The Sacred Order of Green Men.

[RumHam]

Godswoods, associated with the CotF, specificially Greenseers, are scattered mostly throughout the North with few exceptions, Isle of Faces being one of them.

The idea that the Isle of Faces is the only place to find weirwoods in the south is a common misconception based on something Catelyn says early in Game of Thrones:

In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch. Up here it was different. Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face.

But of all the southern castles we've seen, the only one we know doesn't have a godswood is the Eyrie (and it's worth noting that the Andal builders of the Eyrie did try to plant a weirwood heart tree, for whatever reason.) Dragonstone also probably doesn't have one. The only godswood we see with a non-weirwood heart tree is the one in King's Landing. We know there were godswoods with weirwoods at Storm's End, Casterly Rock, Harrenhal, Raventree Hall, and Riverrun (so Catelyn really should have known they did exist in the south.)

It's possible that these castles are the few exceptions, but based on the limited data we have it seems like not having a godswood with a weirwood heart tree is the exception, anywhere. Even as recently as the construction of Harrenhal people were still putting wierwood heart trees in their godswoods in the south.

Edit: none of this is especially relevant to the point you're trying to make, just saying.

[yolkboy]

Interesting looking at the map - the IoF is the pupil of the God's eye - the part of the eye that sees.

With the 'green' and the fact this anchient order never seem to leave the place, and the wierwoods - perhaps some tree-men is my guess for green men.

[Modesty Lannister]

A few other random thoughts about the Rhoynish.

The Rhoynish brought their own gods to Dorne, though these largely fell from favor. Curious which gods they worshipped, having come from SW Essos between Valyria and the destroyed Arm.

The Isle of Faces, associated with the Green Men, is on the God's Eye Lake, not too far from the Trident (meeting of three rivers - this one might be a stretch but it's not a long travel).

Godswoods, associated with the CotF, specificially Greenseers, are scattered mostly throughout the North with few exceptions, Isle of Faces being one of them.

Godsgrace, seat of House Allyrion, lies at the Junction of Greenblood, Vaith and Scourge Rivers (meeting of three).

The Bastard of Godsgrace, Daemon Sand (a name with Targ/Dorne roots) was/is a lover of Arianne Martell and squire to Oberyn.

Sigil is a golden right hand on red and black. Words are rumored to be No Foe May Pass.

so, just throwing that out to the OP

Great stuff. Just to throw something else in. ToJ is situated on the Prince's Pass between Kingsgrave and Nightsong. House Fowler is the Warden of Prince's Pass. Their words are Let Me Soar with a hawk on their sigil. Do they originate from the Vale? Are they also descendants of the First Men like Daynes and Yornwoods?

[WeaselPie]

The idea that the Isle of Faces is the only place to find weirwoods in the south is a common misconception based on something Catelyn says early in Game of Thrones:

But of all the southern castles we've seen, the only one we know doesn't have a godswood is the Eyrie (and it's worth noting that the Andal builders of the Eyrie did try to plant a weirwood heart tree, for whatever reason.) Dragonstone also probably doesn't have one. The only godswood we see with a non-weirwood heart tree is the one in King's Landing. We know there were godswoods with weirwoods at Storm's End, Casterly Rock, Harrenhal, Raventree Hall, and Riverrun (so Catelyn really should have known they did exist in the south.)

It's possible that these castles are the few exceptions, but based on the limited data we have it seems like not having a godswood with a weirwood heart tree is the exception, anywhere. Even as recently as the construction of Harrenhal people were still putting wierwood heart trees in their godswoods in the south.

Edit: none of this is especially relevant to the point you're trying to make, just saying.

Yes, I said mostly... obv. Isle of Faces is one of the very few exceptions in the South.

Great stuff. Just to throw something else in. ToJ is situated on the Prince's Pass between Kingsgrave and Nightsong. House Fowler is the Warden of Prince's Pass. Their words are Let Me Soar with a hawk on their sigil. Do they originate from the Vale? Are they also descendants of the First Men like Daynes and Yornwoods?

Yes, the location of the TOJ is curiously situated. Kingsgrave and Nightsong are very evocative words, aren't they?

Interesting association between the Fowlers (name meaning bird catcher or trainer I believe) and the Vale.

Damnit George! You rascal.

I thought the Golden Hand sigil of House Allyrion (rhyme time) was a glaring nod to a certain favorite KG, in some manner. And why such an obvious Targ name for a Dornish bastard?

Curiouser and Curiouser.

Amazing topic OP. Brings up so many questions.

[RumHam]

Yes, I said mostly... obv. Isle of Faces is one of the very few exceptions in the South.

Well my point was that it might be more accurate to say "most castles" instead of "a few exceptions." Of course it could be that every castle but those I listed does not have a weirwood, but that seems unlikely to me.

[WeaselPie]

Interesting looking at the map - the IoF is the pupil of the God's eye - the part of the eye that sees.

With the 'green' and the fact this anchient order never seem to leave the place, and the wierwoods - perhaps some tree-men is my guess for green men.

Oh hey just throwing in how Jojen's eyes turned green after a bout of Greywater Fever. I always wondered if this was a variation on Greyscale?

Green Men on the green (pupil) of the God's Eye Island, Jojen's eyes turn green when he gets the greensight.

We all know George loves color association.

Prince Garin of Rhoyne water-bended and somehow cause Greyscale/Stone men, and his descendants fled to the Greenblood, led by Nymeria.

The CotF earth and water-bended the Neck and Greywater Fever is common in seems associated only with the Neck.

Question, where is Nymeria the direwolf? In or near any of these areas?

-

ergo, a stretch, elemental magic causes greywater fever, which may induce greensight in certain special individuals?

Elemental magic caused Greyscale?

Maybe some other elemental magic, by extension, causes wightness and Otherness (obviously).

Ties up.

Well my point was that it might be more accurate to say "most castles" instead of "a few exceptions." Of course it could be that every castle but those I listed does not have a weirwood, but that seems unlikely to me.

I didn't say most castles, I said Godswoods were mostly located in the North, sorry not to be clear.

[Modesty Lannister]

Yes, I said mostly... obv. Isle of Faces is one of the very few exceptions in the South.

Yes, the location of the TOJ is curiously situated. Kingsgrave and Nightsong are very evocative words, aren't they?

Interesting association between the Fowlers (name meaning bird catcher or trainer I believe) and the Vale.

Damnit George! You rascal.

I thought the Golden Hand sigil of House Allyrion (rhyme time) was a glaring nod to a certain favorite KG, in some manner. And why such an obvious Targ name for a Dornish bastard?

Curiouser and Curiouser.

Amazing topic OP. Brings up so many questions.

Oh, yes. And why are Fowler twins hanging with Arianne Martell all the time? But, that's a topic for a different thread. Sorry, OP.

[RumHam]

I didn't say most castles, I said Godswoods were mostly located in the North, sorry not to be clear.

I think you were pretty clear, I'm just being a little nit-picky of your wording, sorry about that. I really think the idea that weirwood heart trees in the south are a rarity is false, and tend to state my case at any opportunity.

Also I just remembered Brienne encounters a young weirwood at Crackclaw point. It could have been a heart tree of the ruins of a castle, but it's youth probably suggests otherwise.

The bailey opened up before her, overgrown. To her left was the main gate, and the collapsed shell of what might have been a stable. Saplings were poking out of half the stalls and growing up through the dry brown thatch of its roof. To her right she saw rotted wooden steps descending into the darkness of a dungeon or a root cellar. Where the keep had been was a pile of collapsed stones, overgrown with green and purple moss. The yard was all weeds and pine needles. Soldier pines were everywhere, drawn up in solemn ranks. In their midst was a pale stranger; a slender young weirwood with a trunk as white as a cloistered maid. Dark red leaves sprouted from its reaching branches. Beyond was the emptiness of sky and sea where the wall had collapsed...

[WeaselPie]

Oh, yes. And why are Fowler twins hanging with Arianne Martell all the time? But, that's a topic for a different thread. Sorry, OP.

Actually, I think it could be part of this topic. We've tied a few knots in the OP's theory, but he/she seems interested enough in the parallels.

Not a bad place to untie them to see where it leads, if OP agrees. I personally never see any harm in extending an OP's thoughts but I'll sit back and see where this one leads.

Still, pretty insane connections once considered. And we know G will spend a lot of time in Dorne in Twow. He also said we'll spend more time in the North and with the CotF.

So yeah anyway. Cheers.

[WeaselPie]

I think you were pretty clear, I'm just being a little nit-picky of your wording, sorry about that. I really think the idea that weirwood heart trees in the south are a rarity is false, and tend to state my case at any opportunity.

Also I just remembered Brienne encounters a young weirwood at Crackclaw point. It could have been a heart tree of the ruins of a castle, but it's youth probably suggests otherwise.

Hey no prob, I know there are random Weirwoods, but I was talking specifically of Godswoods. No harm.

[WeaselPie]

First, I want to thank OP and all the posters for this incredible thread. It's well thought through and the exchange is a breath of fresh air at this forum, which looks like a Recycle Bin since lack of new material is obviously driving everyone nuts.

That being said, I'd like to add couple of points.

1. Some of you mentioned a magical barrier around the Isle of Faces. That would make sense and there is a precedent - the cave where BR and Bran are. Obviously, the Others and Whites cannot enter the cave, so there must be a magical barrier.

2. Order of Green Men reminds me of the 13 Others we've seen on the show. Let me explain. GRRM said that the Others have been misunderstood. I agree with OP's assumption that the Order of Green Men probably aims to preserve the natural balance. CotF drain their power from the earth and command water since they broke the arm of Dorne, separating continents, and flooded the Neck. So, it makes sense to me that the Order of Green Men should be taking care of the Ice side of the scales. That would mean that they actually create or control the Others. I see the Others as creatures who only show up when natural balance is disturbed. At this point, I'd like to remind you that Others emerged during the night that never ends. But, what came first? The night, or the Others? At this point in time, seasons are out of balance. That balance was probably disturbed by Doom of Valyria. So, if the OoGM controls the Others, it would make sense to have a creature like Coldhands riding an elk. I'd like to applaud the posters who thought of the link between the elk and CotF and the one who thought about the destruction of Hardhome as an attempt to maintain the pact between the First Men and CotF.

3. Also, the Rhoynar link is more than interesting. So, if the OoGM is supposed to take care of the ice side of the balance, it makes sense to believe that the Rhoynars and some similar order should be there to take care of fire. And, probably, that's where things went terribly wrong. Hence the Doom. Imho the story of 300 dragons evaporating all water from the Rhoyne can be considered as disturbance of natural balance that triggered the Doom. Or the Doom was Rhoynar revenge, maybe? So, if I draw another parallel, if the OoGM is controlling the Others, there must have been a similar system in the south. Maybe, there were 13 creatures in the south maintaining the balance on the fire side while being controlled by the Rhoynars? My sneaking suspicion would be that Mel is one of these creatures. She is fire made flesh, just like the Others are ice made flesh. Also, Valyrians never attempted to invade Westeros before the Doom, so there must have been a pact there as well. Dragonstone was their watch post. Don't forget that before the conquest, Aegon spent some time in Dorne (consulting with the Rhoynars maybe?) and the Old Town (consulting with Hightowers?). I can only conclude that the OoGM's opposition to dragons in Westeros was an attempt to maintain the original pact and preserve the balance. Maybe, Aegon promised to kill his dragons after the invasion and then changed his mind, I don't know, but dragons were never a part of Westeros before his invasion.

4. Finally, and I don't want this to turn into the ToJ thread either, the observation about 3KGs - Whent, Dayne and Hightower is pure genius. Let me take it further if I may. Ned Stark (in the show, I'm not sure about the books) decapitates a NW deserter within a circle of a stonehenge. In the show, we saw the High Other (or the Night King) turning Craster's son within a circle of an icehenge (I counted 10 ice blocks, an even number). Howland Reed and Ned Stark created 8 cairns out of the stones of the demolished tower, stones that were sprayed by blood. This has always looked too ritualistic to me. It looks like a crainhenge and blood magic are involved. Since, Reed visited the Isle of Faces and knew a lot about the OoGM, I wouldn't be surprised that the event of construction of that henge is highly magical and extremely significant.

I'd like to hear your thoughts. I hope it's not too crackpot.

Sorry I missed this when you posted it.

1). Magical Barriers - God's Eye absolutely possible as you say. Definitely the Wall. Storm's End. Absolutely the Sorrows (Rhoyne). BR's cave.

Possibly other areas, but sticking with what we know for sure.

2 and 3). So are you saying there seems to be some sort of *hidden* Grand Plan by the metamagical creatures? I love this idea. It works.

As I mentioned, we see the repercussions of "magic" on humans.

Garin - Rhoyne - used water magic against Valyrians- caused Greyscale/Stone Men, a communicable disease. Major disruption of nature/flooding of the Rhoyne. Song of Fire and Water.

CotF - the Neck - used water or earth magic - caused Greywater Fever, a communicable disease - induces the greensight in Jojen and he gets green eyes. Nature disruption yet again. Song of Earth and Water.

CotF - the Arm of Dorne - against the First Men (Ice? - stretching it). Song of Earth and Ice.

R'hollor - fire magic - a form of greensight, let's call it redsight, plus the power of resurrection, which I would not call a disease, but it is certainly communicable. Caused by a fire disruption... Doom of Valyria? Song of Fire and...?

The Others - ice magic - wightness is a communicable disease when dead, Otherness is a communicable disease when alive. Caused by an ice disruption? Song of Ice and...?

Huh.

Putting a bit aside to think.

ETA - OP, I really hope this isn't off-track, I'm trying to focus on the excellent "balance of nature" slant to your theory.

Mental Hiatus, I'm also adding a link to a song I love, listen if you want. XTC - Green Man http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbhQURN9Szw

[Lady Woodland]

This makes me think of first-men weddings. With a heart tree present and everything.

Could it be that 'The Pact', was actually a marriagepact between one of the Children and one of the First Men and that the Green Men (and maybe the crannogmen as well) are the offspring of this marriage?

The marriagepact would symbolize the union of the two races and the married couple, as well as their offspring, would be charged with protecting the balance in the world (Ice and Fire). This could also explain why some crannogmen receive greendreams, and maybe even Howland saving Ned's life at the TOJ.

(snipped for space)

@ Three Eyed Monkey,

Just echoing other posters, great post, very original & fun read,

With regard to Carcetti's post just wanted to add, a side bar. When the "Reed's" first come before Bran they swear an Oath of fealty to Bran he's never heard before, I don't have my books with me here, so apologies in advance if I get it wrong, I'm going on memory, but it goes something like, We pledge our swords & harvest in return for the protection of our people etc. "I swear it by Bronze & Iron" said Meera, "I swear by Earth & Water" said Jojen "We swear it by Ice and Fire" they finished together. (this is not Verbatim sorry, but you get the idea.)

When I did my re-read it occurred to me that GRRM seemed to make a big deal of Bran's reaction to the Oath thinking he'd never heard that one & didn't really know how to reply, skimming through this passage on the surface it comes off as Bran just being a little confronted & confused about what is expected of him while sitting in the Lords' seat & welcoming the other Lords who come to pledge fealty, but I think there is a link there. & Carcetti may have just found it.

[WeaselPie]

LW, excellent addition.

Sorry to seem obsessed but... OP? The Rhoynish (water) taught the Andals how to work (iron), contrasing with the CotF (earth) and the First Men (bronze)

So ice and fire is the next and final battle and possible pact.

ETA as ML suggested, there are likely multiple Pacts in play.

[Fire Eater]

Like the research on the green man traditions.

I think the Green Men are immortals or near enough. Otherwise where would they get new recruits in an area dominated by the Seven? They could have their lifespans lengthened by a drink made form weirwood sap or seeds akin to the Undying lining off of the shade-of-the-evening from the blue trees around the HotU. The antlers they supposedly have could be wierwood tree branches akin to the Storm King in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn.

Another interesting thing, how come the Isle of Faces was spared the ravages of the Andals when they were cutting and burning down every heart tree in sight?

There is also the hint from Ran that Daemon Targaryen survived the fall, and dwells on the God's Eye.

I think we will see the Isle of Faces in Dany or Tyrion's POV when they likely stay at Harrenhal as a base for their allies to gather given its location. I think we may meet Daemon there.

There is another passage I vaguely remember about the CotF using trees as warriors. I don't have electronic books so finding it could prove difficult. It must be in one of Bran's chapters. And of course there is the passage where the tree drops its burden of snow on Bran outside the cave. Very Ent like, but I don't know if GRRM would go there, at least not without subverting the idea, even if they are the ultimate in green man symbolism in the fantasy genre.

[Carcetti]

@ Three Eyed Monkey,

Just echoing other posters, great post, very original & fun read,

With regard to Carcetti's post just wanted to add, a side bar. When the "Reed's" first come before Bran they swear an Oath of fealty to Bran he's never heard before, I don't have my books with me here, so apologies in advance if I get it wrong, I'm going on memory, but it goes something like, We pledge our swords & harvest in return for the protection of our people etc. "I swear it by Bronze & Iron" said Meera, "I swear by Earth & Water" said Jojen "We swear it by Ice and Fire" they finished together. (this is not Verbatim sorry, but you get the idea.)

When I did my re-read it occurred to me that GRRM seemed to make a big deal of Bran's reaction to the Oath thinking he'd never heard that one & didn't really know how to reply, skimming through this passage on the surface it comes off as Bran just being a little confronted & confused about what is expected of him while sitting in the Lords' seat & welcoming the other Lords who come to pledge fealty, but I think there is a link there. & Carcetti may have just found it.

Ah good find there! And thanks for the kind words. I will think on it some more.

With regards to the rhoynar, I'm trying to find a possible connection between Prince Garin and the Green Men (or even Westeros for that matter). Maybe there is none at all, but it is worth exploring I would think.

[The_Crannogman]

There is also the hint from Ran that Daemon Targaryen survived the fall, and dwells on the God's Eye.

I think we will see the Isle of Faces in Dany or Tyrion's POV when they likely stay at Harrenhal as a base for their allies to gather given its location. I think we may meet Daemon there.

Do you know where this hint from Ran is located?

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

@ Three Eyed Monkey,

Just echoing other posters, great post, very original & fun read,

With regard to Carcetti's post just wanted to add, a side bar. When the "Reed's" first come before Bran they swear an Oath of fealty to Bran he's never heard before, I don't have my books with me here, so apologies in advance if I get it wrong, I'm going on memory, but it goes something like, We pledge our swords & harvest in return for the protection of our people etc. "I swear it by Bronze & Iron" said Meera, "I swear by Earth & Water" said Jojen "We swear it by Ice and Fire" they finished together. (this is not Verbatim sorry, but you get the idea.)

When I did my re-read it occurred to me that GRRM seemed to make a big deal of Bran's reaction to the Oath thinking he'd never heard that one & didn't really know how to reply, skimming through this passage on the surface it comes off as Bran just being a little confronted & confused about what is expected of him while sitting in the Lords' seat & welcoming the other Lords who come to pledge fealty, but I think there is a link there. & Carcetti may have just found it.

Wow, I absolutely love this. I need to reread this part.

Again, not to turn this into a ToJ thread, but I've always suspected that Gerold's "we swore a vow" comment at the TOJ meant something entirely different than the KG vows. And Dayne's "And now it begins" likewise never meant "And now the fight begins." He was referring to much grander events, IMO.

[redrose]

The fact the isle of faces was the location where the pact was made between the FM and the CoTF should give us clues as to where magic within certain houses was attained. I think this was part of the trade off for men to stop chopping down Weirwoods whereby FM agreed to follow the old gods and claim some of the CoTF magic. If we look at some of the oldest FM houses we start to get the picture. Starks are able to warg with Direwolves. The Daynes end up with the most magical sword in westeros. The royces have a rune studded bronze armour that protects the wearer from being hit. The black woods have the ability to shape shift and the "current" last greenseer. I know the Hightowers claim to date the family back to the first men but I'm not sure what magical ability they may have procured ( except for the ability to build a ridiculously large light house where the current lord and his daughter have locked themselves away practicing magic). I know there are other first men house who could have provided wise men to treat with the CoTF on the isle of faces but I can't remember ATM. (Help) do all these houses still have Weirwoods in their godswoods. Blackwoods, Starks. Hightowers definitely do but not sure about the Daynes or royces?

The OoGM was created at the pact as guardians of the Weirwoods trees which I believe was a way for the pact to have been enforced which would keep the first men from committing more wide spread atrocities against the CoTF . As has been mentioned I think the OoGM must have some ability with magic to prevent all comers from paying a visit but I do wonder how much of the magic within westeros do they control? I think they will have a significant part to play as the story reaches it's conclusion and I hope we get to find out which of the FM houses were present for the original pact on the isle of faces:)

[Modesty Lannister]

Wow, I absolutely love this. I need to reread this part.

Again, not to turn this into a ToJ thread, but I've always suspected that Gerold's "we swore a vow" comment at the TOJ meant something entirely different than the KG vows. And Dayne's "And now it begins" likewise never meant "And now the fight begins." He was referring to much grander events, IMO.

I have been advocating that there was no battle at the ToJ, but a reenactment of a vow, for some time now and usually I get so much bashing that I feel bruised for days.

[three-eyed monkey]

Hi guys. Brilliant contributions all, well done. Blowing my mind. I'm sorry I don't have time right now to reply to anyone who addressed me directly, but I will get back soon.

Just wanted to add, I think the thread should spread in whatever direction people want. Fowlers, Night's King, ToJ, Rhoynish, Prince Garin, God's Eye conspiracy, it's all good. In fact, some of it is amazing. I truley believe the Green Men arc will be important in the wind-up of these genius novels so we might well see a lot of different strands converge. I still consider the thread an exploration, but I'm confident that, through some of the excellent insights that have been added by you people, a coherent theory will start to emerge before long. So please, keep it up.