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Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project


LordStoneheart

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Shadows of the past & Jon Snow

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What a beautifully written and quite amazing analysis. I truly enjoyed reading this, ShadowCat...

I do believe that the Cat's relationship was never that simple as it may appear on the first sight. In the first Cat's POV chapter, Catelyn is depicted as loving wife and mother, then we had Jon's POV that made us sympathize with him, since the introduction makes him as some version of Cinderella. So, as much as kind Catelyn is, Jon's first couple of POV chapters gives quite the new dimension to Catelyn - one that is usually associated to Evil Queen, Lady Tremaine etc... Catelyn becomes the Evil Stepmother. Besides brilliance in pointing how perspective of one person changes with the point of view GRRM showed in his writing very early, it also shows the delicate layering of the characters. And Catelyn, from the loving mother and wife, a family woman gets another dimension - of woman full of doubts, insecurities and worries. Basically, GRRM showed us that no mother is just a mother, and that woman is not solely determined by her children. There is a nice power in deconstructing the positive imagery of motherhood, as we will see, much later, the deconstruction of negative imagery of wicked stepmother. The coexistence of these two aspects and two tropes in the fantasy needed intricate web of the motivation, emotional turbulence and personal issues in one person. And I think you wonderfully pointed that out ShadowCat...

As usual in ASOIAF, there is not one reason, one motif to a particular emotion or stance. As Shadowcat pointed out, there are quite numerous reasons for disliking Jon, from the inheritance issues and wounded pride to jealousy. I like the fact how is pointed that even Catelyn's emotional side took the best of her rationale. Her cold reasoning regarding her emotions is utterly flawed, since she seems not to understand to what extent are her emotions for Ned powerful. In a way, I think (and ShadowCat nailed it) Cat is lying to herself when she says she would accept bastards that are fat from sight in order to rationalize that green-eye monster in her. She wants to be OK with the social norm of Lord having the bastard, but she shows no sign of being OK with that. Not because it's wrong in terms of broken vows or even social standards, but because of Ned. Catelyn shows that she is not fine with many constrictions of the role and obligations women had to endure in patriarchal society (there are quite few cases in the future where she breaks or fights the norms). So, beside the pride which must have been quite hurtful in the first years when she didn't know Ned, the much worse was the knowing there was some other woman and some possible feelings Ned felt. Cat's feelings towards her beloved ones are the crux of her breaking many norms and being quite OK with that.

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I think it's clear, as you noted, that Cat's insecurities are not about whether Ned loves her at all or that he's never moved on... But the thing is, that story did not end 'normally'. It was rather cut off by a set of events that included Cat and Ned's marriage out of duty, and I think that Cat might feel that it's burried, but not dead (I don't know if it makes sense, but I can't express it any better).

Thats a perfect way of putting it! And the thing is, its true. Ned had to bury Lyanna's secret within him and this resulted in some kind of melancholic/depressive/broody aspect of his personailty that Cat could have easily interpreted as him never having truly gotten over his feelings for Jon's mother.

I think you're correct in your second point too. Many readers interpret Ned and Catelyn's relationship as one of spousal respect and affection that grows over the years as their family grew, but I, like you, interpreted it a different way. I think Catelyn's thoughts, displayed in this chapter and many more, reflect passionate romantic love as as well as a companionship love. The latter they certainly had, but the former is what I believe makes their relationship atypical, considering a relationship of their beggining would never be expected to fall in this category. When they think of eachother its more often physically, as lovers, more often then not, thinking of holding the other in their arms and sleeping together, having another child together. Its sweet really, but it is also why Catelyn is so affected by Jon's mother. If their marriage had solely been one of respect and affection as the parent's of the other's children, then I really doubt that she would have cared of this point.

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^Good points all around. I also wanted to add while I was thinking of it that for Cat Jon's presence is really an afront to all three aspects of Family, Duty, Honor. Ironically, Ned keeps Jon's secret safe for family (Lyanna) and in keeping her secret he also honors his word - but duty is the one really open to interpretation here. He's not keeping his duty to Robert by hiding Jon's lineage, which we know he bears a lot of guilt for. For Cat Ned's fathering a bastard was outside his "duty" as well as potentially damaging to his family and clearly dishonorable. Just a few passing thoughts...

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Thats a perfect way of putting it! And the thing is, its true. Ned had to bury Lyanna's secret within him and this resulted in some kind of melancholic/depressive/broody aspect of his personailty that Cat could have easily interpreted as him never having truly gotten over his feelings for Jon's mother.

I think you're correct in your second point too. Many readers interpret Ned and Catelyn's relationship as one of spousal respect and affection that grows over the years as their family grew, but I, like you, interpreted it a different way. I think Catelyn's thoughts, displayed in this chapter and many more, reflect passionate romantic love as as well as a companionship love. The latter they certainly had, but the former is what I believe makes their relationship atypical, considering a relationship of their beggining would never be expected to fall in this category. When they think of eachother its more often physically, as lovers, more often then not, thinking of holding the other in their arms and sleeping together, having another child together. Its sweet really, but it is also why Catelyn is so affected by Jon's mother. If their marriage had solely been one of respect and affection as the parent's of the other's children, then I really doubt that she would have cared of this point.

These are all excellent, nuanced points about the nature of Ned's and Cat's relationship and how this relates to her treatment of Jon. I just wanted to reiterate a few points mentioned above about the Ned-Cat-Jon dynamic if only to add a further perspective.

A lot of this tense situation is framed by Ned doing an ethically good thing in protecting and raising his sister's son as his own, but in order to do so he has to lie, deceive his new wife -- be a "bad" husband on some level. He can never divulge the secret of Jon's mother to Cat but this creates an awkward and difficult home situation. Even though Cat, in theory, has little problem with a lord's infidelity and making arrangements for his bastard children, what is galling here is that Ned makes the atypical choice to raise his bastard among his true born children:

He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. (Cat II)

So not only are Cat and Jon forced to live together, the most hurtful -- and this goes along with your points about Cat's insecurities -- is Ned's refusal to explain his reasons to her (as his beloved wife) for Jon's ubiquitous presence, even though his silence is for all the right reasons. Even more importantly, Ned appears to make all of the parental decisions regarding Jon, thereby muting Cat as ever being any kind of mother figure to him for she has no say in raising him. Despite this, she finds it in herself to fall in love with Ned. Unfortunately, I think Cat redirects her insecurities and anger (about Jon's presence and Ned's behavior) from Ned on to Jon.

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Julia H.,



Good points on Robert's offer being a double-edged sword. But I still think it is natural that they would downplay the danger. They have (or so they think...) three "assets" that give a sense of relative security:


1. Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey.


Betrothal and marriage bonds are viewed very very seriously in ASOIAF. Remember how appalled Kevan Lannister is by Joffrey's treatment to Sansa:


“Sire,” Ser Kevan said, in a shocked voice, “the lady is now your aunt by marriage.”


As bad an opinion as they have for the Lannisters, I suppose they could never contemplate the extent of it all. They would expect them to honour the in-law ties that this marriage would create.


2. Lysa's letter.


They have been warned. They are supposedly aware of the danger so they won't fall victims so easily. We know of course that this is exactly what happened, as they had no idea of how the Game has evolved...


3. Robert.


You are right. Ned knows very well that when it comes to Jon, Robert would gladly harm his... But no doubt he considers this an exception.



All in all, they are utterly unprepared for what awaits them.


In hindsight, knowing who and why was behind Lysa's letter, we can see the vast gap between the Players and the Starks. The letter, its package and the way is was delivered are "professional" work while the Starks are not even amateur level...





I've been also wondering what Catelyn's original idea was regarding the move to King's Landing. If she had gone with Ned, then all her children with the probable exception of Robb would have gone with them. Would she have been content to leave Jon in Winterfell then, and so out of her sight? I suspect not, because of the inheritance issue.





I don't think this is an issue. Whatever danger Jon presents, it's already done when Ned acknowledged him and it can not be undone. Staying in Winterfell alone is a whole different matter since it may be viewed as indirectly appointing him "the Stark in Winterfell" but with Robb there I don't see it adds anything.


On the contrary, sending him to a bannerman as a ward could potentially be more risky; Jon does not have any family ties except for the Starks but he might create such with his guardian's family who may later be motivated to push his claim: when discussing the problem of Hornwood inheritance and Bran suggests late lord Hornwood's bastard, ser Rodrick notably points that it "would please the Glovers", the House that the boy has been a ward...


Still, I suppose that this has been the solution Catelyn has been pushing for so I would infer that her number one priority is getting him out of sight, indeed. She wouldn't mind letting him behind at Winterfell with Robb if she was to accompany Ned to KL.







...


I do believe that the Cat's relationship was never that simple as it may appear on the first sight. In the first Cat's POV chapter, Catelyn is depicted as loving wife and mother, then we had Jon's POV that made us sympathize with him, since the introduction makes him as some version of Cinderella. So, as much as kind Catelyn is, Jon's first couple of POV chapters gives quite the new dimension to Catelyn - one that is usually associated to Evil Queen, Lady Tremaine etc... Catelyn becomes the Evil Stepmother. Besides brilliance in pointing how perspective of one person changes with the point of view GRRM showed in his writing very early, it also shows the delicate layering of the characters. And Catelyn, from the loving mother and wife, a family woman gets another dimension - of woman full of doubts, insecurities and worries. Basically, GRRM showed us that no mother is just a mother, and that woman is not solely determined by her children. There is a nice power in deconstructing the positive imagery of motherhood, as we will see, much later, the deconstruction of negative imagery of wicked stepmother.


...





Thank you so much for the kind words... :blushing:


What is so great about Catelyn is that she is, above all, a human being with a distinct personality. In her, the dichotomy "motherly mother"/"evil stepmother" is not just subverted, it is shot down. Motherhood is a defining step in a woman's life, but it does not take away her individuality. She does not cease to be a person with all her virtues and all her flaws because she becomes a mother...


The Cinderella reference you made is very interesting. Early on, the writing forces the reader to review this trope both in Jon's story (Donal Noye speach) as well as in Catelyn's. And, for a good measure, we later get a true Cinderella story in Falia Flowers, the Grimm version; only the focus is on "Aschenputtel's" revenge, directing our sympathies to the evil stepmother and sisters...







So not only are Cat and Jon forced to live together, the most hurtful -- and this goes along with your points about Cat's insecurities -- is Ned's refusal to explain his reasons to her (as his beloved wife) for Jon's ubiquitous presence, even though his silence is for all the right reasons. Even more importantly, Ned appears to make all of the parental decisions regarding Jon, thereby muting Cat as ever being any kind of mother figure to him for she has no say in raising him. Despite this, she finds it in herself to fall in love with Ned. Unfortunately, I think Cat redirects her insecurities and anger (about Jon's presence and Ned's behavior) from Ned on to Jon.





This is a common theme of the story: a decision made for a really good cause can be deeply hurtful to those it is was made to protect.


Living together has been very hurtful for both Cat and Jon and we shouldn't downplay either characters' suffering. I also believe that the way it affected the rest of the family is quite important too. At the least, it would create awkward situations for all of them.


But I don't agree that Cat could or should be given a parental role for Jon. It already hurts as it is; forcing this duty on her would be even worse, as she would have to interact with him all the time when she can barely abide his presence. I don't think that pushing her into the mother role would soften her feelings towards him. I think it would be too hard for both Cat and Jon.

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So not only are Cat and Jon forced to live together, the most hurtful -- and this goes along with your points about Cat's insecurities -- is Ned's refusal to explain his reasons to her (as his beloved wife) for Jon's ubiquitous presence, even though his silence is for all the right reasons. Even more importantly, Ned appears to make all of the parental decisions regarding Jon, thereby muting Cat as ever being any kind of mother figure to him for she has no say in raising him. Despite this, she finds it in herself to fall in love with Ned. Unfortunately, I think Cat redirects her insecurities and anger (about Jon's presence and Ned's behavior) from Ned on to Jon.

I disagree with some of this. I don't think Cat would ever want to be a parental figure to Jon. This isn't a case of "I could love him if only Ned would let me." In Bran's final (?) POV in Dance we see Ned praying at the heart tree, begging that Jon and Robb grow up as brothers and that Cat might forgive him. Ned, apparently, wanted Jon to be apart of his family and his plea to Cat in our chapter at present was he's only a boy. Cat doesn't understand the need for Ned's secrecy and that's not fair to her, though I think we can say it's very hard on Ned as well, but if Cat wanted to care for Jon as a mother or even kindly aunt she would have.

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Julia H.,

Good points on Robert's offer being a double-edged sword. But I still think it is natural that they would downplay the danger. They have (or so they think...) three "assets" that give a sense of relative security:

1. Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey.

Betrothal and marriage bonds are viewed very very seriously in ASOIAF. Remember how appalled Kevan Lannister is by Joffrey's treatment to Sansa:

“Sire,” Ser Kevan said, in a shocked voice, “the lady is now your aunt by marriage.”

As bad an opinion as they have for the Lannisters, I suppose they could never contemplate the extent of it all. They would expect them to honour the in-law ties that this marriage would create.

2. Lysa's letter.

They have been warned. They are supposedly aware of the danger so they won't fall victims so easily. We know of course that this is exactly what happened, as they had no idea of how the Game has evolved...

3. Robert.

You are right. Ned knows very well that when it comes to Jon, Robert would gladly harm his... But no doubt he considers this an exception.

All in all, they are utterly unprepared for what awaits them.

In hindsight, knowing who and why was behind Lysa's letter, we can see the vast gap between the Players and the Starks. The letter, its package and the way is was delivered are "professional" work while the Starks are not even amateur level...

I don't think this is an issue. Whatever danger Jon presents, it's already done when Ned acknowledged him and it can not be undone. Staying in Winterfell alone is a whole different matter since it may be viewed as indirectly appointing him "the Stark in Winterfell" but with Robb there I don't see it adds anything.

On the contrary, sending him to a bannerman as a ward could potentially be more risky; Jon does not have any family ties except for the Starks but he might create such with his guardian's family who may later be motivated to push his claim: when discussing the problem of Hornwood inheritance and Bran suggests late lord Hornwood's bastard, ser Rodrick notably points that it "would please the Glovers", the House that the boy has been a ward...

Still, I suppose that this has been the solution Catelyn has been pushing for so I would infer that her number one priority is getting him out of sight, indeed. She wouldn't mind letting him behind at Winterfell with Robb if she was to accompany Ned to KL.

You are right that the marriage offer seems to be their "insurance" against trouble in KL, but it is Catelyn who believes that in the first place. Ned seems to be having second thoughts because of Joffrey. Of course, it would probably be impossible to refuse such an offer. If Ned does not want Sansa to marry Joffrey, his best hope is that Robert might forget the idea over time if the engagement is not made official.

Yes, they have been warned... and they have no idea how dangerous it may be to investigate a murder case.

As for Robert, Catelyn is afraid that Robert might hurt them if they refused the offer. Ned thinks they would be safe in the North, and that Robert would not be angry for long.

I guess they all know that as long as Jon is a bastard, his claim is the last (at least Jon seems to learn that early on). Bastards can be legitimized, but even then Robb is the first-born son. However, if Robb died or disgraced himself, Jon might gain a lot by being legitimized. I don't know how far Catelyn thinks Jon might be willing to go one day to steal her children's birthright, that is why I wondered if she would have been content to leave the two of them behind in Winterfell. But, yes, she might have agreed to it, since Jon would have been out of her sight at least. Her fears regarding Jon need not be totally rational.

I disagree with some of this. I don't think Cat would ever want to be a parental figure to Jon. This isn't a case of "I could love him if only Ned would let me." In Bran's final (?) POV in Dance we see Ned praying at the heart tree, begging that Jon and Robb grow up as brothers and that Cat might forgive him. Ned, apparently, wanted Jon to be apart of his family and his plea to Cat in our chapter at present was he's only a boy. Cat doesn't understand the need for Ned's secrecy and that's not fair to her, though I think we can say it's very hard on Ned as well, but if Cat wanted to care for Jon as a mother or even kindly aunt she would have.

:agree: Catelyn has tried to convince Ne to send Jon away before. She does not want to be a mother figure to Jon, and she cannot really be expected to want to be. Ned probably understands it, and that is why he prays that Catelyn could forgive him. He knows that she is hurt, but he cannot help it.

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But I don't agree that Cat could or should be given a parental role for Jon. It already hurts as it is; forcing this duty on her would be even worse, as she would have to interact with him all the time when she can barely abide his presence. I don't think that pushing her into the mother role would soften her feelings towards him. I think it would be too hard for both Cat and Jon.

I disagree with some of this. I don't think Cat would ever want to be a parental figure to Jon. This isn't a case of "I could love him if only Ned would let me." In Bran's final (?) POV in Dance we see Ned praying at the heart tree, begging that Jon and Robb grow up as brothers and that Cat might forgive him. Ned, apparently, wanted Jon to be apart of his family and his plea to Cat in our chapter at present was he's only a boy. Cat doesn't understand the need for Ned's secrecy and that's not fair to her, though I think we can say it's very hard on Ned as well, but if Cat wanted to care for Jon as a mother or even kindly aunt she would have.

I'm not arguing that had Cat been allowed to be a mother-figure or a more modern notion of a stepparent to Jon, that all would be copacetic in the Stark household. I agree that the mother-like notion is faulty; and I see no reason for Cat to be a stepmother to Jon or that she must love him -- there is no moral obligation for her to do so in the context of Westeros. What is problematic is that she loves Ned, who ostensibly wronged her (again, for the right reasons), but transfers her anger and shame from Ned to Jon's presence at Winterfell.

My point about Ned's usurpation of any parental-type "rights" or final say in Jon's upbringing reinforces Cat's shame, anger, and feelings of powerlessness in running her household. Of course Ned's taking on all decisions pertaining to Jon, however, is not a reaction to Cat's feelings, but is part and parcel of taking Jon on in the first place. Yet by having the only say irt Jon, withholding from Cat info about Jon's mother, Ned is telling Cat and society that she will never be a parent to Jon, which also solidifies Jon's bastard status. Cat apparently thinks this is a failing on her part because "she never found it in her to love Jon" indicating that she considered being a mother figure to Jon but simply could not do it.

Relatedly, Cat empathizes with Jon being motherless in aCoK.

Again I don't think a solution was for Cat to be a mother-figure or have her assume our concept of a stepparent, but perhaps the negativity of the Ned-Cat-Jon dynamic would be diluted somewhat. Then again, because Ned can never fully explain the situation to Cat, the only void (Jon) that Cat feels between her and the man she loves was unavoidable, there are no work-arounds here.

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My point about Ned's usurpation of any parental-type "rights" or final say in Jon's upbringing reinforces Cat's shame, anger, and feelings of powerlessness in running her household. Of course Ned's taking on all decisions pertaining to Jon, however, is not a reaction to Cat's feelings, but is part and parcel of taking Jon on in the first place. Yet by having the only say irt Jon, withholding from Cat info about Jon's mother, Ned is telling Cat and society that she will never be a parent to Jon, which also solidifies Jon's bastard status. Cat apparently thinks this is a failing on her part because "she never found it in her to love Jon" indicating that she considered being a mother figure to Jon but simply could not do it.

I don't know that Ned usurped Cat of any sort of parental-type "rights." When they discuss Ned going south in this chapter, and Jon Snow comes up in conversation via Maester Luwin, Ned says "He [Jon] and Rober are close..I had hoped..."when Cat, without any prompting, says "Jon must go." Cat is actually telling Ned what must be done with Jon; she's reinforcing Jon's own decision not abiding by what Ned wants. Ned wants something utterly different, he wants Jon to stay at WF with Robb and Cat. I actually think Ned would have accepted any help Cat could offer in regards to Jon over the years, but Cat simply wanted nothing to do with the boy.

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I don't know that Ned usurped Cat of any sort of parental-type "rights." When they discuss Ned going south in this chapter, and Jon Snow comes up in conversation via Maester Luwin, Ned says "He [Jon] and Rober are close..I had hoped..."when Cat, without any prompting, says "Jon must go." Cat is actually telling Ned what must be done with Jon; she's reinforcing Jon's own decision not abiding by what Ned wants. Ned wants something utterly different, he wants Jon to stay at WF with Robb and Cat. I actually think Ned would have accepted any help Cat could offer in regards to Jon over the years, but Cat simply wanted nothing to do with the boy.

Do you believe that Cat had some obligation to keep Jon around? Yes, Cat ultimately wanted nothing to do with Jon (yet note again my references to her guilt over this and how her feelings are reinforced by Ned), but Ned has the final say in ALL matters regarding Jon, including the decision to send him to the Wall. True that Cat refuses to let Jon remain at Winterfell in Ned's absence, but she's not his stepmother, she has no moral obligation to keep him around. Ned could take Jon to court but decides against it. I suspect part of what solidifies his decision is Ned's fear of exposing Jon, but it's Ned, not Cat, who appeals to the stigmatization of bastards at court for his reason against it. Arguably, Ned does just as much by his silence (again for good reason) and reinforces Jon's bastard status (see aslo Ned ruling in favor of Jon seated separately from his siblings at the Winterfell feast) as much as Cat does. Doing this, and I stress, for the right reasons unknown to Cat, Ned alone decides a path for Jon.

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Do you believe that Cat had some obligation to keep Jon around? Yes, Cat ultimately wanted nothing to do with Jon (yet note again my references to her guilt over this and how her feelings are reinforced by Ned), but Ned has the final say in ALL matters regarding Jon, including the decision to send him to the Wall. True that Cat refuses to let Jon remain at Winterfell in Ned's absence, but she's not his stepmother, she has no moral obligation to keep him around. Ned could take Jon to court but decides against it. I suspect part of what solidifies his decision is Ned's fear of exposing Jon, but it's Ned, not Cat, who appeals to the stigmatization of bastards at court for his reason against it. Arguably, Ned does just as much by his silence (again for good reason) and reinforces Jon's bastard status (see aslo Ned ruling in favor of Jon seated separately from his siblings at the Winterfell feast) as much as Cat does. Doing this, and I stress, for the right reasons unknown to Cat, Ned alone decides a path for Jon.

Cat's words are Family, Duty, Honor. Ned told her once, long ago, "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know." In other words, Jon is family. Jon is being raised alongside Cat's children; he has a close bond with several of them. In fact, apart from Cat (and to a lesser extent Sansa) the others think of Jon as if he really were just another Stark family member. Does she have a moral obligation to keep Jon around? Well obligation to whom? If it's to Ned and her own children, the yes, she might have an obligation to keep Jon around (again, her words are Family, Duty, Honor). Jon is just a boy and none of this is his fault, Cat knows how close Jon is to her own children, she knows that Ned loves him. If you mean an obligation to herself, then no she is not obligated to keep Jon around. The fact that she doesn't want Jon to stick around is a reflection of her own feelings toward Jon, not because it's morally "better."

Though, the idea of obligation is kind of a moot point because Jon wants to go to the Wall so Cat shouldn't stand in his way.

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Do you believe that Cat had some obligation to keep Jon around? Yes, Cat ultimately wanted nothing to do with Jon (yet note again my references to her guilt over this and how her feelings are reinforced by Ned), but Ned has the final say in ALL matters regarding Jon, including the decision to send him to the Wall. True that Cat refuses to let Jon remain at Winterfell in Ned's absence, but she's not his stepmother, she has no moral obligation to keep him around. Ned could take Jon to court but decides against it. I suspect part of what solidifies his decision is Ned's fear of exposing Jon, but it's Ned, not Cat, who appeals to the stigmatization of bastards at court for his reason against it. Arguably, Ned does just as much by his silence (again for good reason) and reinforces Jon's bastard status (see aslo Ned ruling in favor of Jon seated separately from his siblings at the Winterfell feast) as much as Cat does. Doing this, and I stress, for the right reasons unknown to Cat, Ned alone decides a path for Jon.

I don't want to stray too far off topic, but could Ned take Jon to court? I mean servants are probably not checked for legitimacy, so Jon could probably serve under Jory, but could Ned take Jon to court as his son? Or would he be obliged to send Jon to stay with some armourer in the city if he took him along to KL?

"There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name ... you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

"No place for him" and "shunned" seem a bit ambiguous to me. I know that "no place for him" could be metaphorical, but I'm still wondering - does that mean that Jon could only go there as practically a household servant or "only" that he (as Ned's son) would be despised by the high-born people?

Ned reinforcing Jon's bastard status ... I don't think Ned could pretend that Jon is not a bastard. Well.. careful now, in fact Ned may only be pretending that Jon is a bastard, :) but once he is pretending that, he must go through with it. Jon cannot be raised with the same expectations as his brothers because that would be a lie. It would also be a lie if Ned tried to pretend that Catelyn is Jon's mother in some strange way (it would be more of a lie than saying that Ned is Jon's father, because he "adopted" him, while Cat did not). Jon's bastard status does not really need reinforcing, it is absolute (at least until he is legitimized by a king). I think the path Ned decided for Jon was the path of life instead of death, and everything else followed from this. I don't think Ned could have done much better regarding Jon in the given circumstances. Once Jon got the name Snow, he was a bastard every day of his life. He was castle-bred, a lord's acknowledged son, brought up with his legitimate siblings, loved and taken care of, but he was still a bastard, and Ned could not have given him more. He would also be a bastard if Cat sincerely loved him, and he would still have to find his "bastard's honour" in life. Cat obviously helped to bring that home to him, early on.

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I don't want to stray too far off topic, but could Ned take Jon to court? I mean servants are probably not checked for legitimacy, so Jon could probably serve under Jory, but could Ned take Jon to court as his son? Or would he be obliged to send Jon to stay with some armourer in the city if he took him along to KL?

In the eyes of Westeros, yes I think Ned could have taken Jon to court. Everyone in power already knows that Ned Stark had a bastard son he is raising in WF. And it's not as if bastards have never in the history of Westeros gone to court: Bloodraven springs to mind in the past, and Aurene Rivers in the present. Ned cannot take Jon to court because of who Jon is (RLJ) not because he's a bastard. Jon may have had to stay out of the way and not dine/interact too much with the royal family but I think Jon would have preferred that at any rate.

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Cat's words are Family, Duty, Honor. Ned told her once, long ago, "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know." In other words, Jon is family. Jon is being raised alongside Cat's children; he has a close bond with several of them. In fact, apart from Cat (and to a lesser extent Sansa) the others think of Jon as if he really were just another Stark family member.

Though, the idea of obligation is kind of a moot point because Jon wants to go to the Wall so Cat shouldn't stand in his way.

I think we will fundamentally disagree on this matter. But let's step back for a moment. I''m not trying to whitewash Cat or exonerate her treatment of Jon. My posts in this thread have been in an effort to understand Cat's feelings towards Jon given what's in the text. As such Cat's words, as I tried to explain above, don't apply to Jon. Because of Ned and his promise to Lyanna, Cat has never been allowed and ultimately willing to see Jon as family. The latter is her chief failing, and again something which she ultimately feels guilty about. While I think part of her inability to “love” or nurture Jon stems from Ned’s usurpation of all parental rights, I think that Cat's biggest fault is not being able to focus and resolve her anger at Ned for foisting her and Jon together, forcing her to raise Jon among their children.

But while it's not the ideal reaction, I sympathize with Cat in that she feels no moral obligation to keep Jon at Winterfell in Ned's absence. It's because of Ned why Jon's there. It's largely because of Ned's preemption of Cat being in any way seen as acting like Jon's parent -- with all of the imperatives being a parent entails --, refusing to talk about Jon's mother to her, forcing her to live with highly unusual situation that she can't really treat him like family, part of the household. Furthermore, and I'm not directing this at you, but it really seems bizarre to assume that Cat should act like a "stepmother" on the issue of Jon's continued presence at Winterfell given that this categorization doesn't exist in Westeros. That said, her fault is not being able to "get over" her shame wrt Jon and not appropriately coping with her anger towards Ned by focusing her emotions on Jon, an innocent.

Does she have a moral obligation to keep Jon around? Well obligation to whom? If it's to Ned and her own children, the yes, she might have an obligation to keep Jon around (again, her words are Family, Duty, Honor). Jon is just a boy and none of this is his fault, Cat knows how close Jon is to her own children, she knows that Ned loves him. If you mean an obligation to herself, then no she is not obligated to keep Jon around. The fact that she doesn't want Jon to stick around is a reflection of her own feelings toward Jon, not because it's morally "better."

Well, I've neither argued that it's "morally better" for Cat to refuse Jon's continued presence at Winterfell in Ned's absence, just that there's no moral obligation for her to do so. This would be another issue if Cat was considered his stepparent, but she's not. And as I've stated elsewhere, of course her treatment of Jon is a reflection of how she feels about his presence, and I've repeatedly tried to explicate the reasons why she feels this way. I'm not convinced that Cat's obviating her family words by not allowing Jon to remain at Winterfell for the sake of his siblings because they love him (at least Robb and Arya). It seems to a bit of a reach. Ideally it would be nice but it asks Cat to be unrealistically self-sacrificing. It's a little like me pursuing play dates with a kid I don't like (warranted or not) only because my children like to play with him. I don't know if I could do that. Is that a flaw?

Also, despite Jon's bastard status and her negative feelings towards him, it seems she didn't prohibit Jon from cultivating relationships with his father and siblings.

I don't want to stray too far off topic, but could Ned take Jon to court? I mean servants are probably not checked for legitimacy, so Jon could probably serve under Jory, but could Ned take Jon to court as his son? Or would he be obliged to send Jon to stay with some armourer in the city if he took him along to KL?

"No place for him" and "shunned" seem a bit ambiguous to me. I know that "no place for him" could be metaphorical, but I'm still wondering - does that mean that Jon could only go there as practically a household servant or "only" that he (as Ned's son) would be despised by the high-born people?

Ned's desire to keep Jon's true identity a secret notwithstanding, it's not highly unusual, as BearQueen notes. He wouldn't sit at the high table and could be removed from participating in the political arena at court. IDK, since Jon idealized knights, perhaps he could've have been a squire?

Ned reinforcing Jon's bastard status ... I don't think Ned could pretend that Jon is not a bastard. Well.. careful now, in fact Ned may only be pretending that Jon is a bastard, :) but once he is pretending that, he must go through with it. [snip]

I wasn't referring to Ned's enforcement of Jon's bastard status as an issue to overcome. I agree with you. I'm trying to draw out the issue of how Ned perpetuated a home situation at Winterfell that, by and large, contributed to the Cat-Jon debacle; and demonstrate how Cat isn't the sole culprit. The point about Ned reinforcing Jon's bastard status is to address the criticism Cat gets for stigmatizing Jon, making his status known to him, while Ned perpetuates this just as much as she does.

Ultimately, I think my points about Cat, Ned, and Jon are really difficult to convey, begging the question of why bring them up at all. :laugh:

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...

While I think part of her inability to “love” or nurture Jon stems from Ned’s usurpation of all parental rights, I think that Cat's biggest fault is not being able to focus and resolve her anger at Ned for foisting her and Jon together, forcing her to raise Jon among their children.

...

Ultimately, I think my points about Cat, Ned, and Jon are really difficult to convey, begging the question of why bring them up at all. :laugh:

@UVA,

The rest of your points I understand and I don't have any fundamental disagreement.

But the bolded, I just don't get it. What do you mean by that, since you believe (rightly, IMO) that Cat did not have obligations towards Jon? To me this seems like a contradiction. What parental rights do you think should be granted to Cat? Can you be more specific about it?

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Ultimately, I think my points about Cat, Ned, and Jon are really difficult to convey, begging the question of why bring them up at all. :laugh:

:)

I know you're not trying to whitewash Cat and I'm not trying to make her into some evil unfeeling woman, either. Cat is decidedly more complex than that. I think it's an unbelievably difficult situation for all three people involved. Ned can't be honest with Cat (or Jon) and Cat can't "get over it" as you (rightly) put it.

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That was a very good analysis, TheBastardOfCasterlyRock! Very good job :thumbsup: Very good points from everyone else as well :cheers: I have a few thoughts. This is going to be an odd thing for me because in the last chapter my analysis was a more positive one where Catelyn is concerned...we'll see how this one goes...



Winter Is Coming And She Is A Woman of Summer


I thought @Arya_Nym made a good point in stating that Cat and Ned are opposites of one another. One of the ways the contrast between them is emphasized is with "cold" and "warm". Cat likes the warm springs running through the castle while Ned prefers the cold breeze coming through the window.



A History on Gallant Knights 101


I honestly don't know how to do this without seeming as though I am attacking Catelyn; but there were several issues in this chapter which fueled my impatience with her. In the last analysis I argued that she was a woman of evidence, a woman who prefers to understand things. This is still true in this chapter; however, she demonstrates it with the kind of evidence that is often associated with maidens who believe in true knights and beautiful songs. I admire her, but I grew impatient with her in this chapter.




Why couldn’t he see? “He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?”
“Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven,” Ned said. “And Joffrey... Joffrey is...”

She finished for him. “crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne.”




I realise that readers had the advantage of hindsight. It's also expected for noble-born individuals of her period to have romantic ideas of other noble characters. But as far as Catelyn knows, Rhaegar--a crown prince, kidnapped and raped Lyanna repeatedly. Aerys--a mad king, burnt and killed her betrothed and would-be father-in-law. Does anyone else think it was reckless of her to simply dismiss any doubts Ned might have about Joffrey based solely on his status as a crown prince? I fault Ned as well since he had the last word.


Additionally, Sansa is the oldest daughter so it's reasonable to assume that her "education" was more intensive than Arya's. After all, Sansa is expected to attract an impressive suitor. This would explain Sansa's willingness to accept songs and notions of true knights while Arya is more "skeptical". I see Ned and Cat in this as well.


I know this was probably the norm with everyone else but I can't help but hope they would have made better choices, sat down for more than an hour and actually assessed how they were doing things.


Not Another Cinderella Story

I have to disagree with those who suggest that Catelyn would have loved Jon if told the truth. I agree with BearQueen87 on this matter. I think Catelyn would have understood. That is where it would have ended. Like she did with the North, she would have grown used to him, but she would not have loved him. I don't think she ever hated him or was particularly cruel in any way. I just think that the fact that she thought he was the product of Ned's unfaithfulness fueled her indelicacy where he was concerned.


Having said all that, I can't help but think that Jon was never just a boy to him, he was the bastard son.


Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.



He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.



Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see.


...In Paradise


I know Cat and Ned's relationship is often portrayed as the example to follow in Westeros but I'm afraid I have to disagree with that as well. When it comes down to it I don't think Ned trusted her.



Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name [Jon Snow]. Ned felt the anger in her, and pulled away.



“And none of them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He-”



Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon... ...“Jon must go,” she said now.


In the previous lines we saw her lamenting the loss of her won children. She is especially sad at the thought of losing Bran. In the lines after that we saw her thinking just how much Ned loves Jon--his bastard son. However, she doesn't show empathy in that he would be losing Jon in sending him to the Wall. At the mere mention of his name she tenses and this is when Ned pulls away from her. Surely she hasn't missed this in all the years they have been married. He even compares her to Cersei Lannister--a woman we know he detests. The evidence is there Cat...grab it, embrace it, understand it... :dunno:



I think that over the years Ned was waiting for Catelyn to find it in her heart to forgive him. This is supported by Bran's last chapter in Dance. I think he wanted to give that chance of coming to it on her own but like I posited in the last chapter, Catelyn likes to be presented with tangible things she can understand. He wanted her to love Jon on her own. This is both a flaw and virtue when it comes to Ned--he wanted to believe the best about her yet at the same time he didn't trust her.



I don't think that he would have told her the truth if Luwin hadn't interrupted. Though I must admit it's certainly interesting to ponder.


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Not Another Cinderella Story
I have to disagree with those who suggest that Catelyn would have loved Jon if told the truth. I agree with BearQueen87 on this matter. I think Catelyn would have understood. That is where it would have ended. Like she did with the North, she would have grown used to him, but she would not have loved him. I don't think she ever hated him or was particularly cruel in any way. I just think that the fact that she thought he was the product of Ned's unfaithfulness fueled her indelicacy where he was concerned.

To the bold: I think there are different levels of cruelty. There's The Mountain and Ramsey type cruelty and then there's the softer cruelty known as neglect and indifference. Maybe cruelty is the wrong word for it, because I'm not trying to bash Cat in this regard. I do have sympathy for her because it's an impossible situation, but Jon did seemingly spend the first 15 years of his life in which the only "mother" figure he had around shunned him and let him know that he was different from her children to the point where "no matter what Catelyn said over the years, Ned refused to send Jon away"--meaning Cat was actively trying to get Jon out of WF and I bet Jon knew it. And I just can't overlook the fact that of all the people who do share some measure blame for this incredibly tangled mess (Rhaegar Targaryen, Aerys Targaryen, Lyanna Stark, Ned Stark, Brandon Stark, Robert Baratheon, Catelyn Tully, ect ect ect) the one person who is not to blame...is Jon Snow. And even if Cat knows none of this, doesn't change the fact that Jon is just a kid.

...In Paradise

I know Cat and Ned's relationship is often portrayed as the example to follow in Westeros but I'm afraid I have to disagree with that as well. When it comes down to it I don't think Ned trusted her.

Just want to say that I disagree, somewhat, with this. I don't think it's that Ned doesn't trust Cat. It's that Ned doesnt trust anyone with Jon. Because of his promise to Lyanna and because of who Jon really is, Ned simply cannot afford to trust Cat or anyone else with the knowledge of Jon. Ned does trust Cat with non-Jon related things: to look after WF while he's in KL; to help Robb become the next Lord of WF; to keep his secrets that he's looking for evidence that Cersei kill Jon Arryn. Jon is just the giant wolf-dragon (heh) in the room; but it's not just with Cat.

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In the eyes of Westeros, yes I think Ned could have taken Jon to court. Everyone in power already knows that Ned Stark had a bastard son he is raising in WF. And it's not as if bastards have never in the history of Westeros gone to court: Bloodraven springs to mind in the past, and Aurene Rivers in the present. Ned cannot take Jon to court because of who Jon is (RLJ) not because he's a bastard. Jon may have had to stay out of the way and not dine/interact too much with the royal family but I think Jon would have preferred that at any rate.

Ned's desire to keep Jon's true identity a secret notwithstanding, it's not highly unusual, as BearQueen notes. He wouldn't sit at the high table and could be removed from participating in the political arena at court. IDK, since Jon idealized knights, perhaps he could've have been a squire?

I wasn't referring to Ned's enforcement of Jon's bastard status as an issue to overcome. I agree with you. I'm trying to draw out the issue of how Ned perpetuated a home situation at Winterfell that, by and large, contributed to the Cat-Jon debacle; and demonstrate how Cat isn't the sole culprit. The point about Ned reinforcing Jon's bastard status is to address the criticism Cat gets for stigmatizing Jon, making his status known to him, while Ned perpetuates this just as much as she does.

Ultimately, I think my points about Cat, Ned, and Jon are really difficult to convey, begging the question of why bring them up at all. :laugh:

I agree that Ned's real reason to keep Jon out of court is to keep him safe (so he agrees to send him to the Wall, LOL, though it does turn out to be a relatively safer place). I was just curious about the argument he gave Cat, especially because It seems to be like the best kind of lie, the one with an element of truth in it. So thanks for the answers... Bastards may appear at court then, though the examples above are somewhat special. I can see that Jon would not be particularly happy in a place where birth is so important.

UVA, I agree that Cat is "not the sole culprit", she was definitely forced into this situation. Perhaps her initial inquiries about the mother could be interpreted as an effort to understand it or at least to find a person to loathe who is not a family member.

To the bold: I think there are different levels of cruelty. There's The Mountain and Ramsey type cruelty and then there's the softer cruelty known as neglect and indifference. Maybe cruelty is the wrong word for it, because I'm not trying to bash Cat in this regard. I do have sympathy for her because it's an impossible situation, but Jon did seemingly spend the first 15 years of his life in which the only "mother" figure he had around shunned him and let him know that he was different from her children to the point where "no matter what Catelyn said over the years, Ned refused to send Jon away"--meaning Cat was actively trying to get Jon out of WF and I bet Jon knew it. And I just can't overlook the fact that of all the people who do share some measure blame for this incredibly tangled mess (Rhaegar Targaryen, Aerys Targaryen, Lyanna Stark, Ned Stark, Brandon Stark, Robert Baratheon, Catelyn Tully, ect ect ect) the one person who is not to blame...is Jon Snow.

Just want to say that I disagree, somewhat, with this. I don't think it's that Ned doesn't trust Cat. It's that Ned doesnt trust anyone with Jon. Because of his promise to Lyanna and because of who Jon really is, Ned simply cannot afford to trust Cat or anyone else with the knowledge of Jon. Ned does trust Cat with non-Jon related things: to look after WF while he's in KL; to help Robb become the next Lord of WF; to keep his secrets that he's looking for evidence that Cersei kill Jon Arryn. Jon is just the giant wolf-dragon (heh) in the room; but it's not just with Cat.

I completely agree with the bolded parts.

The more people know about the secret, the more dangerous it is. I think there must be some truth in what Robert says that Ned hardly knew Catelyn at the beginning of their marriage. Later... though Catelyn is a loving wife, Ned knows that she does not love Jon Snow. If she found out who he really is, she would think of what it might mean to her own children if someone discovered they are hiding a Targaryen heir. She would want him to go all the same.

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To the bold: I think there are different levels of cruelty. There's The Mountain and Ramsey type cruelty and then there's the softer cruelty known as neglect and indifference. Maybe cruelty is the wrong word for it, because I'm not trying to bash Cat in this regard. I do have sympathy for her because it's an impossible situation, but Jon did seemingly spend the first 15 years of his life in which the only "mother" figure he had around shunned him and let him know that he was different from her children to the point where "no matter what Catelyn said over the years, Ned refused to send Jon away"--meaning Cat was actively trying to get Jon out of WF and I bet Jon knew it. And I just can't overlook the fact that of all the people who do share some measure blame for this incredibly tangled mess (Rhaegar Targaryen, Aerys Targaryen, Lyanna Stark, Ned Stark, Brandon Stark, Robert Baratheon, Catelyn Tully, ect ect ect) the one person who is not to blame...is Jon Snow. And even if Cat knows none of this, doesn't change the fact that Jon is just a kid.

Just want to say that I disagree, somewhat, with this. I don't think it's that Ned doesn't trust Cat. It's that Ned doesnt trust anyone with Jon. Because of his promise to Lyanna and because of who Jon really is, Ned simply cannot afford to trust Cat or anyone else with the knowledge of Jon. Ned does trust Cat with non-Jon related things: to look after WF while he's in KL; to help Robb become the next Lord of WF; to keep his secrets that he's looking for evidence that Cersei kill Jon Arryn. Jon is just the giant wolf-dragon (heh) in the room; but it's not just with Cat.

You make a compelling point. However, I can't pretend to understand how that would exactly: I trust you...but only sometimes... it doesn't seem an easy thing.

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