Heresy 130

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 130, [wow…] the latest edition of the long-running thread that takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy covers a wide variety of topics, but is largely about questioning some of the popular assumptions that the Wall and the Nights Watch were created to keep the Others at bay - and that the story is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as both the lost Targaryen heir and as Azor Ahai, and in fact in the last thread we spent a lot of time looking at what was really going on in the Prince’s Pass.

At all events as the story has progressed it’s become clear that nothing is as it seems and that there may even be some truth in the old joke that it will not be Dany’s amazing dragons who save Westeros from the Others, but the Others who will help save Westeros from the dragons!

Heresy is therefore about trying to figure out what’s really going on, by looking at clues in the text itself with an open mind, and in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology such as the Cu Chulainn cycle, the Morrigan and the Mabinogion, all the way through to Narnia and the original Land of Always Winter.

Stepping into the world of Heresy might appear confusing, but we are engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. While most threads in this forum concentrate on a particular issue, we therefore range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics

A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found essays on seven major topics in heresy, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each of the essays to the relevant discussion thread, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy.

Those essays were a very successful project orchestrated by Mace Cooterian to celebrate the centennial edition, and by popular request we now intend to run a follow-up with five new topics for the five kings, starting in the next thread.

Project #1 (Joffrey) : Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised - Butcher Crow

Project #2 (Stannis) : The Wildings - Wolfmaid7

Project #3 (Renly) : Weirwoods - Snowfyre Chorus

Project #4 (Robb) : Faceless Men - Butterbumps

Project #5 (Balon) : Hammer of the Waters and The Shattering of the Arm - Eira Seren

Although these are all topics we’ve covered before, the intention as with the centennial set is to start off with a completely new essay summarising what we know, think we know and really don’t know, and then spend that particular thread discussing it in detail.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

But the point is that "the obvious one promoted by the text" is extremely problematic, not only does it raise a whole host of awkward issues [not least who was changing the diapers] but GRRM has himself said that its not to be taken literally.

And with that, its time to launch Heresy 130. The Five Kings project doesn't start until Heresy 131 so if you want to continue this discussion in the meantime please feel free.

See you all over there.

I agree it shouldn't be taken literally. Ned was not fighting with Wraiths along side him, nor was there a storm of roses, that doesn't necessarily mean that Lyanna didn't scream from the tower.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Not only that, but any theorized idea that relates to Jon Targaryen is happily swallowed up. No text required.

For the record, I actually perceive that as the chief weakness to these theories.

[addicted to snow]

From previous thread… Butterbumps

MMD's lines are basically saying that Drogo won't be whole again in this lifetime. Dany repeats it when she smothers Drogo as a conscience salve over what might look like a murder otherwise on paper (to make clear that this is a mercy kill, I mean). It's repeated again when Dany hears the tinkling of bells and for a moment thinks Drogo is there in the wilderness. It's a reminder of the price she paid, and what she got for that price.

It's saying "never in this lifetime," using apocalyptic language to elaborate on that point. It's like saying "he'll be a vegetable until hell freezes over and Christ walks the earth again." The implication being that it will take his real death to make Drogo whole.

I actually think that your conclusion, above is exactly what GRRM wants for you to believe at this point in the story… That way he can get maximum shock value when it turns out that MMD's prophesy was literal...

Seriously, Think about the way this guy writes…GRRM has been steadily preparing the reader to accept that characters can come back from the dead… & as magic continues to increase in ASOIAF, it is leading all leading up to some pretty significant, extraordinary feats…

The Khal will return… It is known...

[butterbumps!]

Carrying this over from 129:

I totally understand how both you & Dany interpret MMD's words…

I just think that you are wrong… In fact, I'm like 95% sure that you're wrong… But we'll have to wait for two more books to be released before we learn...

I think there's a way to break this down more methodically in terms of reading "something more" to it.

MMD uses apocalyptic language to hammer in the point that Drogo won't return until the world ends. But as it happens, the world might actually end. Which means that all this glib language MMD uses might actually come to fruition and that Drogo comes back to life. Are we kind of with each other to this point?

Let's look at what MMD describes:

sun rising in west, setting in the East. That's the comets path, ftr.

Seas go dry and mountains blow in the air. That's a pretty good description of the Doom/ endless summer

she's talking about the dead returning. That's what happens when AA comes again.

I think MMD is using the eschatology of a belief system either opposed or related to R'hllor/ AA to appeal to an end of days scenario that pertains to fire.

I think there's 3 ways to look at how she means this with varying implications:

1. MMD is just fancying this up using terminology from her system of beliefs, and she's just twisting the knife on Dany.

2. MMD actually subscribes to the AA/ R'hllorist theology, and believes his return is required in order to bring the dead back (meaning, she's being totally genuine). By extension, this would mean she actively wants AAR's return and endless summer, and swapping Rhaego and the eggs might have been part of her design all along (as it happens, I think only she and Mel appeal to "only death can pay for life" which might establish some kind of connection there). She probably doesn't realize the eggs quickened, otherwise she might have given better instructions on how to make the Last Kiss happen.

3. MMD subscribes to a theology opposed to R'hllorist theology, and instead of seeing this as a welcome possibility, is describing it as the end of the world, either realizing what she brought forth with the Rhaego swap, or speaking in a case of dramatic irony, thinking this will truly never happen, not realizing the dragons are returning. If she realizes the swap happened, then she's purposely with-holding that info from Dany.

The extended implication of MMD's words, based on the in-story eschatology, might have been saying something like: "when AA returns, Drogo will be as he was." Which we know would be true (more or less), in so far we the Last Kiss becomes effective once the dragons emerge.

When she says it, Drogo is alive but braindead. Subsequently, he's smothered and then burned. I think the window of time for this "return" to happen in a literal sense, was between the smothering and the burning, had he been given the Last Kiss, according to the way reanimation has been established elsewhere. I strongly think burning his body precluded his ability to return in the sense MMD is describing.

[addicted to snow]

From previous thread… Butterbumps

I have to ask-- if Drogo's soul can make it across the world to come inhabit Jon's lifeless body, why would Jon have to inhabit Hodor as his primary one? Like, if it's possible to just take over a body like this, why can't Jon just go back into his own body?

-- Drogo's Soul is presumably hanging out in Drogon, the big dragon...

-- Well, Jon would not have to inhabit Hodor as his primary body, he could use anyone who he becomes powerful enough to take… His own body will not be an option though, as literally dozens of individual foreshadowings place his body in the ice-cells for an extended period of time - a place where a Warg looses the ability to communicate with or even feel his skins (GRRM called this a very specific plot device). So Jon will have the option of living in Ghost, or any other creature that he is powerful enough to Warg. Hodor has been being prepared by GRRM for this role for a long time now...

-- Then at some point Dany & Drogon stumble across the wall & there is a blue rose growing in it… yada yada yada Khal Drogo leaves the Dragon & takes Jon's body

-- Then Bran takes the Dragon...

[addicted to snow]

There is a pretty good chance that Khal Drogo (in Jon's body) is Azor Ahi...

[butterbumps!]

There is a pretty good chance that Khal Drogo (in Jon's body) is Azor Ahi...

Or Jon is just not actually dead. I'd put better odds on the chance of my being a secret Targ warged by a lizard lion than Khal Drogo leaping into Jon's body and finishing his story as a NK/ AA hybrid.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Or Jon is just not actually dead. I'd put better odds on the chance of my being a secret Targ warged by a lizard lion than Khal Drogo leaping into Jon's body and finishing his story as a NK/ AA hybrid.

Or maybe Stannis actually did die at Winterfell, and Mel sacrifices Shireen to pull him into Jon's body (which she's healed in a manner not too disimilar from what happened to Victarion's arm). Sjonnis then kills Mel with Longclaw setting it on fire and becoming the real AAR :eek:

Wouldn't that be ironic? :cool4:

[addicted to snow]

Or Jon is just not actually dead. I'd put better odds on the chance of my being a secret Targ warged by a lizard lion than Khal Drogo leaping into Jon's body and finishing his story as a NK/ AA hybrid.

I don't know what you mean by NK/AA hybrid… NK & AA are separate characters, I'm quite sure...

[wolfmaid7]

There is a pretty good chance that Khal Drogo (in Jon's body) is Azor Ahi...

There is a better chance Jon's horse whispering skills,will control the Dragon Rheago is in and that Dragon will be the stallion that mounts the world.

ATS Drogo was never a Skinchanger,dang even they have propblems swapping body like musical cheers.Drogo isn't going to leap Drogon's body and go into Jon's body. He isn't what he was,his lifeforce quicken an egg.His conciousness is nothing more than connections of a bond,he isn't going to be in Drogon going

"Ah i see there's a free body in an ice cell somewhere down there let me go get it".

Just so Bran can Warg a Dragon? Really?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Snowfyre has pulled me kicking and screaming to at least admit the plausibility of some escape from the tower involving Aegon (though I really think this is unlikely, I won't discount it completely)...

Ah well, thanks... and now you're making me blush. ^_^ For the record - I too, find the idea quite unlikely. But as these books have a track record for plot developments that seem unlikely until they are written, I thought (and still think) it was worth some consideration. If the Aegon/Young Griff storyline is at all creditable, there must be enough space within Martin's narrative framework for the infant's rescue to occur. And if there is any substance at all to the Lemore=Ashara theories (not a given), then a plausible scenario for young Aegon's delivery to Starfall might come in handy.

So, there you have it: Snowfyre's Plausible Aegon Theory. Now if I could be bothered to polish it up and post it for the masses, we might enjoy a bit of entertainment...

But the point is that "the obvious one promoted by the text" is extremely problematic, not only does it raise a whole host of awkward issues [not least who was changing the diapers] but GRRM has himself said that its not to be taken literally.

And this was the reason I started the Plausible Aegon suggestions in the first place. All theories attempting to account for the events of Robert's Rebellion - particularly the events surrounding the Sack and the encounter at the tower of joy - are inherently problematic, simply because we are working with an incomplete set of facts. If the interpretations available to the reader boil down to: (1) Targ Polygamy and Legitimate Jon; or (2) "a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing" ... well that's not a hard decision to make. But most of us here give Martin a great deal more credit than that - and to the extent we do, we owe him the benefit of the doubt with respect to the availability of multiple plausible scenarios for resolving his tale. Your KG Ronin theory offers one such alternative. I hope my Plausible Aegon scenario provides another. :cheers:

[butterbumps!]

I don't know what you mean by NK/AA hybrid… NK & AA are separate characters, I'm quite sure...

Well, yea, they are. But you've been lobbying pretty hard for Jon to come back as the Nights King. And now you're lobbying for Drogo to become AA in Jon's body. So they're all separate people? Jon as NK and Drogo-Jon as AAR don't all share the same body? Is this Jon in Hodor's body becoming the NK, and then Drogo in Jon's body becoming AA? Is there a Part 3 to this, like where Lady Dustin inhabits Patchface to become the StMtW?

[addicted to snow]

Well, yea, they are. But you've been lobbying pretty hard for Jon to come back as the Nights King. And now you're lobbying for Drogo to become AA in Jon's body. So they're all separate people? Jon as NK and Drogo-Jon as AAR don't all share the same body? Is this Jon in Hodor's body becoming the NK, and then Drogo in Jon's body becoming AA? Is there a Part 3 to this, like where Lady Dustin inhabits Patchface to become the StMtW?

Jon in Hodor = NK

Drogo in Jon = might be AA, (though I'm not very invested in the AA part)

I would not be surprised at all if Tyrion &/or Theon finish the story with different bodies… but I have no idea how this might come to pass...

[alienarea]

I'll go with Shakespeare of course, option (2).

I made a remark in the last thread that none of you picked up, so I'll repeat:

When Ned lifted the siege on Storms End, did someone send a raven to Starfall? Telling Ned Stark and six friends hurry down to Dorne to get Lyanna back?

So the Ronin would know where to wait and that they alone would be sufficient?

Because if they didn't know and Ned would have come with the whole army it would have been pointless, wouldn't it?

Ah well, thanks... and now you're making me blush. ^_^ For the record - I too, find the idea quite unlikely. But as these books have a track record for plot developments that seem unlikely until they are written, I thought (and still think) it was worth some consideration. If the Aegon/Young Griff storyline is at all creditable, there must be enough space within Martin's narrative framework for the infant's rescue to occur. And if there is any substance at all to the Lemore=Ashara theories (not a given), then a plausible scenario for young Aegon's delivery to Starfall might come in handy.

So, there you have it: Snowfyre's Plausible Aegon Theory. Now if I could be bothered to polish it up and post it for the masses, we might enjoy a bit of entertainment...

And this was the reason I started the Plausible Aegon suggestions in the first place. All theories attempting to account for the events of Robert's Rebellion - particularly the events surrounding the Sack and the encounter at the tower of joy - are inherently problematic, simply because we are working with an incomplete set of facts. If the interpretations available to the reader boil down to: (1) Targ Polygamy and Legitimate Jon; or (2) "a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing" ... well that's not a hard decision to make. But most of us here give Martin a great deal more credit than that - and to the extent we do, we owe him the benefit of the doubt with respect to the availability of multiple plausible scenarios for resolving his tale. Your KG Ronin theory offers one such alternative. I hope my Plausible Aegon scenario provides another. :cheers:

[Hrafntýr]

I've puzzled a bit over this. The statement is actually made by Roose Bolton, not Lady Barbrey:

"...Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses... the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first." (5.32 - REEK)

But as you say, how would Roose know that Domeric could outrace Lyanna? There are a couple of possibilities I suppose, and I'd really love to hear the rest of Meera's story about the Harrenhal tourney (I believe she mentioned a horse race). We don't know the age difference between Lyanna and Domeric, but I'd assume he was a bit younger. I do find it rather intriguing that Domeric seems to have died right around the time our story began (in fact, the wiki puts his death at about the same time as Ser Waymar Royce). Domeric was Lady Barbrey's page for four years, and Barbrey also seems to know something about Lyanna and her love for riding:

"Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. (5.41 - THE TURNCLOAK)

Of course if that statement were only about Brandon, then we'd have to read the word "riding" with an eye toward double meanings (Lady Barbrey immediately moves on to the metaphor of bloody swords). But setting aside any double entendres, Lyanna clearly had the reputation of being a skilled horserider. We are reminded of this again when Arya attempts to escape the brotherhood without banners, riding off on a horse she'd stolen from Roose Bolton:

Captive. Arya took a breath to still her soul. Calm as still water. She glanced at the outlaws on their horses, and turned her horse's head. Now, quick as a snake, she thought, as she slammed her heels into the courser's flank. Right between Greenbeard and Jack-Be-Lucky she flew, and caught one glimpse of Gendry's startled face as his mare moved out of her way. And then she was in the open field, and running.

Arya dashed across brown weedy fields, through waist-high grass and piles of dry leaves that flurried and flew when her horse galloped past. There were woods to her left, she saw. I can lose them there... How big are these woods? she wondered. She had the faster horse, she knew that, she had stolen one of Roose Bolton's best from the stables at Harrenhal, but his speed was wasted here ... and suddenly she was out of them. Broad level fields stretched before her, all weeds and wild wheat, sodden and trampled. Arya kicked her horse back to a gallop. Run, she thought, run for Riverrun, run for home. Had she lost them? She took one quick look, and there was Harwin six yards back and gaining. No, she thought, no, he can't, not him, it isn't fair.

Both horses were lathered and flagging by the time he came up beside her, reached over, and grabbed her bridle. Arya was breathing hard herself then. She knew the fight was done. "You ride like a northman, m’lady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember."

Best efforts at calculating Domeric's age make him about 12 years younger than Lyanna. Actual horse races between the two of them seem unlikely.

I can't tell you how many headaches I've given myself trying to figure this out. If you take Roose's statement at face value, rather than as a counterfactual conditional (Domeric could have outraced Lyanna, had they been closer in age), Domeric's age is as nebulous as Roose's. Bolton mysteries aside, it does serve to emphasize Lyanna's horsemanship.

[lokisnow]

originally this thread was all about the Wall the Watch and a heresy, and much and more discussion swirled around Sidhe theory etc.

So I'm going to repost a thought I had last night:

The king beyond the wall

This title could perhaps have an older darker origin.

I'm thinking it has more of a Jonathan Uskglass association.

THE King Beyond the Wall.

No one may ever speak the name of the Nights King, hmm? I wonder how people might refer to him then? Perhaps as THE King Beyond the Wall?

Wildlings take the title from time to time because even they have forgotten the origin, perhaps.

Mance isn't truly the king beyond the wall anymore than he is Rattleshirt.

That title belongs to the sidhe king in the heart of winter methinks...

[Arya Havinfun]

Ah well, thanks... and now you're making me blush. ^_^ For the record - I too, find the idea quite unlikely. But as these books have a track record for plot developments that seem unlikely until they are written, I thought (and still think) it was worth some consideration. If the Aegon/Young Griff storyline is at all creditable, there must be enough space within Martin's narrative framework for the infant's rescue to occur. And if there is any substance at all to the Lemore=Ashara theories (not a given), then a plausible scenario for young Aegon's delivery to Starfall might come in handy.

So, there you have it: Snowfyre's Plausible Aegon Theory. Now if I could be bothered to polish it up and post it for the masses, we might enjoy a bit of entertainment...

And this was the reason I started the Plausible Aegon suggestions in the first place. All theories attempting to account for the events of Robert's Rebellion - particularly the events surrounding the Sack and the encounter at the tower of joy - are inherently problematic, simply because we are working with an incomplete set of facts. If the interpretations available to the reader boil down to: (1) Targ Polygamy and Legitimate Jon; or (2) "a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing" ... well that's not a hard decision to make. But most of us here give Martin a great deal more credit than that - and to the extent we do, we owe him the benefit of the doubt with respect to the availability of multiple plausible scenarios for resolving his tale. Your KG Ronin theory offers one such alternative. I hope my Plausible Aegon scenario provides another. :cheers:

Aeg-cellent! :wideeyed:

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Well, yea, they are. But you've been lobbying pretty hard for Jon to come back as the Nights King. And now you're lobbying for Drogo to become AA in Jon's body. So they're all separate people? Jon as NK and Drogo-Jon as AAR don't all share the same body? Is this Jon in Hodor's body becoming the NK, and then Drogo in Jon's body becoming AA? Is there a Part 3 to this, like where Lady Dustin inhabits Patchface to become the StMtW?

No, not Dustin... Cersei. It's already been foreshadowed.

"I am the queen. I mean to claim my rights."

But it was no good. She could not feel it, whatever Robert felt on the nights he took her.

So much penis envy in this one.

[Black Crow]

originally this thread was all about the Wall the Watch and a heresy, and much and more discussion swirled around Sidhe theory etc.

So I'm going to repost a thought I had last night:

The king beyond the wall

This title could perhaps have an older darker origin.

I'm thinking it has more of a Jonathan Uskglass association.

THE King Beyond the Wall.

No one may ever speak the name of the Nights King, hmm? I wonder how people might refer to him then? Perhaps as THE King Beyond the Wall?

Wildlings take the title from time to time because even they have forgotten the origin, perhaps.

Mance isn't truly the king beyond the wall anymore than he is Rattleshirt.

That title belongs to the sidhe king in the heart of winter methinks...

Actually the King in the North, also known as the Raven King, was John Uskglass.

But that triviality aside, its an idea worth exploring and as it happens thread 132 will be devoted to the Wildlings so if you want to work up this idea for that one we should get a good bit of discussion going on it.