"Fixing" Feast/Dance. Three books, instead of two?

[The Mountain That Posts]

Hear me out before making judgments/assumptions.

Other internet theories on how they could have "fixed" books 4/5, and why they wouldn't actually fix anything:

So many people talk about how the events in books 4/5 would've been so much better if either: A.) they were two books with EVERY perspective, but split in half(first book ending with things like Tyrion being captured by Jorah, for instance) OR about how the two books should've been entirely 100% limited to certain perspectives with no crossover between them at the end of ADWD. I disagree with the idea that either of these would've been better.

The idea of having EVERY character(what is that, 20?) in two separate books would've basically meant book 4 would be nothing but place-setting and travelogues, leaving virtually no room for actual plot - to the point where i'm sure even the internet would recommend skipping the book. Meanwhile the fifth book clearly would've been ASoS levels of action, but with that number of characters, both books would've been daunting and jarring and confusing for even the most dedicated fans.

Meanwhile the idea of keeping all the Cersei/Vic/Asha/Jaime/Areo chapters in book 4(perhaps moving all the Arya chapters to book 5) would've made Feast way longer and Dance ultimately shorter, and I can't imagine either books would've been particularly loved MORE than they are currently if they followed that format. If anything, they'd be probably be about viewed the same as they are currently.

My theory:

What if all the events of books 4, 5 and the first third(or even half, who knows) of book real lif6 were all "at the same time" and spread out over three entire books?

Book 4, A Feast for Crows - The South:

So everything Riverlands, The Vale and below. Characters this includes: Prologue Pate, Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, Arys, Arianne, Areo, Kevan, Sansa

This means every chapter by all the above listed characters in books 4, 5 and the early chunk of 6. Every single one. Cersei's walk of shame in book 5? In this book, as well as her inevitable early book 6 chapters. Kevan's one(excellent) chapter? In this one, and not stupidly spoiled by the word "epilogue." All the earliest chapters of book 6 for these characters? In this specific book.

What benefits would this have be arranged in this way? For starters, I think it was the MIXTURE of Dornish and Greyjoy chapters which enraged so many people with real book 4. I think if they were spread out over multiple books, this wouldn't have bothered readers as much. Secondly, I think it's the lack of CONCLUSION with the main plots(Jaime, Cersei, Brienne, the Dornish) that also makes the Real Life book 4 feel so "fillerish" to so many people. Finally, this book being the first sets up some GREAT mysteries for the next two books as i'm about to talk about.

Between all the craziness that you'd learn about the Greyjoys on the west coast(underestimated by Kevan and Cersei, no less) and the utter lack of knowledge about how's landing on the East Coast near Storm's End(from both Kevan/Cersei and the Dornish perspectives), that sets up some GREAT mysteries for the upcoming books. As well as Stannis seemingly being screwed by

loosing Dragonstone and Storm's End.

Not to mention smaller mysteries like "how did Quentyn's quest go? Is he with this eastern force?" "Is Davos really dead?" "Where the hell is Tyrion/Arya/whoever?" "How will the Iron Bank react to Cersei/Kevan?" (some of these mysteries exist after reading the Real Life book 4, but I think this would preserve or even encourage these mysteries even more)

Naturally this all sets up the mysteries of the Essos book, to the point where you naturally can't wait to read it!

Least possible number of chapters: 38. (would realistically be more likely somewhere between 45 and 60)

Book 5, A Dance with Dragons - Essos:

Everything Essosi. Characters this includes: An Essosi prologue of some sort, Dany, Barristan, Quentyn, Tyrion, Griff, Arya, Samwell

Same goes for book 4. All of Arya's book 4/5 chapters in this one book, as well as early chapters in book 6. Same goes for these other characters. Naturally this also means this book would go up to and include the entirety of the battle of Meereen, the natural climax of the book - as well as more of Griff's conquest into Westeros, as well as more of the squid's terror in the west via Samwell's perspective.

Samwell gives us our brief glimpse into the Wall/North(further setting up more mysteries), and travels to Oldtown(furthering the mysteries of the new Greyjoy leader) while spending considerable time in Braavos. He's the least appropriate in this "book," but I still think he'd ultimately fit. Plus it sows the seeds of Griff eventually being on Westeros by the end of this book so it wouldn't be quite as jarring as it would've been otherwise. ;)

Arya TWoW sample chapter:

We get to see the immediate repercussions of Harys Swift being sent to Essos, and perhaps(speculation) Stannis's men, coming to Braavos. Which naturally makes it feel like a followup to the previous book, as well as sowing more Stannis mysteries.

Another benefit to this book being arranged this way is it gives the reader REAL time to adjust to Essos and it's much, much expanded mythology(compared with previous books, anyway) without constant backlash to the North / Cersei / whatever which is a huge part of why so many people resent the Knot IMO, as well as the lack of a followup in a battle. Which we'd see here in this book as well. Boom, no more utter universal hatred for the knot.

You might be wondering, "But Spencer? What about Victarian's role in the battle and Essos?" Well glad you asked! Because you don't get any Victarian chapters in this book, combined with the prior mentioned Samwell chapters, you'll be getting one HELL of a "what the fuck Greyjoys" in this book. Now I don't know whether the actual Battle of Meereen WOULD still work without Vic's chapters(i'm not going to read them early, no thank you) but assuming the essentials of the battle can be told from a Tyrion/Barristan/perhaps Dany perspective, the battle can still work. Just with one big WHAT THE FUCK GREYJOYS. Also if the Dragon Horn is real, it creates further "WAT" moments for the reader.

Of course, if Vic dies in the battle itself - then it might not quite work, because thematically, it'd be dumb to read in book 6 upon him traveling to a city, just for him to die - when you already knew he was going to die from the start. But i'm assuming Vic will survive in some way or another.

Least number of chapters possible: 43 (probably realistically around 50 to 55)

Book 6, A Taste of Winter - The North:

Everything in the North, Iron Islands and Beyond the Wall. Characters this includes: Prologue Varamyr, Jon Snow, Bran, Mel, Davos, Theon, Asha, Aeron, Vic

Finally, Greyjoy stuff make sense. Sure this book might seem overwhelmingly Greyjoy in the same way book 4 would be overwhelmingly Dornish and Lannister, but that's part of the point. We see the reprecussions of Theon not being present(as well as the world from his perspective), we see Vic / Aeron / Asha on the Islands then we quickly see them separate. Victarian to the seas by the middle third of the book, Asha to Deepwood, Aeron to ???? only to possibly reappear in one of the last chapters(depending on WHEN GRRM has Aeron's chapters take place in TWoW)

We finally understand everything Greyjoy, and the book ends with a depressing reunion of Theon and Asha - possibly ending in his death? Who knows! We get all of Vic's thoughts to and from Meereen as well, giving us the complete picture of that as well as making us understand the dragon horn which we previously would have had no knowledge of - assuming it works and does great things in the battle.

We'd also get Davos's journeys into Skaagos, which really should've probably been in the real life book 5 to begin with. (which would create a further parallel with book 4, since Samwell passes and thinks about Skaagos) And of course, way more of Bran's silliness for the weirdos that actually like reading his chapters.

The book rushes to the ultimate climax of the battle of winter between Roose Bolton and Stannis. Now Jon Snow being Ceaser'd and the mysteries of the Pink Letter is probably my all time favorite cliffhanger in this series, so maybe the wall stuff COULD end there - or maybe not. I don't know how much wall stuff and events of the ACTUAL battle we'd be able to see that would preserve the cliffhanger, or if that cliffhanger would ultimately be a chapter-only one.

Also this book would feature interesting moments of the Night's Watch and Ironmen both being exposed to the red religion and their crazy burnings.

Note: The title "A Taste of Winter" was taken from GRRM's personal blogs, as these are what he titles the posts with links to the new sample chapters from the real life TWoW. But I also think "A Taste of Winter" is a great title. For starters, because this book takes place furthest north where naturally the effects of an impending winter would be felt the most. And secondly, because it makes sense if all three books end when "winter has arrived" that the third of the three have a title in reference to this. But it's just a silly idea I had, I barely thought about this. haha

Least number of chapters possible: 39 (probably realistically 50-60)

Small observations on the whole:

- With this concept in mind, each of the three books would have ONE main POV stark. Feast would have Sansa, Dance would have Arya, Taste would have Bran. Jon Snow is obviously not included because he's a Snowgaryen ;)

- Every book would have solid enough references to the other books that they SHOULD theoretically be able to be read in any order(6 then 4 then 5, for instance) but I arranged them in a way that made the most sense IMO for setting up mysteries in the other novels.

- This would mean "books" 4 and 6 both have 9 POV characters, while book 5 would only have 8. However given the least number of chapters possible and the contents of what would happen thereafter in book 5, it's safe to say it'd be just as long(if not longer) than the other two books despite being a POV character shorter.

- When The Winds of Winter is ACTUALLY out, I would likely be willing to partake in a new "ordering" of the chapters(much in a way the internet has redesigned books 4/5 as if they were one) - so when it comes out, if I decide to undertake such a project, this thread might get bumped. :P

- Don't be too cruel, okay? It's really late and I was bored so I wanted to make this thread since these are thoughts i've had for a long while.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Possible end points for characters!

Book 4:

Cersei - after her trial
Jaime/Brienne - meeting Stoneheart
Sansa - same as in book 4
The Dornish - the Snakes and Arianne all on their missions

Book 5:
Dany - Meeting the Dothraki horde leader of whatever horde she's going to, or learning of the aftermath of the Battle of Meereen, or something of the sort
Barristan and Tyrion - Battle of Meereen and IMMEDIATE aftermath
Griff - No idea, perhaps taking Storm's End and when Aegon meets Arianne? Literally no idea.
Samwell - more Oldtown drama with Euron
Arya - her TWoW prologue and perhaps whatever chapter or two comes afterwards, depending on what happens!

Book 6:
Davos - perhaps meeting or "retrieving" Rickon?
Bran - Him actually doing something relevant
Theon - His death / escape?
Asha - Battle for Winterfell
Vic - Immediate aftermath of Battle of Meereen, with him fleeing / sticking around / whatever
Aeron - him summoning a great kraken to crush the world. Or something


These are all just speculative spitballs though, the lack of The Winds of Winter makes it impossible to know how well my format actually would or wouldn't work. But theorizing is fun.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Bumping now that it isn't 4 AM. haha

[Hangover of the Morning]

Well, my take on it is the exact opposite: massively condensing it and publishing it as one book that has a beginning, set-up, a climatic event (or events) and an ending.

Anyway, good job. I am sure it could have worked how you describe it.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Well, my take on it is the exact opposite: massively condensing it and publishing it as one book that has a beginning, set-up, a climatic event (or events) and an ending.

Anyway, good job. I am sure it could have worked how you describe it.

I feel like a very large chunk of books 4/5 will prove to be both more enjoyable and make more sense for it's existence upon rereading the series after it's been entirely completed. :)

Also shameless bump. (last one, I promise)

[Ser Furious]

I think this could have worked. I have a similar opinion to others in that I would have liked to see a vastly condensed single book.

IMO the Brienne and Arya storylines could be cut out almost completely (they have their interesting parts, and I particularly like Brienne's but they are too much like GRRM just taking a victory lap in his own world). If Arya's ending in ASOS was more ambiguous about her surviving that could make for an even more badass reveal of her as an assassin later on.

Cut out the Dorne chapters too, except maybe change the prologue to Arys being killed by Areo.

Change Tyrion's arc so that he stays with Griff since his story seriously dragged after he was kidnapped by Jorah and you could eliminate the JonCon POV chapters that way too.

Drop Aeron's chapters.

Finally, and this is a pretty big change up, drop Quentyn's chapters and complete character (ne of the only badass parts of AFFC is Doran's big Fire and Blood reveal and that gets completely ruined when you meet Quentyn and its all Whine and Mud instead) and turn him into Daario somehow but leave his death the same or similar (he should die showing Dany that she needs to stop being an idiot and get back on the Dragon Wagon).

Other than that just do the stuff you have mentioned, actually include the big battles to give the book/s an ending, give Davos an actual arc instead of just dropping him right when it gets interesting and conclude Cersie's arc with her trial, Jaimi's arc with his meeting with Stoneheart, and Tyrion/Aegon's with him taking Stormsend.

[Good Guy Garlan]

The idea of having EVERY character(what is that, 20?) in two separate books would've basically meant book 4 would be nothing but place-setting and travelogues, leaving virtually no room for actual plot - to the point where i'm sure even the internet would recommend skipping the book.

Seems that's what we got with Feast anyway

You know, I like this idea. For one, it would have made the series look less sprawling and focused, at least when viewed as individual books. The problem would be moving forward. Like, once you've limited the story geographically how do you start combining and uniting the threads again? In the end you'd still have the problem of having just too many storylines, too many characters, and too many POVs, which really is the main issue

[Faint]

All that is needed is to combine the two and add in the battles that start The Winds of Winter, then split them back into two books the size of A Storm of Swords, getting rid off the artificial geographical divide.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Seems that's what we got with Feast anyway

You know, I like this idea. For one, it would have made the series look less sprawling and focused, at least when viewed as individual books. The problem would be moving forward. Like, once you've limited the story geographically how do you start combining and uniting the threads again? In the end you'd still have the problem of having just too many storylines, too many characters, and too many POVs, which really is the main issue

If events went further in Feast(Cersei's trial, the Kevan chapter, Jaime meeting Stoneheart, the book 5 Dorne chapter) then it would've had a more complete feel due to the climaxes IMO.

And I don't think so, I think if every three books in the series had a different structure - it'd fit the series well, and keep with Martin's love of 3's. No idea what the last three books would do structurally that would be unique, but *shrug* - just spitballin.

All that is needed is to combine the two and add in the battles that start The Winds of Winter, then split them back into two books the size of A Storm of Swords, getting rid off the artificial geographical divide.

If you combined all of Dance and Feast and let's say the first 300 pages of Wins(give or take, who knows) - and then split the two in half you'd have one book ASoS size where NOTHING happens but buildup. Sure you could end it with things like Cersei sending Jaime away from King's Landing, Brienne meeting Stoneheart, Tyrion being taken by Ser Jorah in the tavern, Jon burning Mance and letting the wildlings pass, etc. but as a whole - book 4 would be WAY long and incredibly dull, and with 20 something POVs, it'd be horribly hard to get into as well. In short, book 4 would be utterly despised.

Meanwhile book 5 would be huge, and be ASoS levels of CRAZY all the way through.

Even books 1 and 2, while ultimately all buildup for book 3, have shit tons of crazy go down and books 1/2 both have their very own climaxes and complete arks of their own. If book 4 was like this, it'd hands down be the worst book in the series in a LOT of ways. And based off the number of people I know who gave up reading the story in book 4, I imagine that number would be way higher if book 4 was the way you describe.

It'd definitely make book 5 probably the best/craziest book in the series though, for sure.

[Faint]

If you combined all of Dance and Feast and let's say the first 300 pages of Wins(give or take, who knows) - and then split the two in half you'd have one book ASoS size where NOTHING happens but buildup . . .

It would be difficult for me to argue that the fourth book in such a scenario would be teaming with fireworks in its concluding chapters, but the same can be justifiably said about the fourth and fifth books as they are right now. So many storylines heading into The Winds of Winter are simply paused without anything resembling resolution and hardly any characters had proper novel arcs in the last two books, with a few exceptions (i.e., Daenerys, Jon, Cersei, Theon and arguably Bran). Where was the release in the buildup for Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Jaime, Davos and Brienne? None of their last chapters in either A Feast for Crows or A Dance with Dragons could be said to read like proper concluding chapters in a novel, even within a multi-volume work.