Nobody thinks the Others are pure evil, right?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Is a Wolf pure evil when he eats you?

No, but that does not mean that you did not get eaten.

[Dildo_Baggins]

Neither. I speculate they are somehow affiliated to the Starks. A Stark may control a bunch of white walkers the same as a targaryen controls a dragon. Hence from here the saying "winter is coming" probably means don't fuck with us, because if you do we have an army of white walkers that will come , bring with it the long night, and fuck you up.

But this is mere speculation.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I don't believe they are evil, especially since GRRM has questioned killing all orcs even baby ones. He's not the sort of author to make black characters, I am looking forward to the first look into the culture of the Others. Hopefully thorugh Jon or Bran.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

They just want a hug. A long cold hug.

[Doorlocks]

OP

1. Do you think they are just the prototypical evil 'bad guy'?

Even if they're sentient beings, just of a different type than humans, that doesn't change much. Vampires are just another type of being, but if they kill people to live they're still considered evil. Until we get a really big shift in information on them, letting us know that they don't want to bring a Night that Never Ends, they're still the Big Bad.

2. What do you think they're reason or drive is?

To make the entire world dark and cold, thus suitable for them. They're essentially invading and terraforming.

3. Could it be in fact, that perhaps the religion of R'Hollor is the main evil and the Others are fighting against that?

If the religion of R'Hollor wants to turn all of Planetos into a ball of fire or something, they would be on par with the Others. But I don't see fire as any worse than ice. Either extreme is bad, because either extreme would exterminate humans. It's all about balance.

4. Who do you think Bloodraven is ultimately serving? And in turn if Bran will follow in his footsteps or rebel?

I'm taking Bloodraven's alliance with the Children at face value. He serves them. The question then becomes whether or not the Children are actually working with or against the Others.

[chrisdaw]

Yes I think they're pure evil.

[Tolkiennerd]

We don't know their motivations or thought processes yet, so I think this whole conversation cannot come to any conclusive answer. So far they've done evil things, but they might have some justifiable purpose. Although it'd have to be a VERY good reason, and even then, I can't see them being any more than dark grey.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

I think they're the sculptors of the ASOIAF-verse. Dragons dance, Singers sing and Others sculpt. Martin has thematically written about every other art(culinary, music etc) except the visual arts.

Ice golems brought forth to sculpt and do fantastic things with ice.

[yomi]

Maybe they ara not evil but more comparable with a natural disaster. I still belive they are a dangerous threat to all warm life.

[ChillyPolly]

I think they're the sculptors of the ASOIAF-verse.

And the bards of the ASOIAF-statues.

[Patriam1066]

I think they're "evil" in so far as they act in ways that harm humans. We as humans then, must perceive their interests as antithetical to our own. At the same time, this being "A Song of Ice and Fire," I don't think much better can be said of the other side. Melisandre and her insistence of "convert or die" seems just as malevolent as the others. I'm just speculating, but I'm thinking both the ice and the fire embody "evil," and only function as "good" when they are in perfect balance... IE the prophesies and attempt to spawn the prince that was promised ... R (fire) + L (ice) = J (maybe the fulfillment of prophesy?). In other words, it's a duality of forces that need to be balanced.

As for the Brynden Rivers question, I think he, like Melisandre, is acting in the interest of ice / fire and thus isn't serving humanity. It seems everyone has their role to play, and only a few characters, like Davos, genuinely give a damn about the population of Westeros.

[Blazfemur]

they have a purpose, people. the 14th Lord Commander, saw fit, to eliminate all history of the night's watch, fromt eh 13th LC and backward. WHY>!>!!>

we're playing a game of telephone from 14th LC and forward, of what happened to 13th and before. AND WE'RE GOING BY THE 14TH'S WORD.

Again, this could all be heresay, especially since the only information we have to go on is that little slip-up HBO had confirming it was THe Night's King leading the Others. There's no book evidence he even EXISTS.

Still, on THAT episode, there were 13 of them. Including TNK. That means, theoretically, and assuming, that circle of 13 are the first 13 LC's.

How are the 13 taking Craster's children, and making them Others, different from The Night's Watch making their members members, and taking the oath? Admittedly, they're always given the "choice," but some arent even given that choice (if youre a criminal, it's TNW or death).

I'd like to reiterate, and correlate, and any other "ates" you wanna throw in there, The Others are openly and blatantly FOLLOWING the night's oath. Why do you think that is? again, theyre nomadic (hold no lands), they take craster's children (father no children), and the children are boys (hold no wives).

Craster, technically, is an oathbreaker wildling. He holds craster's keep, has 18 or so wives (cant remember the number), and fathers MANY children. They're also either ALL bastards, or if his daughters are recognized as wives officially, none of them are. So theoretically all the future "Others" are the "Other" children, the bastard children, the pitied, the "cursed," like Jon and Ramsay always were.

Going deeper, you all also need to realize and question why Others choose wildling children in particular to make their own (unofficially, because it isnt "reproduction" by normal standards). Does Craster have king's blood? Noble blood? First Men blood (i think it's first men blood). Or even TARG blood (who the hell knows right now, right?)

What is it about Craster's children, is it a toll? a tax? some form of agreement... i still think the secret was at that great ranging, when Jon and TNW visited that village and found "nothing." I think there was soemthing there.. they found a weirwood, and burned bodies. i think there was something more there, a secret, possibly to craster's past, or his mother, or something.

Regardless, it has to be a blood-secret. I feel, anyway.

The Old Night's Watch (The Others, 13th LC and backward), obviously have a gripe with The New Night's Watch (14th LC and on), and theres a secret that 14th LC tried to cover up by eliminating all prior histories from TNW library (per Sam to Jon)

ETA P.S.- actually, if you think about it, Old Nan had told Bran, it's rumoured TNK was a Bolton, but she thinks it was a Stark. What's ironic, is that the oncoming war is bastard v bastard, snow vs snow, or, Bolton vs Stark(?). Perhaps one of them ascends, in the midst of the oncoming Other raid. Future NK(?) Old Nan may have predicted the next contender to the ice throne ;)

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Tywin Lannister, Gregor Clegane, Qyburn, Amory Lorch, Roose and Ramsay Bolton, Walder Frey, The Harpy, the slavemasters, Lyn Corbray, Littlefinger, Euron Greyjoy, Joffrey...

...how much worse could The Others possibly be? What evil is left for them to do?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

they have a purpose, people. the 14th Lord Commander, saw fit, to eliminate all history of the night's watch, fromt eh 13th LC and backward. WHY>!>!!>

we're playing a game of telephone from 14th LC and forward, of what happened to 13th and before. AND WE'RE GOING BY THE 14TH'S WORD.

Again, this could all be heresay, especially since the only information we have to go on is that little slip-up HBO had confirming it was THe Night's King leading the Others. There's no book evidence he even EXISTS.

Still, on THAT episode, there were 13 of them. Including TNK. That means, theoretically, and assuming, that circle of 13 are the first 13 LC's.

How are the 13 taking Craster's children, and making them Others, different from The Night's Watch making their members members, and taking the oath? Admittedly, they're always given the "choice," but some arent even given that choice (if youre a criminal, it's TNW or death).

I'd like to reiterate, and correlate, and any other "ates" you wanna throw in there, The Others are openly and blatantly FOLLOWING the night's oath. Why do you think that is? again, theyre nomadic (hold no lands), they take craster's children (father no children), and the children are boys (hold no wives).

Craster, technically, is an oathbreaker wildling. He holds craster's keep, has 18 or so wives (cant remember the number), and fathers MANY children. They're also either ALL bastards, or if his daughters are recognized as wives officially, none of them are. So theoretically all the future "Others" are the "Other" children, the bastard children, the pitied, the "cursed," like Jon and Ramsay always were.

Going deeper, you all also need to realize and question why Others choose wildling children in particular to make their own (unofficially, because it isnt "reproduction" by normal standards). Does Craster have king's blood? Noble blood? First Men blood (i think it's first men blood). Or even TARG blood (who the hell knows right now, right?)

What is it about Craster's children, is it a toll? a tax? some form of agreement... i still think the secret was at that great ranging, when Jon and TNW visited that village and found "nothing." I think there was soemthing there.. they found a weirwood, and burned bodies. i think there was something more there, a secret, possibly to craster's past, or his mother, or something.

Regardless, it has to be a blood-secret. I feel, anyway.

The Old Night's Watch (The Others, 13th LC and backward), obviously have a gripe with The New Night's Watch (14th LC and on), and theres a secret that 14th LC tried to cover up by eliminating all prior histories from TNW library (per Sam to Jon)

ETA P.S.- actually, if you think about it, Old Nan had told Bran, it's rumoured TNK was a Bolton, but she thinks it was a Stark. What's ironic, is that the oncoming war is bastard v bastard, snow vs snow, or, Bolton vs Stark(?). Perhaps one of them ascends, in the midst of the oncoming Other raid. Future NK(?) Old Nan may have predicted the next contender to the ice throne ;)

We don't know that the 12 behind him are the first 12 LCs though. They could be the companions of the Last Hero. And that in no way tells us he is "leading the Others." If your theory is correct these guys are not Others. They're humans. Humans drastically changed by icy magic, but humans nonetheless. The only group we know that he leads (unless his friends are actually guards to escort him back to the frozen hell reserved for Starks) are the twelve men standing behind him.

We don't know that the Others hold no lands. Nor do we know that they take no wives or father no children. We also don't know that they haven't taken any girls. Just that Craster never shared his daughters. They could have been getting girls from someone else.

How is Craster an oathbreaker by taking wives, holding land, and fathering children. When did he join the Watch? When did any other Wildling? He does refer to his women as his wives so I'm thinking all the children count as legitimate, at least in his mind.

We don't know that the babies are turned into Others. They could be turned into hybrids, not fully part of each world, as Night's King himself is an Otherized human who is now no longer human but not a full Other. And yes that is different from joining the NW because at the beginning it was always voluntary. The babies can't volunteer. The criminals aren't a good parallel either because the babies haven't done anything for which they are being punished.

[Primalsplit]

Based on the given material, we can never be sure what their intentions are; what their motives are and even what their reason of existence are. We can only make an educated guess based on the clues we've been given. I don't have a theory on my own, but let me try to gather all the clues in case someone can create a good theory.

-The similarities between the night's watch and the others are existent. If they take children from craster, this shows they indeed require such offerings to raise their numbers. Meaning, they can't exactly reproduce those numbers by themselves.

-It can even be argued that they would not want to extinct the humanity off of westeros for this very reason. If they slay all the living, then they can not reproduce. It wouldn't be a wise thing to do even if they do not have aging problems.

-No being in the series is completely black or white. So there is no reason for white walkers to be completely black or white (no pun intended).

-Why are they referred as "the others"? Who gave them this name? If some are referred to as "others", then there must be "us" or something. Similarly, why are the named "white walkers"? The names might contain some clues.

-Why are they only in westeros but not in essos or in any other continent (as far as we know)?

-Starks and their words "Winter is coming". I know it's obvious but a clue is a clue.

-The wall and the Night's watch. Brandon the builder. It's obvious the wall is built to stop the others instead of the wildlings. Since the wall is there for a lot of time, then does that mean the others are there for a lot of time as well?

-The others are vulnerable to dragonglass and fire. They represent the ice (thank you captain obvious).

Raises the question if those others are a force of nature or artificial beings, meaning if there is a powerful mad lich behind them or something?

[nastydream]

What evil is left for them to do?

Exterminate humanity?

[TheLastStark]

they have a purpose, people. the 14th Lord Commander, saw fit, to eliminate all history of the night's watch, fromt eh 13th LC and backward. WHY>!>!!>

we're playing a game of telephone from 14th LC and forward, of what happened to 13th and before. AND WE'RE GOING BY THE 14TH'S WORD.

Again, this could all be heresay, especially since the only information we have to go on is that little slip-up HBO had confirming it was THe Night's King leading the Others. There's no book evidence he even EXISTS.

Still, on THAT episode, there were 13 of them. Including TNK. That means, theoretically, and assuming, that circle of 13 are the first 13 LC's.

How are the 13 taking Craster's children, and making them Others, different from The Night's Watch making their members members, and taking the oath? Admittedly, they're always given the "choice," but some arent even given that choice (if youre a criminal, it's TNW or death).

I'd like to reiterate, and correlate, and any other "ates" you wanna throw in there, The Others are openly and blatantly FOLLOWING the night's oath. Why do you think that is? again, theyre nomadic (hold no lands), they take craster's children (father no children), and the children are boys (hold no wives).

Craster, technically, is an oathbreaker wildling. He holds craster's keep, has 18 or so wives (cant remember the number), and fathers MANY children. They're also either ALL bastards, or if his daughters are recognized as wives officially, none of them are. So theoretically all the future "Others" are the "Other" children, the bastard children, the pitied, the "cursed," like Jon and Ramsay always were.

Going deeper, you all also need to realize and question why Others choose wildling children in particular to make their own (unofficially, because it isnt "reproduction" by normal standards). Does Craster have king's blood? Noble blood? First Men blood (i think it's first men blood). Or even TARG blood (who the hell knows right now, right?)

What is it about Craster's children, is it a toll? a tax? some form of agreement... i still think the secret was at that great ranging, when Jon and TNW visited that village and found "nothing." I think there was soemthing there.. they found a weirwood, and burned bodies. i think there was something more there, a secret, possibly to craster's past, or his mother, or something.

Regardless, it has to be a blood-secret. I feel, anyway.

The Old Night's Watch (The Others, 13th LC and backward), obviously have a gripe with The New Night's Watch (14th LC and on), and theres a secret that 14th LC tried to cover up by eliminating all prior histories from TNW library (per Sam to Jon)

ETA P.S.- actually, if you think about it, Old Nan had told Bran, it's rumoured TNK was a Bolton, but she thinks it was a Stark. What's ironic, is that the oncoming war is bastard v bastard, snow vs snow, or, Bolton vs Stark(?). Perhaps one of them ascends, in the midst of the oncoming Other raid. Future NK(?) Old Nan may have predicted the next contender to the ice throne ;)

1) Please show the quote that says it was the 14th LC in particular that either destroyed or ordered the destruction of the records.

2) If indeed the 1st 13 LC's became Others, then how? There must have been at least one other Other to convert them.

3) The NW before today were all there by choice, and still today have a choice. Granted the 2 choices aren't great but they have it. Craster's babies have no say what so ever.

4) the Other's are NOT following the NW oath. You have no proof that they take no lands(and by the way just because you don't build buildings doesn't mean you are not claiming that land as your own), converting babies to make more Others IS REPRODUCING and could be the only way that the Others do reproduce, and as for the take no wives we've only seen evidence of ONE female Other, and she may be the only one so then they would never have a chance to take a wife.

5) Craster was born a wildling and therefore never took the oath of the NW, this is just complete crap.

6) They take the babies FOR REPRODUCTION, and I hardly doubt they have a big meeting and said "geez guys, who should we steal babies from?". Craster is sacrificing his baby boys so that they will leave him alone, if he didn't do that he would have been dead long ago. But to your point his blood MIGHT be significant as to why they even except his tributes, or it could just be that they need any human baby boy.

7) And the rumors about the NK was about every house in the North IIRC and Old Nan is sure it was a Stark

And for the love of GOD stop saying they don't reproduce, they are NOT HUMAN and therefore it is idiotic to assume they reproduce the same way humans do. Reproduction is used to increase the population of a species, and converting human babies to Others is the same thing as two humans humping and making a baby.

-Why are they only in westeros but not in essos or in any other continent (as far as we know)?

-The wall and the Night's watch. Brandon the builder. It's obvious the wall is built to stop the others instead of the wildlings. Since the wall is there for a lot of time, then does that mean the others are there for a lot of time as well?

-The others are vulnerable to dragonglass and fire. They represent the ice (thank you captain obvious).

Raises the question if those others are a force of nature or artificial beings, meaning if there is a powerful mad lich behind them or something?

-They are only in westeros because that's where the land of always winter(where they come from) are.

-The Wall was reputedly created over 8,000 years prior to the present setting by Brandon the Builder after the Long Night to defend the realms of man from the wildlings and Others.

-A Song Of ICE and FIRE

-There could very well be a mad lich that has (once again maybe) taken control of the Others to his/her own purpose.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Exterminate humanity?

Just sayin' Humanity (westeros division) kinda Has It Coming.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

And the bards of the ASOIAF-statues.

eh?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Just sayin' Humanity (westeros division) kinda Has It Coming.

I absolutely adore your name and your avi. But, I must protest, I do NOT want either version of Sallador Saan to suffer through Salad Days. Him and his four wives deserve the champagne and caviar life.