Did you really have to sleep with my cousin?

[Ser Eric]

it is not hypocrisy because as stated by at least one other, her objection wasn't about marriage, it was about promiscuity, something that applies to neither her or Rhaegar.

She didn't think Roert would keep to her bed after marriage. So, she went out and had sex with Rhaegar.

Lyanna logic.

[JamesOfHouseMurphy]

ARRRGGHH!!! GETS ME MA HAMMER!!!!!

[Talking Hodor]

How do you imagine Robert's reaction to hearing Lyanna bedded Rhaegar?

He, uh, rebelled against the Iron Throne. That was pretty much his reaction.

[jeyneofthed'Ubervilles]

We get to know Robert better than Rhaegar. Robert was a dim buffoon and he surely would have been as horrible to Lyanna as he was to Cercei.

Rhaegar was said to be handsome and smart. Maybe left alone they could have found some kind of happiness. But my reservation about Rhaegar is that he was very much a part of an arrogant dynasty that thought they could do whatever they wanted.

The Targaryens never took proper stock of the fact that the houses who felt close to The King were completely outgunned by those who felt alienated from him. And of course, they no longer had dragons. And that's why Robert's rebellion was always going to happen.

[Kyoshi]

Then it's all of your fault. U_U [...]

I though it was a real-life situation: tips on how to deal with a partner that slept with your cousin.

Anyway, Robert probably found the nearest brothel to deal with his loss. During the Rebellion, when he was riding to reclaim his "lost love", he was hiding in a brothel. He was so distraught by Lyanna's "kidnapping" that he conceived that girl who almost slept with Gendry.

I don't think Robert ever loved Lyanna. She was just a fantasy to him. The magic of her mystery would have evaporated within a week of them being married. With regard to Rhaegar+Lyanna, I think it was pre-marital sex. If there was marriage it probably happened after J was conceived, assuming R+L=J.

I also think that had their situation been “normal”, they might not have fallen in love. They were both escaping something: Rhaegar was running from a woman he was quoted as being fond of, Lyanna was running from a man who simply “loved” too many women. In their heads, they were probably perfect for one another. Or maybe Lyanna was as romantic as Rhaegar and didn’t even have to be convinced of TPTWP prophecy, she simply understood the need to save the world.

The only truth I know is this: We have too little information. The only overwhelming kind of information is that of Robert’s promiscuity. On that much we can agree. Lyanna isn’t a hypocrite, not as far as the definition of the word goes.

[Kyoshi]

I think in the end Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other by the way.

[BastardlyRock]

By just looking at this title I guessed it was going to be about Jaime/Cersei/Lancel.... but of course then it would have read our cousin :dunno: I find I'm not as interested in discussing this anymore. :cool4:

[Julia Martell]

Given the way this board argues and hurls objects around about relationship that we were there for the entirety of, (Shae and Tyrion anyone) it's just akin for pain to argue about who was in the right about a relationship we know almost nothing about.

Really, we have no idea why those two crazy kids did any of this. We have some ideas, like Rhaegar's obsession with the prophecy and Lyanna's un-satisfaction with her betrothal, but those are just hearsay and vision interpretation. I doubt either of them were faultless. I'm pretty sure there's more to it than two hot people being horny, but that mostly because that wouldn't be very high fantasy.

As for Robert: my objection to him has very been his promiscuity. Hell, Oberyn is one of my favourite characters and he might be about to challenge Robert on the "notches on the bedpost" count. It's that he gets all fired up, about his latest conquest or his latest child, and then he just moves on. Maybe there was some more to him when he was young and not a hopeless alcohol. Ned, certainly thinks he wasn't always such an asshole. But this aspect of his personality has always been there. I doubt it would have gone away even if he had married Lyanna. Definitely by the time we met him, she was an idealization that had little to do with reality.

[GHOSTSTARK]

He probably fucked boars and hunted whores.

Or is that the other way around?

Ramsay?

[corbon]

Aegon did not marry in Westeros and was married before he became King and conquered Westeros.

Dragonstone is part of Westeros. Not that it matters. Quibbling over irrelevancies here.

Maegor is listed as one of the mad kings on wiki though I do tend to agree. He was more cruel than mad.

Its a wiki. But even then, go to his page and you'll find not a single use of the word 'mad'. He was known as Maegor the Cruel, and was a strong King, just somewhat harsh. Not even slightly mad.

And yet despite that, they continued with incest but never polygamy.Not even Aegon 4 embraced Polygamy.

And yet GRRM said they may have (ie option was open), whether they did or not.

The 'no polygmay' is a terrible terrible argument from any perspective.

Jorah happens to disagree too.

Except he crowned Lyanna at Harrenhal before Aegon was even born.

Which has nothing to do with 'love' and everything to do with honouring her deeds as KotLT.

Note that while it can be used, and sometimes is used (eg Jorah), as an expression of romantic interest, that is not its intent or default position, as evidenced by the Whent brothers/uncle defending Miss Whent and all (well, most, some didn't follow all the rules all that well) the many times KG (no romantic interests allowed) have won tourneys.

When Rhaegar spurs his horse past his wife and lays the crown in Lyanna's lap, the first assumption of most people would be romantic interest and the shock and surprise (he's famously dutiful so was widely expected to boringly name Elia) would be more than enough to satisfy Ned's memory of 'all the smiles dying'. But given that there is zero further gossip about any romance between Rhaegar or Lyanna for around a year until the abduction, and given how big such gossip would be in the light of later events, its pretty clear that he either proactively or passively allayed any thoughts of it being romantic at that time, perhaps by going straight to Elia thereafter, or something similar, we don't know.

We do know that for around another 9 months Rhaegar continued successfully on his 3-heads-of-the-dragon plan with Elia as the mother. No mention of Lyanna, no need for Lyanna, dutifully carrying out the programme. Its only after Elia cannot provide the third head that any possibility of Lyanna entering the picture opens up.

Before he knew Elia would have no more kids. He shamed his Queen.

No he did not. There was no shame for Elia at Harrenhal unless there is more than what we have been told. Honouring some other woman is not dis-honouring his wife, unless there is more to the honouring than just the award.

Note that Dorne is 'angered' by Rhaegar's treatment of Elia (but still supports the crown) only later after he has actually abducted Elia, not at/from Harrenhal. A lot of people misquote that tidbit.

And unless I am wrong, it says Elia can no longer have children not that having anymore children would kill her (could be wrong though). In any case, this is a bit irreleavant to Lyanna's thought process.

I think you are wrong, another child would be a risk to her life and even more to the child's (ie conception was possible but a living child very very unlikely and a living mother almost as unlikely), but agree its irrelevant.

He was known as the Mad King. He was the person who intended to blow up KL (and his children and wife with it).

He was known as the Mad King 15 years after war.

His state when Rhaegar left and his state after Rhaegar died are two very very different things.

Before Rhaegar 'abducted' Lyanna Aerys was a paranoiac, slowly worsening since Duskendale, but still firmly in charge of things, ruling the land and still with strong support throughout the 7 kingdoms. Only a year earlier he'd been out to Harrnehal as ruling king and participated in the feasting etc. At the time of the 'abduction' he was not known then as 'the Mad King' (Scab king, perhaps yes), and there were no plots to blow up KL then.

Fast forward a year of increasingly downwardly spiralling madness, through a losing civil war, and yes, he's mad as a mad mad pyromaniacal nutcase, but thats not the same man by any evidence we have as Rhaegar left his wife and family with when he 'abducted' Lyanna.

He was the person who held his wife and children hostage when he could have sent them to safety. He was the person who raped his mother.

More misconstructions. Note that keeping Rahegar's wife and kids back in the Red Keep happened after Rhaegar died. It also kept them in the same place as the King, in a fortress never taken by storm or seige, still defended by thousands of goldcloaks and soldiers and with a friendly (supposedly) army on the way and another still at Storms End available to relieve the capital if it was invested. It was still the safest place they could be in the Seven Kingdoms, with the possible exception of Dragonstone which seems more like splitting eggs into two baskets rather than one, and some unknown secret location where nobody knew they were at (like ToJ).

And the 'rape' of Rhaella, while we would call it rape now, and it was reprehensible in many ways even then, was no more than the king exercising his rights to have marital relations with his wife. It also happened very near the end, so not done by the same person Rhaegar left his family with earlier.

And leaving for the Trident Rhaegar has no choice.

He was mad which is why there was talk about a coup. So, no, not bullshit after all.

Yes, still bullshit.

Aerys was paranoid and not making good decisions, and Rhaegar may have been looking for a way to legally remove him from power, but he was not, as far as we know, being called the Mad King back then. Nor had he done anything particularly mad or dangerous or devisive yet.

As I understand it, these sorts of descending paranoia/madness conditions usually follow a pattern where teh level of paranoia madness is a fairly level shallow slope downwards over time, with big downard jumps and/or big increases in downward slope happening at discrete times due to traumatic events or news. The 6 months spent captive at Duskendale seems to be the first big jump downward for Aerys, and Brandon's trial another. Probably bad news through the war, like the news of the loss at Battle of the Bells were more, who knows.

So, now we are down to counting how many times they had sex...Jesus. I repeat, she slept with a married man. She should NOT be complaining about who Robert is fucking before he has even married her. Seemingly, Robert was more faithful than Rhaegar was before the latter died. Now , that is a fact, which is more than I can say for your asertion abour Rhaegar likely being faithful.

No, we are not. Why is this impossible for you to understand? Its very very simple stuff.

She isn't complaining about who Robert fucks, she's complaining that he fucks in multiple places (people). He's promiscuous, and she's nailed him already, and she's right.

Robert was not faithful to anybody, ever, so your comment that he was seemingly more faithful than Rhaegar is either incredibly stupid or... I don't know what?

Everything we know about Rhaegar says he was faithful to Elia. Before and after she ceased being his bedmate. Until Lyanna, which may very well have been after they were married as well, which means he was never unfaithful to anyone in his life, we just don't know. But that is his characterisation (dutiful above all) and the evidence we have, so far.

He didn't love Cersie though and it was a political marriage. So, by your logic you can't blame Robert. With Cersie as his wife, it's wonder he didn't commit suicide. Rhaegar at least had Elia.

No it is not my logic, its your irrational response that ignores the key conditions and cherry-picks a handful of similarities to invent an opposite case to the one made.

If Robert had stopped sleeping with Cersei and picked one other woman to be faithful to, then I wouldn't blame him. But he didn't operate that way. He fucked anyone and everyone he could, including Cersei when he could. He wasn't faithful period, and thats what Lyanna complained of.

He, uh, rebelled against the Iron Throne. That was pretty much his reaction.

No it was not. We don't know what his reaction to Lyanna's 'abduction' was.

His reaction to Jon Arryn declaring a rebellion rather than sending Ned and Robert's heads to Aerys was to rebel against the Iron throne.

He cold have sent his head along instead. I'd go with joining the rebellion every time...

[Mikkel]

He was known as the Mad King 15 years after war.

I'm fairly sure that "the Mad King" will have come about at the start of the rebellion, at the very latest. It was probably being whispered in corners even before then. It's not something Robert or Ned started using at the beginning of AGOT and suddenly the whole of Westeros uses it (as would be the case if your claim with the 15 years after war was accurate). After all, the real reason for the rebellion was that Aerys was mad, and was murdering a Lord Paramount and his heir, and calling for the heads of more. Labeling him "the Mad King" will have been a political move on the part of Jon Arryn (and possibly Hoster Tully, we don't know the extent of his role), doubly so as it seems to be a title that was warranted in full.

[corbon]

I'm fairly sure that "the Mad King" will have come about at the start of the rebellion, at the very latest. It was probably being whispered in corners even before then. It's not something Robert or Ned started using at the beginning of AGOT and suddenly the whole of Westeros uses it (as would be the case if your claim with the 15 years after war was accurate). After all, the real reason for the rebellion was that Aerys was mad, and was murdering a Lord Paramount and his heir, and calling for the heads of more. Labeling him "the Mad King" will have been a political move on the part of Jon Arryn (and possibly Hoster Tully, we don't know the extent of his role), doubly so as it seems to be a title that was warranted in full.

I didn't say it started 15 years after the war, just that is when we saw it used. Its very unlikely Aerys was called it before Rhaegar 'abducted' Lyanna (and thats the time in question), because other than his growing paranioa at that stage he hadn't done anything mad. He was known whisperingly at times as 'Scab King' due to the cuts he got from the Iron Throne IIRC, which also argues againts being known as 'Mad King' back then.

The rebellion wasn't because he was 'mad' - doing insane things - but because he went too far doing sane things. Most of his maddest and most dangerously insane acts we know of come right near the end of the rebellion.

Note that even after calling for Ned and Robert's heads, Aerys still had a lot of support throughout the realm. The three rebels had to fight internal battles against their own lords who supported Aerys still, and then had to bribe Hoster Tully to join them. Tywin stayed out indicating that he didn't really support the rebels just was pissed at Aerys for personal reasons. The Tyrells and Martells were loyal. As objective a man as Stannis Baratheon found it a very hard call whether to support King or Lord/family, even though his family had been wronged. The 'Mad King' wasn't so mad as to be widely thought needing to be replaced.

Basically people need to remember that people change over time. Sometimes fast change, sometimes slow change. The Mad King Aerys at the end of the rebellion trying to engulf Kings Landing in wildfyre is not the same person as the Scab King Aerys from Harrenhal and around when Rhaegar 'abducted' Lyanna and the Scab King Aerys is a totally different person that the young, handsome, promising (but quick to anger) King Aerys who brought peace and prosperity to Westeros early in his reign.

But a lot of people get some very wrong ideas fixed in their head and seem unable to get past those ideas and see the wider picture.

[Disputatious]

Lyanna running away with a married man after voicing her doubts about Robert's faithfulness shows what a hypocrite she was. Looks like Lyanna liked to take the moral high ground while being a hypocrite.

We don't know whether Rhaegar promised her to "set Elia aside" , that is, divorce her. As for the other, what she said to her brother Eddard is likely not to have been her only objection to marrying Robert Barratheon, but it was probably the only one she thought she could voice under the circumstances. She knew Robert was Eddard's good friend: telling her brother that she thought his friend was a drunken asshole was just not on. "Love is sweet, dearest Eddard, but it cannot change a man's nature" can be read more broadly than just as an objection to Robert's habit of sleeping around.......

[Lee-Sensei]

Hed probably Be surprised that lyanna wanted to be with a woman instead of a man.

[Ser Eric]

Dragonstone is part of Westeros. Not that it matters. Quibbling over irrelevancies here.

Seven Kingdoms then. And no, it's not irrelevant. When Aegon married twice, he wasn't following the faith of the seven. He hadn't invaded or conquered the seven Kingdoms. So, we're back down to just Maegor.

Its a wiki. But even then, go to his page and you'll find not a single use of the word 'mad'. He was known as Maegor the Cruel, and was a strong King, just somewhat harsh. Not even slightly mad.

Strong king, who failed to quell the faith militant. A 'harsh' king who killed his wives when they did not give him an heir. Yeah, sure...harsh is just the word!

And yet GRRM said they may have (ie option was open), whether they did or not.

The 'no polygmay' is a terrible terrible argument from any perspective.

Jorah happens to disagree too.

And GRRM also says that the Targaryens dare not defy the faith too much. In, your own words they've kept on with the incest which is a far greater crime but never engaged in polygamy since Maegor. There's probably a very good reason for that. When there's been 1 polygamous marriage in 300 years of rule then I reserve right to question whether it was an option. In fact, had it been an option Rhaegar would have no need to hide Lyanna. He could have just married her openly and saved a lot of grief for everyone. So, it's not a terrible argument despite your best attempts to portray it as one.

And what does Jorah say?

Which has nothing to do with 'love' and everything to do with honouring her deeds as KotLT.

Complete and utter fabrication. And you accuse me of making up bullshit. Deary me...

No he did not. There was no shame for Elia at Harrenhal unless there is more than what we have been told. Honouring some other woman is not dis-honouring his wife, unless there is more to the honouring than just the award.

Note that Dorne is 'angered' by Rhaegar's treatment of Elia (but still supports the crown) only later after he has actually abducted Elia, not at/from Harrenhal. A lot of people misquote that tidbit.

He did. He crowned a woman who was not his wife as the Queen of love and beauty at a big tourney in front of most of the major lords of Westeros. We can only guess about Dorne's reaction and they only support the crown because Aerys has Elia hostage.

I think you are wrong, another child would be a risk to her life and even more to the child's (ie conception was possible but a living child very very unlikely and a living mother almost as unlikely), but agree its irrelevant.

Is there any evidence for this? Or is this another blatant attempt to make out Rhaegar as some kind of hero?

He was known as the Mad King 15 years after war.

His state when Rhaegar left and his state after Rhaegar died are two very very different things.

Before Rhaegar 'abducted' Lyanna Aerys was a paranoiac, slowly worsening since Duskendale, but still firmly in charge of things, ruling the land and still with strong support throughout the 7 kingdoms. Only a year earlier he'd been out to Harrnehal as ruling king and participated in the feasting etc. At the time of the 'abduction' he was not known then as 'the Mad King' (Scab king, perhaps yes), and there were no plots to blow up KL then.

Fast forward a year of increasingly downwardly spiralling madness, through a losing civil war, and yes, he's mad as a mad mad pyromaniacal nutcase, but thats not the same man by any evidence we have as Rhaegar left his wife and family with when he 'abducted' Lyanna.

Not true at all, unless you have some kind of evidence backing this up. There was a reason there was unrest and Rhaegar was either being wilfully blind or plain stupid not to see that Aerys was worsening. Him not leaving the red keep for years and then suddely coming to Harrenhal should have set the alarm bells ringing. And Rickard Stark wasn't an exception. He killed people using wildfire and got a rise out if for christ sake before he raped Rhaella. The signs were quite blatantly there.

More misconstructions. Note that keeping Rahegar's wife and kids back in the Red Keep happened after Rhaegar died. It also kept them in the same place as the King, in a fortress never taken by storm or seige, still defended by thousands of goldcloaks and soldiers and with a friendly (supposedly) army on the way and another still at Storms End available to relieve the capital if it was invested. It was still the safest place they could be in the Seven Kingdoms, with the possible exception of Dragonstone which seems more like splitting eggs into two baskets rather than one, and some unknown secret location where nobody knew they were at (like ToJ).

And the 'rape' of Rhaella, while we would call it rape now, and it was reprehensible in many ways even then, was no more than the king exercising his rights to have marital relations with his wife. It also happened very near the end, so not done by the same person Rhaegar left his family with earlier.

And leaving for the Trident Rhaegar has no choice.

Aerys kept them in Kingslanding because he planned to kill them or at least that's how it looks because he was planning to blow up everything. Signs for Aerys deteriorating mental health even before RR were plain for everyone to see...except Rhaegar and you it appears.

It did not just happen in the end. That's the one we are shown. The man raped her everytime he killed someone with fire. You're argument that Aerys was not mad is just ridiculous. He quite clearly was, even before RR.

Yes, still bullshit.

Aerys was paranoid and not making good decisions, and Rhaegar may have been looking for a way to legally remove him from power, but he was not, as far as we know, being called the Mad King back then. Nor had he done anything particularly mad or dangerous or devisive yet.

As I understand it, these sorts of descending paranoia/madness conditions usually follow a pattern where teh level of paranoia madness is a fairly level shallow slope downwards over time, with big downard jumps and/or big increases in downward slope happening at discrete times due to traumatic events or news. The 6 months spent captive at Duskendale seems to be the first big jump downward for Aerys, and Brandon's trial another. Probably bad news through the war, like the news of the loss at Battle of the Bells were more, who knows.

Look above.

If you still can't see the blatantly obvious signs that Aerys was completely loony then you are just being blind to actual reality.

No, we are not. Why is this impossible for you to understand? Its very very simple stuff.

She isn't complaining about who Robert fucks, she's complaining that he fucks in multiple places (people). He's promiscuous, and she's nailed him already, and she's right.

Robert was not faithful to anybody, ever, so your comment that he was seemingly more faithful than Rhaegar is either incredibly stupid or... I don't know what?

Everything we know about Rhaegar says he was faithful to Elia. Before and after she ceased being his bedmate. Until Lyanna, which may very well have been after they were married as well, which means he was never unfaithful to anyone in his life, we just don't know. But that is his characterisation (dutiful above all) and the evidence we have, so far.

It is indeed very simple stuff. You are just complicating it to suit your argument. When Lyanna says Robert will never keep to one bed, she's quite obviously saying that Robert will not be faithful to her and that's just not his nature. Which is why Ned's immediate reaction is to defend Robert and tell her that he loves her. Lyanna is not saying "I would be fine if Robert only fucked another girl besides me. That would show how faithful he is!!" Complete garbage.

And yes, before Rhaegar died, he had already been unfaithful to Elia. That's plain for everyone to see. Strawman argument. Rhaegar was faithful to Elia until Lyanna...wtf? He wasn't faithful. Full stop.

No it is not my logic, its your irrational response that ignores the key conditions and cherry-picks a handful of similarities to invent an opposite case to the one made.

If Robert had stopped sleeping with Cersei and picked one other woman to be faithful to, then I wouldn't blame him. But he didn't operate that way. He fucked anyone and everyone he could, including Cersei when he could. He wasn't faithful period, and thats what Lyanna complained of.

If that was not your logic then there is no need to even bring it up. It's completely irrelevant.

[A Bastard Snow]

We get to know Robert better than Rhaegar. Robert was a dim buffoon and he surely would have been as horrible to Lyanna as he was to Cercei.

Rhaegar was said to be handsome and smart. Maybe left alone they could have found some kind of happiness. But my reservation about Rhaegar is that he was very much a part of an arrogant dynasty that thought they could do whatever they wanted.

The Targaryens never took proper stock of the fact that the houses who felt close to The King were completely outgunned by those who felt alienated from him. And of course, they no longer had dragons. And that's why Robert's rebellion was always going to happen.

Yea Rhaegar was a grown man and should have known better.I never get why people blame Lyanna when she was a 14 year old while Rhaegar was what 24?I mean I honestly cant figure out what he expected to happen.Even a baseborn child would have known that was a bad idea and we are talking about someone people said was very smart and would make a great King yet he manages to turn 3 entire kingdoms against his family by pulling a dumbass move like that.

All those people who said Rhaegar was smart and would make a great king must have been delusional cause anyone stupid enough to pull a Paris should never be in charge of anything.

Was Paris/Helen what GRRM was going for with the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna thing?Cause it feels like it to me you know the whole taking another mans wife because you fell in love at first sight and it ends up bringing about the downfall of your entire family

[LordStoneheart]

All those people who said Rhaegar was smart and would make a great king must have been delusional cause anyone stupid enough to pull a Paris should never be in charge of anything.

]

Or perhaps, somewhere in the many gaps in our knowledge of the occurrence, there's something more than the surface of what it looks like, whether running off together or kidnapping.

I think there is something to be said of Lyanna being a Helen of Troy figure but as usual GRRM will probably have made it more complex for the characters than love at first sight. Could you imagine the endless praise he'll get for subverting the Iliad?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Or perhaps, somewhere in the many gaps in our knowledge of the occurrence, there's something more than the surface of what it looks like, whether running off together or kidnapping.

I think there is something to be said of Lyanna being a Helen of Troy figure but as usual GRRM will probably have made it more complex for the characters than love at first sight. Could you imagine the endless praise he'll get for subverting the Iliad?

It's not like the Iliad ended up with everybody holding hands and watching rainbows either...

Eric Bana died =(

[LordStoneheart]

It's not like the Iliad ended up with everybody holding hands and watching rainbows either...

Eric Bana died =(

Lol maybe not the whole Iliad but I refuse to pass judgment over the two characters when we have only bits and pieces to go by.

[Boarsbane]

Hed probably Be surprised that lyanna wanted to be with a woman instead of a man.

This