.

There's little point in sparing him either. He had already ordered his men to desert.

It's pretty much a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation.

There was reason to spare him, even if it was to send him to the Wall as executing him has made the Karstarks his enemy and with the Ironborn in the North he needs all the support he can get.

Gods know what the Karstark foot with Roose Bolton will do when they hear I've executed their liege for a traitor. Bolton must be warned."

"Lord Karstark's heir was at Harrenhal as well," Ser Brynden reminded him. "The eldest son, the one the Lannisters took captive on the Green Fork."

"Harrion. His name is Harrion." Robb laughed bitterly. "A king had best know the names of his enemies, don't you think?"

The Blackfish looked at him shrewdly. "You know that for a certainty? That this will make young Karstark your enemy?"

"What else would he be? I am about to kill his father, he's not like to thank me."

"He might. There are sons who hate their fathers, and in a stroke you will make him Lord of Karhold."

Robb shook his head. "Even if Harrion were that sort, he could never openly forgive his father's killer. His own men would turn on him. These are northmen, Uncle. The north remembers."

"Pardon him, then," urged Edmure Tully.

Robb stared at him in frank disbelief.

Under that gaze, Edmure's face reddened. "Spare his life, I mean. I don't like the taste of it any more than you, sire. He slew my men as well. Poor Delp had only just recovered from the wound Ser Jaime gave him. Karstark must be punished, certainly. Keep him in chains, say."

"A hostage?" said Catelyn. It might be best . . .

"Yes, a hostage!" Her brother seized on her musing as agreement. "Tell the son that so long as he remains loyal, his father will not be harmed.

Robb seems to understand that sparing Karstark will be good for him, and the relationship between him and the Karstarks can still be salvaged even if he punishes him another way. Instead, he chooses the one way which would anger them the most.

There are Karstark men with Roose at the Red Wedding, would they have gone along with him had Robb not chopped their Lords head off?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Karstark ordered his men to desert before he killed the Lannister boys

That was the horse, the surviving foot was still with Roose.

[Courtny baratheon]

Dany,tyrion,theon.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I chalk up so many of the deaths to war casualties. In my opinion, the biggest injustices were done to Micah and Lady. They were true "innocents".

[Erkan12]

If we assume that Robb was "screwed over" it means that he did right but other people actually messed up his plans, which isn't completely accurate. His big big big biggest mistake he did it himself, marrying Jeyne. Adorable as she is, he's not the first Lord who has to put his real wishes aside in order to do the right thing.

Either way, any mistakes he could have done, and any consequences of his actions can't match the hell that Theon and Jeyne Poole have been through. Theon's crimes were obviously worthy of execution, which I'm sure Robb would have done. Instead, he was not only castrated and flayed but also broken until the point he now is barely above an obedient pet. And Jeyne, an innocent girl whose only "crime" was being Sansa's friend, was probably repeatedly raped and beaten and sold to the same sadistic who broke Theon. And because misery loves company, they had to meet each other. Robb fought a war and lost for taking bad decisions and insulting his allies with those bad decisions. Theon wished he could have died.

I am sure that GRRM has explained the situation of Freys before, Walder Frey was still going to betray Robb. So after the battle of Blackwater, the treachery was already decided.

Cat (his own mother)

Rodrik Cassel

Edmure the fool

Theon the reek

These guys destroyed Robb.

[Lord Damian]

It is hard to blame Robb for the Jeyne Westerling fiasco as I think GRRM was in a corner where something had to stop Robb and slip him up because it sure was not going to be Tywin. However, GRRM writes all his characters stories so lets just say he lost honor when he broke his wedding pledge which was to secure an ally that sacraficed lives for him and paid for it 100 fold.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I am sure that GRRM has explained the situation of Freys before, Walder Frey was still going to betray Robb. So after the battle of Blackwater, the treachery was already decided.

Not in the same manor.

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

It is likely that the Freys would have done what the Brackens and other Riverlord Houses did once it was apparent that the Lannister-Tyrell alliance had won.

There would have been no Red Wedding but they probably would have began distancing themselves from his cause in an effort to retain their lands and powers.

Cat (his own mother)

They betrayed each other. His refusal to exchange Jaime for his sisters was a slap in the face. She was desperate, she still screwed up but her son simply giving up on freeing his sisters played its part.

Rodrik Cassel

This is debatable. Robb didn't leave the North with enough men or leadership to defend itself. Cassel simply didnt have the men or the support from the other Houses to deal with the multiple threats of the Hornwood debacle, Ironborn invasion and the trouble at the Wall.

This is on Robb.

Edmure the fool

Edmure may be a fool, but Robb didn't exactly leave him with clear instructions. Robb told him nothing of the plan, how long he would be gone for or what he was allowed to react to.

Edmurre saw Tywin marching West with an army 4 times the size of Robbs, he reacted knowing he, Edmure, had more men than Robb and was in a better position to attack Tywin than Robb in the West.

Theon the reek

Yup. Theon screwed his friend over.

Robb was warned by his mother not to trust him though, so he kind of screwed his mom, his brothers and the people of Winterfell by not listening to Cat.

These guys destroyed Robb.

Robb was unfortunate, but Robb played the biggest part in his own downfall. Theon, Walder and Karstark were all problems he created when there were easier solutions.

[Erkan12]

Edmure may be a fool, but Robb didn't exactly leave him with clear instructions. Robb told him nothing of the plan, how long he would be gone for or what he was allowed to react to.

Edmurre saw Tywin marching West with an army 4 times the size of Robbs, he reacted knowing he, Edmure, had more men than Robb and was in a better position to attack Tywin than Robb in the West.

Are you sure about this ? Edmure had no men when Robb leave the Riverrun. Edmure has called his river lords after the news of Tywin marching, and the same Edmure told to Robb that they have to send the river lords to their home for protecting the farms etc. (Another terrible idea from Edmure)

Then the same Edmure called his river lords without sending any words to Robb or BF, just for winning battles and glory because he was jealous Robb.

As for Rodrik, he shouldn't have to leave WF defenseless, the loss of WF also has caused RW because with an single stroke House Stark could be heirless (death of Robb), and thats why Boltons & Freys agreed with Tywin's wedding plan.

For Cat, No. Because Robb was the King, and Cat has no right to do that. That was treason.

[Mladen]

For Cat, No. Because Robb was the King, and Cat has no right to do that. That was treason.

But explain us how she has destroyed him? For it is more than clear that her release of Jaime didn't cause or influenced RW.

[Erkan12]

But explain us how she has destroyed him? For it is more than clear that her release of Jaime didn't cause or influenced RW.

Loss of Karstarks. And agreement of Roose & Tywin.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Are you sure about this ? Edmure had no men when Robb leave the Riverrun. Edmure called his river lords after the news of Tywin marching, and the same Edmure told to Robb that they have to send the river lords to their home for protecting the farms etc. (Another terrible idea from Edmure)

Battle of the Fords involved 8,000 foot and 3,000 horse for the Tullys against the 20k Lannisters. Robb had 6k in the West, 1k of which was the Freys.

Then the same Edmure called his river lords without sending any words to Robb or BF, just for winning battles and glory because he was jealous Robb.

He's the Lords of the Riverlands and Robb has given him no timetable on when he will return. Is he supposed to lock himself in his castle forever?

Edmure was left in the dark, this is a communication problem.

As for Rodrik, he shouldn't have to leave WF defenseless, the loss of WF also has caused RW because with an single stroke House Stark could be heirless (death of Robb), and thats why Boltons & Freys agreed with Tywin's wedding plan.

What is Cassel meant to do? Watch as the Manderlys and Boltons fight over the Hornwood lands and do nothing? Watch as the Ironborn take Deepwood Motte, Torrhens Square and Moat Cailin and do nothing? While he stays safely inside.

Bran was right, the Starks should be defending their Vassals not abandoning them

[Mladen]

Loss of Karstarks. And agreement of Roose & Tywin.

Roose has already lost when Ramsay burned down WF, and when Tywin won the Blackwater. He was lost long before Jaime.

As for Karstark, the man was a ticking bomb. He was displeased with Jaime being alive even before he was released. Plus, the loss of Karstarks didn't influence Robb's faith.

All and all, we can argue that what Cat did was wrong, but we can't argue that she "ruined" Robb. Jaime's release had no impact on RW, and as such, on Robb's fate.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Loss of Karstarks. And agreement of Roose & Tywin.

The Karstarks could have been salvaged. Robb puts his honor infront of the safety of Roose by chopping his Karstarks head off, Robbs call despite being counseled against it.

Robb was put in a bad situation, but he chooses to deal with it in a way that would cost him the most.

[Erkan12]

Battle of the Fords involved 8,000 foot and 3,000 horse for the Tullys against the 20k Lannisters. Robb had 6k in the West, 1k of which was the Freys.

I said Edmure has called the river men after the news of Tywin. You said Edmure had more men, and thats why he has had to fight against Tywin which is wrong. The reason Robb did another plan for Tywin because the lack of river men, and Edmure used these men without giving any info to his king and his uncle.

Edmure just tricked Robb for battle glory and destroyed everything.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I said Edmure has called the river men after the news of Tywin. You said Edmure had more men, and thats why he has had to fight against Tywin which is wrong. The reason Robb did another plan for Tywin because the lack of river men, and Edmure used these men without giving any info to his king and his uncle.

Edmure just tricked Robb for battle glory and destroyed everything.

I said he had more men than Robb had in the West. Tywin was returning home with 4 times as many soldiers as Robb had with him. What is Edmure meant to do, sit back and watch his king be outnumbered?

[Starkfaithful85]

Tywin never would have orchestrated the red wedding with Jaime in the hands of Robb. I can't believe you truly feel that giving up Jaime was no big loss for Robb and the Stark forces. I'll be sure to ignore your uneducated posts from now on

couldnt agree more...karstarks would likely still be on robbs side...roose would have rethought his position, it has been argued that roose intended betrayal the whole time, but i have always viewed his actions as opportunistic because of robbs weak position. if the karstarks would not have left robb, robb might have been able to avoid begging the freys for help

[Mladen]

couldnt agree more...karstarks would likely still be on robbs side...roose would have rethought his position, it has been argued that roose intended betrayal the whole time, but i have always viewed his actions as opportunistic because of robbs weak position. if the karstarks would not have left robb, robb might have been able to avoid begging the freys for help

Then explain us why Ramsay, son of Roose, sacked WF long before Jaime's release, why basically Bolton and Frey organized entire thing at the wedding Roose/Fat Walda which happened before Jaime's release. Why was the original plan to keep Cat alive to swap her for Jaime? Basically, explain us how all these things happened BEFORE Jaime's release and how you can say that RW was a direct consequence of Jaime's release when all plans were made BEFORE it actually happened?