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Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project


LordStoneheart

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Welcome to Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Reread Project!

This is a place for discussion and analysis of Catelyn's character arc. A place for us to look in depth at her chapters, her observations, her role, and her journey.

I have the honor of being helped by the team of theBastardofCasterlyRock, Lyanna Stark, and ShadowCat Rivers. We will hopefully be going through all of Catelyn's 25 chapters among others at a rate of once per week.

It has to be said, Catelyn is controversial. However, this is not a place to comment personal dislike and hatred, nor a place to bicker or insult. Unsupportable criticism is not appreciated. We will ask that everyone put their personal prejudices aside and look at her through fresh eyes.

Some rules to help this thread progress successfully and politely

Don't analyze future chapters

Don't pick fights with those you don't agree with

DO NOT treat this thread as a place to voice hatred of the character.

References to other POVs are encouraged to get a rounded look at the whole story

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Catelyn I, aGoT



Overview


Catelyn goes to the Godswood to seek her husband and give him news, while along the way noting the differences in their culture and religions. She finds him sitting under the heart tree and they discuss their children, the direwolves, and trouble with the Wildlings/Wall. Catelyn breaks the bad news to him that Jon Arryn has died and the King is riding north with the Lannister family in tow. To this, Catelyn is apprehensive while Ned is more excitable.



Observations


We learn a lot in this chapter about the differences between the Old Gods and the New, though notably not the New Gods’ names. Winterfell’s Godswood is ancient whereas the sept was built specifically for Catelyn. We learn a little more about Brandon the Builder, the Children of the Forest, the First Men, the Isle of Faces and the green men, Valyria, and the Stark’s words, Winter is Coming, a stand-out among the noble houses according to Catelyn.



Analysis


Lots of exposition in this chapter, from Catelyn’s introspective thoughts about the two very different religions and cultures to the history of Westeros and thoughts about the future. Catelyn’s introduction is rather religious in tone. She is initially seen as a person of faith, and she points out that her husband is not as much. There is some concern coming from Catelyn. The coming of the royal party is troubling to her, especially after hearing of the stag antler killing the direwolf. She is also seen as cautious, telling Ned to speak tactfully about the Queen even when she is miles away.



Catelyn and Religion


Right from the beginning we get a lot about Catelyn’s religious character. The first few paragraphs are all about her religious background and the current setting she is in. When she thinks about the sept and the Seven she seems more comfortable and when she thinks of the Godswood she is more nervous and in awe. I think the language is reflective of this.





Catelyn had been anointed with the seven oils and named in the rainbow of light that filled the sept of Riverrun … Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents.


It was a dark, primal place, three acres of old forest untouched for ten thousand years as the gloomy castle rose around it. … This was a place of deep silence and brooding shadows.




She is very much devout to worshipping the Seven, which Ned is okay with despite being a northerner. In this way I find their dynamic interesting, since they’ve made a successful marriage out of two different worlds. Catelyn is rather uncomfortable in the Godswood yet she knows a lot of the history behind the First Men culture. What’s also interesting for me is the way she thinks about the Old Gods.




The gods of Winterfell kept a different sort of wood.

…the gods who lived here had no names.


…his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared wit the vanished children of the forest.




She never is dismissive of the Old Gods, thinking that they actually do live in the Godswood. This balance between the two, while mostly one-sided in favor of the Seven, shows us just how much Catelyn is living in two worlds, yet with the relationship between husband and wife there is no friction about this.



Catelyn and her Southern Identity


By the end of this chapter it is clear as day that Catelyn is not of the North. She was born a southern Lady and still takes pride in this. But I don’t feel there’s any animosity or superiority coming from her perspective. Though still worshipping in a sept, Catelyn has slowly integrated into Northern life, if not in practice then in observations.





“Not for the first time, she reflected on what a strange people these northerners were.”


There is a clear disconnect between the north and the south for her, yet through the chapter she’s rather focused on the setting, specifically the heart tree. Catelyn also suggests to Ned that there are things beyond the Wall darker than Wildlings, which Ned laughs off and appears to agree with their Maester about. This is extremely interesting to me. Here we have a southern woman very much of Seven, yet she is giving some credence to the thought of “darker things” beyond the Wall, whereas Ned who is of the north and worships the Old Gods laughs and calls the talk “crib tales.”




“There are darker things beyond the Wall.” She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.

His smile was gentle. “You listen to too many of Old Nan’s stories. The Others are as gone as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has seen one.”


“Until this morning, no living man had ever seen a direwolf either,” Catelyn reminded him.


“I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully,” he said with a rueful smile.




Catelyn’s Concerns


The chapter also gives us a concerned tone, and rightfully so. She has to give him good news and bad news, Jon Arryn’s death and King Robert’s arrival. She gives both pieces of news to her husband, worrying about how he will take the first and worried about his reaction to the second. The apprehension comes from the talk of the stag killing the direwolf. Catelyn isn’t the first to make this observation, but since the chapter before was from Bran who didn’t understand the symbolism, this is when I feel we get our first definite sign that trouble is coming for the Starks. There are three concerns here that I think in hindsight are rather valid.


1. The Stag and the Direwolf – Robert comes north and, well, we know the rest.


2. Darker Things Beyond the Wall – Unknowingly, Catelyn utters a small concern about the “real” threat, something that will take a while for others to learn. While I don’t think was a major realization, it is certainly interesting to think that she was right about beyond the Wall


3. Ned and Cersei – This might just be a little dramatic irony I noticed, but in regards to the Queen, Catelyn warns Ned to guard his tongue around her. Later, it’s Ned talking to Cersei that is the key to his downfall.



Catelyn, Ned, and their children


Before breaking the news, Catelyn and Ned talk about their children and have a subtly sweet relationship. They speak of the direwolves and how the children have taken to them. Only Rickon is unsure, being so young. They are both very proud of Bran, which I think is our first indication of Catelyn’s relationship with Bran.




“I am always proud of Bran.

Catelyn is also willing to be strong for Ned’s sake because of her love for him. Their relationship we are introduced to here is quite healthy and loving.




Catelyn wished she could share his joy. But she had heard the talk in the yards; a direwolf dead in the snow, a broken antler in its throat. Dread coiled within her like a snake, but she forced herself to smile at this man she loved, this man who put no faith in signs. “I knew that would please you,”


Placement


I’d like to point out something I do think is quite significant to the story. The prologue is about the Wall and the return of the Others. Chapter one introduces us to the Starks through Bran. Chapter two is Catelyn who is not from the north nor is she blood related to the Starks. Chapter three is Daenerys who seems completely disconnected to the previous three chapters we’ve read.



Catelyn’s status as the second major POV character introduced I think speaks a lot to how GRRM has framed his story. He has stated in interviews that his aim for Catelyn was to break the mold in storytelling of the mother being off screen.





She is also a mother… Then, a tendency you can see in a lot of other fantasies is to kill the mother or to get her off the stage. She’s usually dead before the story opens… Nobody wants to hear about King Arthur’s mother and what she thought or what she was doing, so they get her off the stage and I wanted it too. And that’s Catelyn. - GRRM


I think as we progress we can use this quote to analyze why we are getting Catelyn as a major force in the story.


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Congratulations on the start of Cat Reread... May you all four have quite the success in your endeavor. :cheers:



Second, nice analysis, LordStoneheart.... Quite nice introduction for this thread...



Now, from the very beginning, we actually see the theme of this chapter: duality between North and South. With the very first line, Catelyn reinforces who she is - a Tully from Riverrun. And she is a stranger in this place. When you think that this is one of the very first chapters in the series, it came as natural that the POV that shows us Godswood is actually a foreigner's as we are foreigners to this new world on our first read. What we have out of this duality is a recurring theme in Catelyn's storyline that will end with that famous line. As we will see, Catelyn also wonderfully opposes many ideas regarding bringing two worlds closer, especially in terms of marriage, raising children, even on literary level, motifs in her story. As foreigner as she is in Winterfell's godswood, there is also a sense of belonging embodied in Ned's cleansing sword time.



This chapter is a quick introduction to what we can expect in the future. From the South comes the bad and troublesome news, which spouses look a bit differently. Ned, idealist as we will see he is, shows great excitement about Robert, pragmatic Catelyn understands the politics behind the visit. Ned is happy to see his friend, Catelyn is worried about signs. As we will see in the upcoming chapters, this peaceful co-existence of South and North embodied in Cat and Ned will soon transform into a full clash embodied in wolves and lions.



Up until the last Cat chapter, the questions risen in this chapter will repeat as the leitmotif of her storyarc. North and South colliding and coexisting in her. But, regardless of where she married, how many years she spent there, or how well acquainted she is with this culture so unknown to her, Catelyn embodies those Tully words who will get a new dimension in surrounding where she has found herself in.



Once again, all the luck, you four...

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Kudos my lord, a very solid analysis - I want to look into it deeper as the week progresses but one thing I did want to foot stomp here is Catelyn's intuition and her amazing foresight, as you pointed out, introduced as early as her first chapter. Just a quick list of things she has genuine cause for concern for and is realizing well before anyone else:

- The dark symbolism of the direwolf and the stag

- The danger in offending the queen

- The Others, which, in comparison to Tyrion's early AGoT POV thoughts concerning WWs, her own are dramatically different. They're not akin to snarks and grumpkins to Cat, but a very real ominous foreboding fills her when she thinks about them, which I think further fleshes out the extent of her deep maternal instincts.

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Thanks guys!



Good observation about us readers being foreigners to the world also, Mladen. I hadn't thought of this before. I wasn't sure what to write about for Ned's sword. Ned is clearly very comfortable there with his ritual. That reminded me of this line.




Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could see not deny that Ice had its own beauty




It could similarly echo how Catelyn never liked the godswood yet observes its natural beauty as she walks through


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I always loved how much Ned having the sept built for Cat said about Ned as a husband, and how it reflects the healthy respect they have for one another in their marriage. I think Ned could have just as easily forbidden any worship of the Seven, but decided instead to honor his wife's beliefs. Of course this speaks to the openness of the Old Gods as well, but when we start to see Cat's solemn respect for the Godswood, we know that for Cat at least, that willingness to be open goes both ways.

I do think there's a certain amount of fear/reverence for Ice on Cat's behalf, especially for what she knows her husband does with Ice. Somehow I don't think "He who passes the sentence should swing the sword" was a common part of her childhood, yet now she watches her children growing up and that sentiment very much is part of theirs.

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Great analysis! Haven't got my notes in order yet and will post more when I do, but a few things stand out immidiately, especially if we know where the story is heading.



* Ned's and Cat's relationship being one filled with not just love, but also respect. Cat doesn't just blurt out that Jon Arryn is dead, she's very conscious of trying to break it gently to Ned, even though this is the man who just beheaded someone without blinking. It shows that the underlying dynamic of their relationship is not at all of Cat being the soft, emotional one. Quite the contrary, here she is trying to shield Ned from emotional injury.



* Cat set up as a southron lady. This is something people take for granted as a static thing. However, as I think we will be able to follow throughout the story, Cat will come to adopt a more and more Stark-ish stance as the chapters progress. This is part of her character development and something worth noting as we go: when does she embrace those "foreign northern ways" and make them her own? Is it gradual, or is there some point in the story which tips her over into "Winter is coming" territory? Something to consider for the future. :)



I have to say, my first spontaneus thought when reading Cat I was how filled of atmosphere and looming dread it was. Really neat setup for the rest of AGOT.


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* Cat set up as a southron lady. This is something people take for granted as a static thing. However, as I think we will be able to follow throughout the story, Cat will come to adopt a more and more Stark-ish stance as the chapters progress. This is part of her character development and something worth noting as we go: when does she embrace those "foreign northern ways" and make them her own? Is it gradual, or is there some point in the story which tips her over into "Winter is coming" territory? Something to consider for the future. :)

I kinda believe that the process of adoption has already started, and we see it evolve throughout the story. I actually think that, as this chapter shows us, that it's all about Tully words. First comes family. And Cat's family is the North, her children are Northerners, her husband is Northerner. In many ways, her Northern identity is about her family (we'll see in the next chapter where I aim). Catelyn's adoption of North comes through Ned and her children, as the ultimate and most important thing for her. So, in a way, we can tell that she is adopting North through her Southern identity too. Also, as usual, and especially with Stark women, Martin doesn't do dramatic changes when he turn the table with them, he does it in subtle way, gradually until you realize that the where you started certainly isn't the place where you ended (we have seen it with both Sansa and Arya). Just as there is no pinpoint in Sansa's "pawn to player" story or Arya's "becoming no one" there is no precise moment where we can say Catelyn adopted Northern culture.

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Thanks for starting on this...her POV was one of the my favorites in AGOT and later. Her influence also comes up in the POV's of all the Stark children and lives on through them. Since as far as we know, her sons all stayed in the North except for Robb, it's through Sansa's POV and to a lesser extent Arya's that we see her influence.



I don't want to get too far ahead since we're still on the beginning, but I'm still seeing her influence on other characters in the books much later on.


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Great point. I genuinely think her influence will easily stretch well to the end of aDoS. Likewise, I think she embodies that fieriness we see in Arya, and then turns around and shows us that "lady" side we find so often in Sansa. But more to come on that later...

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Excellent! I love re-read projects.






Catelyn I, aGoT






Really nice analysis!



For me the most important part of this chapter is setting up Ned and Cat's marriage, which is perhaps one of the only truly solid and functional marriages in the series. There is a love and understanding between them that you don't see with others, like Robert and Cersei who contrast Ned and Cat quite a bit. They are fond of each other in a way that allows them to tease each other "I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully," he[Ned] said with a rueful smile. When I first read aGoT many years ago, I thought Cat and Ned had your typical fantasy marriage--kids, a lord and his lady, powerful, loving, sweet. It seemed like other things I've read before. What I love is that you later peel back many layers of Cat and Ned's relationship (Brandon, Lyanna, the Rebellion) and you realize that in Westeros their marriage is atypical.



I love that Ned built a small sept for Cat so she could have a piece of her own heritage with her; Ned also encourages Cat to go to Lysa and fill her halls with the laughter of children to ease Lysa's troubles. Once again, it shows a fondness that goes beyond just marital duty and honor. There is real love here.



Looking forward to more!


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Excellent! I love re-read projects.

Really nice analysis!

For me the most important part of this chapter is setting up Ned and Cat's marriage, which is perhaps one of the only truly solid and functional marriages in the series. There is a love and understanding between them that you don't see with others, like Robert and Cersei who contrast Ned and Cat quite a bit. They are fond of each other in a way that allows them to tease each other "I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully," he[Ned] said with a rueful smile. When I first read aGoT many years ago, I thought Cat and Ned had your typical fantasy marriage--kids, a lord and his lady, powerful, loving, sweet. It seemed like other things I've read before. What I love is that you later peel back many layers of Cat and Ned's relationship (Brandon, Lyanna, the Rebellion) and you realize that in Westeros their marriage is atypical.

I love that Ned built a small sept for Cat so she could have a piece of her own heritage with her; Ned also encourages Cat to go to Lysa and fill her halls with the laughter of children to ease Lysa's troubles. Once again, it shows a fondness that goes beyond just marital duty and honor. There is real love here.

Looking forward to more!

So true, and for the most part, married life in Westeros looks so bad it's a miracle any sane person would even consider it. Add in RW and PW and single life looks pretty good.

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Ned also encourages Cat to go to Lysa and fill her halls with the laughter of children to ease Lysa's troubles. Once again, it shows a fondness that goes beyond just marital duty and honor. There is real love here.

Such a warm and tender line. Like you said, Ned's concern is very real; in a time of great sadness for him he still actively shows worry for Cat and her family, while likewise Cat approaches delivering the news with a sensitivity for Ned given his closeness to Jon Arryn that puts her own feelings on the back burner.

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Finally!



I will try my best to overcome my extreme laziness and participate as much as possible. ;)



Anyway, lots of infodumping about world building in this chapter as expected for one so early in the book, but also a lot of interesting stuff about Cat and her marriage. Most of which was covered already. On my last reread the fact that Ned urged Cat to go like 2000 miles away and take the children with her so they could ease Lysa's grief and Cat was ready to go if not for the king's visit really highlights how kind-hearted and family-oriented both of them are. Makes Lysa's betrayal seems even worse.


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This is great! I always thought that Catelyn is one of the most fascinating characters :) Great analysis, LordStoneheart.



This chapter is very much an introduction to both Catelyn and Ned, I think. We get infodumps about the RR, why Jon Arryn is so important to Ned and indirectly, due to his absolute joy at hearing that Robert will come, we learn about the relationship between Ned and Robert.



I , too, noticed the religious theme in the chapter. It opens with Catelyn stating that she doesn't like this godswood. I think that interesting because WF's godswood seems to still serve it's true purpose, being a place of worship and praying and having a connection to the gods, while the godswood she prefers is more of a garden, a place that is nice, but not sacred.



Catelyn has a deep connection with the Seven. I found this sentence quite interesting




She was of the Faith, like her father and grandfather and his father before him.



Like Jon (Snow) refers to the gods as his father's gods, there seems to be a familiar and cultural connection between Catelyn and the Seven, too.



She states that she is not comfortable in the godswood, and this is reflected in how she describes what she sees:




The weirwood's bark was white as bone, it's leaves dark red, ike a thousand bloodstained hands.



It is a quite scary image, heavily associated with death. Also interesting, the face carved into the weirwood is described as long and melancholy. Stark faces (Arya, Jon, Ned) are described as long. Could be a coincidence, I don't know.



The relationship between Catelyn and Ned is established as close and loving, but she calls him milord. Just stood out for me.





... this man who put no faith in signs.



Interestingly, Ned, the Northerner, seems to be the one who needs prove to believe things, while Catelyn is shown to be more open to the magical.


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Great OP, Lord Stoneheart, and a good idea for a re-read. :thumbsup:



In this chapter, I love how the relationship between Catelyn and Ned is shown to be built on love, respect and trust, while at the same time we learn that they are opposites in many ways.




“There are darker things beyond the Wall.” She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.


His smile was gentle. “You listen to too many of Old Nan’s stories. The Others are as gone as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has seen one.”


“Until this morning, no living man had ever seen a direwolf either,” Catelyn reminded him.


“I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully,” he said with a rueful smile.






Ned tells Catelyn she listens to Old Nan's tales too often. (This is quite similar to what Ned told Bran in the previous chapter.) It may actually be true – Old Nan tells stories to Catelyn's children and it is likely that Catelyn is often there, too, and hears the stories. What is interesting is that Catelyn does not dismiss these stories as children's stuff, while Ned does (or at least that is what he says). Catelyn also believes in signs (the direwolf and the stag), and we know she is not wrong, but Ned is of a more rational persuasion.



I don't see this difference along the northern – southern axis, but rather as the difference between the male and the female approach ("children's stories" are associated with women). Ned believes in solid, empirical facts (which sets him up as a "detective" later in the story), and he quotes Maester Luwin as authority (versus Old Nan), while Catelyn is inclined to believe in ancient stories and myths, the product of collective wisdom (rather than individual learning), which Ygritte calls "a bard's truth". I think the duality of myths / legends / songs / prophecies versus empirical facts is a constant theme in the novel, and it is established in the first chapters (not only in this one but in the previous one as well), but here it is depicted as part of the male / female angles. I look forward to seeing whether this empirical / spiritual approach to reality comes up again with Catelyn and Ned in later chapters.





This is great! I always thought that Catelyn is one of the most fascinating characters :) Great analysis, LordStoneheart.



This chapter is very much an introduction to both Catelyn and Ned, I think. We get infodumps about the RR, why Jon Arryn is so important to Ned and indirectly, due to his absolute joy at hearing that Robert will come, we learn about the relationship between Ned and Robert.



I , too, noticed the religious theme in the chapter. It opens with Catelyn stating that she doesn't like this godswood. I think that interesting because WF's godswood seems to still serve it's true purpose, being a place of worship and praying and having a connection to the gods, while the godswood she prefers is more of a garden, a place that is nice, but not sacred.



Catelyn has a deep connection with the Seven. I found this sentence quite interesting


Like Jon (Snow) refers to the gods as his father's gods, there seems to be a familiar and cultural connection between Catelyn and the Seven, too.



She states that she is not comfortable in the godswood, and this is reflected in how she describes what she sees:


It is a quite scary image, heavily associated with death. Also interesting, the face carved into the weirwood is described as long and melancholy. Stark faces (Arya, Jon, Ned) are described as long. Could be a coincidence, I don't know.



The relationship between Catelyn and Ned is established as close and loving, but she calls him milord. Just stood out for me.



Interestingly, Ned, the Northerner, seems to be the one who needs prove to believe things, while Catelyn is shown to be more open to the magical.







Yes, faith seems to be a link between individuals and their ancestors - apparently even married women can keep their fathers' faith if it is different from their husbands' - though it may well depend on how tolerant the husband is.



Excellent observation about the weirwood having a Stark-face. I don't think it is a coincidence.



The "bloodstained hands" : This is the place where Ned goes every time after taking a man's life and Cat finds him there cleaning his sword. The bloodstained hands image is a reference to the Stark system of justice, to the principle that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Bloodstained hands represent responsibility.



I think the godswood is associated with both life and death, as blood also means both life and death.


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