Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD

[BearQueen87]

The problem though, is that the vows witihin the story are vague and once you go against them you are painted as a villain in society. Jorah for instance swears to protect Dany but it is never indicated that Dany in return must be a good Queen. Dany is the one who believes it is her duty to be a good Queen for her people. We don't know what Jorah will do if Dany ends up becoming a bad Queen. Will he still protect her? Will he kill her? Or will he walk away? Barristan is also a good person to question here.

I would say that while the liege never says, "and I shall be a good ruler..." in return for a the promised vow, it's understood. The ideal knight doesn't want to swear a vow to a liege/king who is cruel or unfit to rule. That's Barry's big issue; he has done is duty as a knight but the two king's he served--Aerys and Robert--weren't fit to rule, one was mad and one was a drunk. Before he dies he wants to know what it is to serve someone he can be proud to say he serves. That's Dany.

Jorah, of course, is more complicated because it goes beyond knight/queen duty and love to love of the woman as well. When he and Tyrion are in Volantis, they hear about Dany's supposed crimes and that she's a "bad" Queen and still he reiterates his original vows to the Whore of Volants--to serve, to defend, to die for Dany if need be. Now, part of that is because he loves her, and part of that is because he knows those are rumors, and part of that is because he believes her to be a good queen.

The situation ends up becoming "Slavish" when characters are forced in these moments and have to do things they are not in support of, such as protecting a King that rapes wife. This is slavish in the sense that they only have two choices, protect the person that is clearly not meant to be in that position or go against society norms and end up being black painted for life.

I agree with the situation, but I don't think it's the vows because the vows themselves are good in an ideal truly fantasy world. The vows would benefit both the knight and the king or queen. It's the reality of the world in which these characters live. There are no true white knights and there are no truly good kings or queens. All the rulers have some sort of flaw that would test a knights vows.

Regarding vows and reciprocity: This is an important issue. I'll have more to say later today when I post my analysis of the first Barristan POV. Now, a quick look at what happened with Jorah and Dany just before the pyre event is worthwhile:

The knight's promise of obedience is absolute. The ruler promises nothing in terms of honor, just rule, or anything of the sort. The knight gets the promise of a material reward, in this case, a promise of a sword of Valyrian steel. To me, it seems clear that this is the situation in the Seven Kingdoms. The overwhelming rule is that the big man (or woman) is not actually bound to any promise of honorable, or even decent, behavior. It may not always have been this way, but this is the current situation.

(Edited for spelling and grammar)

Well with Dany and Jorah here before the pyre, I think there is an understanding of just rule. It's the next part of the moment:

"I shall hold you to that oath. I pray you never regret the giving of it."

In other words, IMO, Dany is saying I shall try to be the best Queen possible in order for you knightly vows to be upheld.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I would say that while the liege never says, "and I shall be a good ruler..." in return for a the promised vow, it's understood. The ideal knight doesn't want to swear a vow to a liege/king who is cruel or unfit to rule. That's Barry's big issue; he has done is duty as a knight but the two king's he served--Aerys and Robert--weren't fit to rule, one was mad and one was a drunk. Before he dies he wants to know what it is to serve someone he can be proud to say he serves. That's Dany.

Jorah, of course, is more complicated because it goes beyond knight/queen duty and love to love of the woman as well. When he and Tyrion are in Volantis, they hear about Dany's supposed crimes and that she's a "bad" Queen and still he reiterates his original vows to the Whore of Volants--to serve, to defend, to die for Dany if need be. Now, part of that is because he loves her, and part of that is because he knows those are rumors, and part of that is because he believes her to be a good queen.

I agree with the situation, but I don't think it's the vows because the vows themselves are good in an ideal truly fantasy world. The vows would benefit both the knight and the king or queen. It's the reality of the world in which these characters live. There are no true white knights and there are no truly good kings or queens. All the rulers have some sort of flaw that would test a knights vows.

Well with Dany and Jorah here before the pyre, I think there is an understanding of just rule. It's the next part of the moment:

In other words, IMO, Dany is saying I shall try to be the best Queen possible in order for you knightly vows to be upheld.

I don't think it's generally understood, that "I will be a good ruler" If it was that general, many knights would have walked away after seeing the events of Joffrey and Aerys unfold. And even if it's generally understood the system still seems flawed since it is up to the knight to decide whether or not the person is ruling well or not.

I understand it is the reality of their world, but that still doesn't give the system of making vows a pass, especially since we even have characters in the story like Jaime challenging such norms in society. It seems to me that the author is rather raising questions of that system.

The problem with the Jorah and Dany example is that it doesn't represent all the vows in the story, the vows in the story are vague and seem to be twisted in different ways. For example Catelyn summons her fathers vassals based upon the oath they gave him not her, that again shows the problem with the system, I'm looking at this at a more broader context rather than just Dany and Jorah.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think it's generally understood, that "I will be a good ruler" If it was that general, many knights would have walked away after seeing the events of Joffrey and Aerys unfold. And even if it's generally understood the system still seems flawed since it is up to the knight to decide whether or not the person is ruling well or not.

I understand it is the reality of their world, but that still doesn't give the system of making vows a pass, especially since we even have characters in the story like Jaime challenging such norms in society. It seems to me that the author is rather raising questions of that system.

I think we might be arguing some of the same things? I was arguing against the vows themselves being slavish. In an idealistic setting the vows, the actual words and promises, would work. The system or world in which the characters live are flawed because it doesn't allow for the disillusioned knights to walk away once the person to whom they've sworn begins to act in a way that is not kingly or proper. But when the vow was originally given knights don't think that they've just sold themselves and I imagine that the Kings don't think they're despots.

The problem with the Jorah and Dany example is that it doesn't represent all the vows in the story, the vows in the story are vague and seem to be twisted in different ways. For example Catelyn summons her fathers vassals based upon the oath they gave him not her, that again shows the problem with the system, I'm looking at this at a more broader context rather than just Dany and Jorah.

Agree that the Dany/Jorah case is a bit more specialized, even more so because when Jorah swears, Dany is not an actual Queen (really).

The border context, as I see it, is that the vows--the actual words and ideas behind them--aren't slavish because idealistically it's based on reciprocity. But I think you and I are both in agreement that the reality is not in line with the fantasy.

[Parwan]

Barristan I

(The Queensguard)

Summary:

With Queen Daenerys gone, King Hizdahr has put his people in important positions. Barristan Selmy is no longer acting as a royal guard, but he continues as the commander of the military forces. Missandei has been replaced as herald. The Unsullied have withdrawn to their barracks. The Brazen Beasts are now under the command of Marghaz zo Loraq, Hizdahr’s cousin. It seems, however, that the pit fighters, the king’s personal guards, are his “only reliable support.” Dany’s people (especially the Unsullied) don’t love Hizzy. The Brazen Beasts are not reliable. Half of them are freedmen. The other half are shavepates, possibly still loyal to Skahaz mo Kandaq.

Barristan discusses matters with the seneschal, then returns to his quarters. The difficulty of climbing steps is one fact in this chapter that causes the knight to reflect on his advancing age. He walks out onto his terrace and looks over the city and the surrounding area. Things are not going well. The weather is hot and stifling. The pale mare is spreading. Selmy thinks about the strange fate that has brought him to his current position. He knows that, as a younger man, he would have been quick enough to stop Daenerys from entering the pit. It also occurs to him that Daario would have been quick enough. He muses out loud that Dany may be flying home.

“’No,’ murmured a soft voice behind him. ‘She would not do that, ser. She would not go home without us.’”

Selmy turns around to find Missandei, who informs him Skahaz mo Kandaq wants a word with him. It seems that the Shavepate can come and go in the pyramid as he pleases. Ser Barristan tells the little scribe to pass the word that he will meet with Skahaz. He also seeks to reassure her concerning Daenerys. It is not likely that the Yunkish scorpions will be able to shoot Drogon from the sky should he return. Aggo and Rakharo can find the queen. After all, “who knows the Dothraki sea better than Dothraki?”

The dark thoughts continue. Sometimes the man wonders “if he had not done his duty too well.” This phrase could be taken to mean different things. Barristan Selmy concentrates on Duskendale. Perhaps if he hadn’t rescued Aerys, things would have worked out better in the Seven Kingdoms; Rhaegar would have become king. But worse were his “failures.” So many of the people he was supposed to protect are dead, and yet he still lives. There is a brief respite, training the young prospective knights. Then the commander heads for his meeting with the Shavepate. Along the way, he wonders if he has a duty to protect Hizdahr zo Loraq. He decides that he doesn’t. His duty is to Daenerys Targaryen. Skahaz informs him that the source of the poison was Hizdahr’s confectioner. He claims that the peace is a sham. Well, not in the beginning, but it is now. Events in and around the pit changed things. Yurkhaz is dead and Daenerys gone. Then, we get the bomb shell—

“Volantis has launched its fleet against us.”

This is a real body blow. Skahaz says that the Wise Masters and their friends know about the matter. “This king will open the gates to the Volantenes when they arrive.” All the freedmen will be enslaved again. Some freeborn individuals will be enslaved. The only solution, according to mo Kandaq, is to strike quickly. He wants Barristan to talk to Grey Worm and bring the Unsullied into the battle plan. They have to hit the enemy before the huge fleet arrives. Queen Daenerys would want her children protected. Hizdahr is her poisoner and must be arrested. Selmy agrees to the plan, but he insists that no harm is to come to Hizdahr until his guilt is proven.

[Parwan]

Barristan I

Observations and Questions:

Missandei knows a lot, and important people realize this. When Skahaz decides to make contact with the head of the Queensguard, he reaches out to the little scribe. Selmy says that Missandei’s action was rash. I don’t think so. I think it was needed and well-informed.

Missandei still refers to herself as “this one.” Other former slaves use similar vocabulary. It’s a habit that is hard to break.

Concerning Strong Belwas, Selmy half suspects that the Blue Graces “were finishing the job those honeyed locusts had begun.” This, I believe, is the first hint about poison. The word isn’t used, but we get a strong feeling that the former pit fighter didn’t just suffer from overeating.

There is no mention of an official investigation into the events in the royal box.

There is no mention of what poison was used.

Do freedmen among the BBs follow Skahaz? In his opinion, yes. He says he has the BBs.

Selmy seems unsure about the matter.

Is Hizdahr zo Loraq just a catspaw? He’s certainly not a strong leader. That is indicated by the fact that “he sat uneasily on his new throne.” Barristan wants to know “If His Grace wishes for me to remove myself from court…” This inquiry is addressed to the seneschal, not the king. As we go on, we’ll see more reasons for considering Hizdahr a weakling.

Analysis:

The Peace

The peace is a sham and was a sham. Well, maybe not a total sham for the minority of Dany’s enemies who believed in a temporary accommodation. At any rate, the happenings at Daznak’s changed nothing of substance in this area.

The idea that the peace was originally successful isn’t convincing. The Yunkai’i, including Yurkhaz zo Yunzak, aren’t trustworthy. They are the ones who reached out to the Volantenes, and to the Dothraki. These are not actions that would be taken by people interested in peace. The Dany/Tatters view of Yurkhaz and Yezzan is the accurate one, much better than the more complimentary views held by Tyrion Lannister and Shavepate Skahaz.

In this chapter, the Shavepate refers to Yurkhaz as an “old lion.” More than a little irony in that title, right? If this so-called “lion” “honors” faithful servants by arranging to have them torn apart and devoured, then why should anyone care that he had “read his histories”? What assurance is there in the fact he realized the queen wanted peace too much? Do we have any reason to believe that he would have honored a treaty in anything more than the partial and temporary manner I referred to above (if even that)? Recall the Tattered Prince’s sarcastic comments (e.g. how the Yellow City must be “awash in tears” at the loss of its leader). I maintain that the sellsword knows a lot more about his current employers than does a Westerosi dwarf or a minor Meereenese lord.

Concerning the new enemy coming at Meereen, the Shavepate says, “The Wise Masters know. So do their friends.” That is true of the Wise Masters. It’s probably true of at least most of their friends. But exactly what do they know? Do they, for example, know the size of the Volantene fleet and all the promises made to the sellswords? It’s hard to believe that the Yunkishmen aren’t well informed. Every POV that takes place in Volantis shows the city gearing up for a major military campaign. The Yunkai’i are the ones who started the whole anti-Dany thing. They created the alliance. They have representatives in Volantis. Furthermore, the Windblown and the other mercenaries would certainly keep their employers apprised of developments. Also, the leader of the shavepates tells Barristan, “Bloodbeard…that one has no taste for peace.” Right, and who brought Bloodbeard into this deal? If the “lion” didn’t hire the sellsword and his company, then he allowed his underlings to do so.

Being generous, one could say that Hizdahr the businessman might have some idea that the Volantenes could be dealt with, more likely bought off. But he’d think this only because he was unaware of the impossibly high price that would be required. It could be that Yurkhaz (or, more likely, Yezzan) encouraged King Wimp in the belief that an agreement could last until Queen Daenerys departed for the western continent. Would any Yunkish leader himself have had confidence that things would hold together for even that long? Probably not.

No one informed the Targaryen forces about any of this. Barristan says, “Daenerys must be told.” A better question would have been, “Why weren’t we given any info before now?” I don’t blame the knight much for not asking that question. He is stunned by the news. And it wouldn’t matter much anyway. It would come to the same thing—war. If Selmy had analyzed Skahaz’s statement carefully, however, he would have seen it as worthless. “The pit changed all.” What could that mean? The former commander of the Kingsguard wouldn’t believe that Drogon’s arrival and the queen’s departure would have suddenly launched an enemy fleet. There is no possibility of a causal connection. Military preparations take time. If the Volantenes are on their way, they started getting ready a good while ago, back during the time when the dragon queen was agreeing to the marriage, saying that the Yellow City could continue slaving, etc. Clearly, Dany’s foes have not been operating in an honest manner. There was a lot of bad faith in the negotiations.

That brings up another important issue. How long has Skahaz known about Volantis?

Skahaz mo Kandaq

What is the deal with Skahaz? He isn’t the Harpy. He could be the person responsible for the poisoning, but it would be a strange move. Actually, the whole damn thing is strange, no matter who did it. Poisoning a bunch of locusts that anyone (or perhaps no one) would eat—that’s not a very skillful assassination attempt. In real world terms, it was not similar to, say, hiring a professional hit man, more like an amateur terrorist attack, lobbing a grenade into a crowd or something like that.

It appears that Skahaz would have to be simultaneously skillful and clumsy. He has maintained power despite being dismissed from his official position. He can come and go as he wants in the great pyramid. He has spies in the enemy camps. Some readers assert that he is playing Ser Barristan.* On the other hand, we have the strangeness of the locust business. I also question the timing of his announcement about the Volantene fleet. If he has known about the situation in Volantis for some time, he should have told Daenerys. That not only would have been his duty, it would have been to his advantage. Perhaps he only got the news a bit before he gave it to Ser Barristan. That seems contrived to me. Dany flies away on a dragon. Then the Shavepate’s foreign intelligence operation improves.

Lord Commander Barristan Selmy

Barristan Selmy is a decent fellow. More importantly, he is a symbol and an indicator. I have made this argument a few times before. Some people have grasped the point.

Barristan has more political ability than some give him credit for. He certainly has insight. He knows the king’s situation. He values Missandei and works with her. It’s true that his “the people of Westeros are waiting for you” comments made to Dany seem naive. I don’t think he fully believed them though. I think they were attempts to get the queen to move in “the right direction.”

I view the commander’s dark thoughts as symptomatic of his society. He and others can be legitimately accused of doing their duty too well. Selmy doesn’t interpret the phrase properly though.

The legitimate accusation would be grounded in a fundamental fact: The fault is not in the oath taker. It is in the oath. A significant problem with Barristan Selmy and men like him is that they fail to see this. When one partner in an agreement (an underling) is required to do all kinds of things, and the other side (a monarch or perhaps a high lord) is not required to do anything, then we have a “contract” in only the narrowest, least meaningful, and least worthy sense of the word. Who in the Seven Kingdoms realizes this? Essentially, no one—not Barristan Selmy, not Ned Stark, not Sandor Clegane, not Davos Seaworth, and no, not Jaime Lannister. **

In all, Lord Commander Barristan Selmy can be seen, indeed just about has to be seen, as the image of the honorable knight as viewed by Baratheons, Starks, Lannisters, and every other house. This, I maintain, is a central feature of ASoIaF. Sure, you can apply some tar to the guy. When you do this though, you can’t avoid spreading that tar widely, and I do mean widely. There is no legitimate way of protecting Stannis Baratheon, Sansa Stark, or anyone else. In the current chapter, Ser Barristan thinks of how hard the keeping of his vows has been at times. He wonders about blood on his hands. He doesn’t think about his status in the Seven Kingdoms. This is an aspect of things often ignored in posts on these forums. Who accuses Ser Barristan Selmy of being a hypocrite or of failing to act correctly when he accepted Robert’s pardon? A good many posters do this. In the story, no character does this. Who sees the man as the essence of honor, the sort of person a knight should be? The text indicates that just about everyone in the 7K thinks this way.

.................................................................

* I’ll discuss these matters more thoroughly in Barristan II.

** It’s true that there are contracts, or at least deals, in the sense of “passing out goodies.” Lord Baelish helps the Lannisters in the matter of the succession. The Lannisters give Baelish lands and titles.

[BearQueen87]

Barristan I

Observations and Questions:

This was a really great analysis Parwan!

First, does anyone else smile to themselves when Barry point blank refuses to call Hizzy anything other than "Grace." I know I do. :)

Missandei still refers to herself as “this one.” Other former slaves use similar vocabulary. It’s a habit that is hard to break.

Yes. The lasting effects of enslavement and the debasement that goes along with it are engrained in the minds of the slaves, to the point where we've had slaves state that they wouldn't give up their collars for anything, even freedom. This is not a remark against freedom so much as it is a statement about the almost kind of brain-washing that slavery has on the slaves themselves.

Concerning Strong Belwas, Selmy half suspects that the Blue Graces “were finishing the job those honeyed locusts had begun.” This, I believe, is the first hint about poison. The word isn’t used, but we get a strong feeling that the former pit fighter didn’t just suffer from overeating.

I also find it interesting that Selmy is now suspicious about the Graces. Was he suspicious before Dany flew off on Drogon? Can we think of a time when he tried to actively warn Dany against the Graces? If not, I think this shows that Barry has been keeping silent for a long time because he thinks it's not his place. He thinks something similar in this chapter: "Ser Barristan's tone gave no hint of his true feelings; he had learned to hide such back in King's Landing years ago."

The title of this chapter is intriguing. "The Queensguard" yet Barry isn't really QG is he? There is no Queen and even the so-called King doesn't want Barry to protect him, preferring Meereenese warriors. The chapter titles are tinged with the same ironic flavor as Quentyn's but instead of being in mockery, these are rather sad. The QG is without a Queen.

There is no mention of an official investigation into the events in the royal box.

Yeah and that's not suspicious at all. It's stuff like this that makes me think that the poison was for Dany.

Is Hizdahr zo Loraq just a catspaw? He’s certainly not a strong leader. That is indicated by the fact that “he sat uneasily on his new throne.” Barristan wants to know “If His Grace wishes for me to remove myself from court…” This inquiry is addressed to the seneschal, not the king. As we go on, we’ll see more reasons for considering Hizdahr a weakling.

I would say yes. Everything Hizzy has done has been under the orders of the person above him, most likely the GG, The Harpy.

The Peace

The peace is a sham and was a sham. Well, maybe not a total sham for the minority of Dany’s enemies who believed in a temporary accommodation. At any rate, the happenings at Daznak’s changed nothing of substance in this area.

The idea that the peace was originally successful isn’t convincing. The Yunkai’i, including Yurkhaz zo Yunzak, aren’t trustworthy. They are the ones who reached out to the Volantenes, and to the Dothraki. These are not actions that would be taken by people interested in peace. The Dany/Tatters view of Yurkhaz and Yezzan is the accurate one, much better than the more complimentary views held by Tyrion Lannister and Shavepate Skahaz.

In this chapter, the Shavepate refers to Yurkhaz as an “old lion.” More than a little irony in that title, right? If this so-called “lion” “honors” faithful servants by arranging to have them torn apart and devoured, then why should anyone care that he had “read his histories”? What assurance is there in the fact he realized the queen wanted peace too much? Do we have any reason to believe that he would have honored a treaty in anything more than the partial and temporary manner I referred to above (if even that)? Recall the Tattered Prince’s sarcastic comments (e.g. how the Yellow City must be “awash in tears” at the loss of its leader). I maintain that the sellsword knows a lot more about his current employers than does a Westerosi dwarf or a minor Meereenese lord.

Concerning the new enemy coming at Meereen, the Shavepate says, “The Wise Masters know. So do their friends.” That is true of the Wise Masters. It’s probably true of at least most of their friends. But exactly what do they know? Do they, for example, know the size of the Volantene fleet and all the promises made to the sellswords? It’s hard to believe that the Yunkishmen aren’t well informed. Every POV that takes place in Volantis shows the city gearing up for a major military campaign. The Yunkai’i are the ones who started the whole anti-Dany thing. They created the alliance. They have representatives in Volantis. Furthermore, the Windblown and the other mercenaries would certainly keep their employers apprised of developments. Also, the leader of the shavepates tells Barristan, “Bloodbeard…that one has no taste for peace.” Right, and who brought Bloodbeard into this deal? If the “lion” didn’t hire the sellsword and his company, then he allowed his underlings to do so.

Being generous, one could say that Hizdahr the businessman might have some idea that the Volantenes could be dealt with, more likely bought off. But he’d think this only because he was unaware of the impossibly high price that would be required. It could be that Yurkhaz (or, more likely, Yezzan) encouraged King Wimp in the belief that an agreement could last until Queen Daenerys departed for the western continent. Would any Yunkish leader himself have had confidence that things would hold together for even that long? Probably not.

No one informed the Targaryen forces about any of this. Barristan says, “Daenerys must be told.” A better question would have been, “Why weren’t we given any info before now?” I don’t blame the knight much for not asking that question. He is stunned by the news. And it wouldn’t matter much anyway. It would come to the same thing—war. If Selmy had analyzed Skahaz’s statement carefully, however, he would have seen it as worthless. “The pit changed all.” What could that mean? The former commander of the Kingsguard wouldn’t believe that Drogon’s arrival and the queen’s departure would have suddenly launched an enemy fleet. There is no possibility of a causal connection. Military preparations take time. If the Volantenes are on their way, they started getting ready a good while ago, back during the time when the dragon queen was agreeing to the marriage, saying that the Yellow City could continue slaving, etc. Clearly, Dany’s foes have not been operating in an honest manner. There was a lot of bad faith in the negotiations.

I don't have a whole lot to say here because I often find keeping track of all the ins and outs of the politics in Slaver's Bay to be a daunting task but this was really well written.

I agree that peace was never anything more than a sham. One thing to point out,thought, is that the peace might have succeeded IF Dany used her Unsullied and Dragons in the manner befitting them: "The Yunkai'i were afraid of our queen, of her Unsullied, of her dragons. This land has known dragons before."

I think this speaks to something we're going to see in Winds: the only way to bring lasting peace and change to Slaver's Bay is through fire and blood. I'm a bit of a pacifist myself. I think when you have the option for peace, you go for it, and Dany did. She made peace, she gave away little parts of herself during Dance, she married into Meereeneese nobility, literally becoming chained to a person of the cities choosing. And it didn't work. Like Parwan said, if the fleet from Volantis is at SB's doorstep, then they left some time ago, not after Dany flew off on Drogon.

And yeah, about Skahaz...

Skahaz mo Kandaq

What is the deal with Skahaz? He isn’t the Harpy. He could be the person responsible for the poisoning, but it would be a strange move. Actually, the whole damn thing is strange, no matter who did it. Poisoning a bunch of locusts that anyone (or perhaps no one) would eat—that’s not a very skillful assassination attempt. In real world terms, it was not similar to, say, hiring a professional hit man, more like an amateur terrorist attack, lobbing a grenade into a crowd or something like that.

It appears that Skahaz would have to be simultaneously skillful and clumsy. He has maintained power despite being dismissed from his official position. He can come and go as he wants in the great pyramid. He has spies in the enemy camps. Some readers assert that he is playing Ser Barristan.* On the other hand, we have the strangeness of the locust business. I also question the timing of his announcement about the Volantene fleet. If he has known about the situation in Volantis for some time, he should have told Daenerys. That not only would have been his duty, it would have been to his advantage. Perhaps he only got the news a bit before he gave it to Ser Barristan. That seems contrived to me. Dany flies away on a dragon. Then the Shavepate’s foreign intelligence operation improves.

Skahaz's endgame is baffling. He is obviously someone trying to up his status in the world. He is playing his own Game of Thrones, trying to keep Hizzy away from Dany, be someone she depends upon yet the keeps vital secrets that would have pushed him "up the ladder" as it were, like the Volantis fleet.

Any idea who his operatives are in Volantis? Is he like Varys that he has little birds scattered here and there? And who are these spies in The Yunkai'i's camp? How long have they been there? What SIDE is this guy on?

And part of Skahaz's plan is actually what we know happens in Winds:

the sell swords under BBP will turn once convinced by Tyrion and Jorah

Might the other two parts, break the siege and killing the slaver lords also come to pass?

Also, there is more than just bitter rivarlry between Skahaz and Hizdahr:

But when we have proof, I mean to kill him with my own hands. I want to pull his entrails out and show them to him before I let him die.

This is more than just Skahaz feeling slighted once Hizdahr removed him after the wedding.

Lord Commander Barristan Selmy

Barristan Selmy is a decent fellow. More importantly, he is a symbol and an indicator. I have made this argument a few times before. Some people have grasped the point.

I like Selmy quite a bit. I think he had high minded ideals when he became a knight and took the white; those ideals crumble in the face of reality. He talks about fighting in an upcoming chapter as the sweet song but I think over the years Barry has learned that being a knight is no song--not when you serve Kings that are mad, drunk, young and crazy (Aerys, Robert, Joffery, respectively).

Barristan has more political ability than some give him credit for. He certainly has insight. He knows the king’s situation. He values Missandei and works with her. It’s true that his “the people of Westeros are waiting for you” comments made to Dany seem naive. I don’t think he fully believed them though. I think they were attempts to get the queen to move in “the right direction.”

The fact that Selmy is suspicious of the Graces attending to Belwas show that he's known the lay of the land in Meereen for awhile. But his problem is that he thinks his place is as a "white shadow." His role in this drama is to protect and obey, not advise and counsel. He doesn't know when to speak, he must wait for permission. If Jorah speaks too much and doesn't know when to silence his suspicious nature, Selmy doesn't know when to voice concern. Even here when talking to Skahaz, Selmy is hesitating to take the steps that might be necessary until he is assured in his convictions.

The legitimate accusation would be grounded in a fundamental fact: The fault is not in the oath taker. It is in the oath.

I know you, Queen Alysanne, and myself were just discussing this but I still don't think it's the oaths themselves. There is, I feel, a bit of implicit understanding when these are given. And this extends beyond the Knightly vows, but to vows between Minor lords and Great Lords. In aGoT (I think...?) we learn that Ned has a different member of his household or sometimes minor lord sit at his high table every night to discuss the goings on of their hold fast or specialty. Ned Stark is, to me, what the vows are supposed to look like. If a Minor lord comes to WF with a request of Ned, Ned would grant the request because that's how you ensure loyalty of the people who have given oaths of fealty. It's very "if you wont fight for me, why should I fight for you?" Ned, though, is the exception.

The problem, for me, is not the oaths which at the end of the day are words and ideas, it's the fact that these people live in a world where those oaths can't be upheld as they were intended to be upheld because people are selfish and vain and cruel and oftentimes political machines that care more about their own personal gain than the high minded ideals.

Barry, though, tries very hard to stay true to that knightly ideal. When he thinks about how he wants to be the one to kill Hizdahr he thinks:

No, the old knight thought. If Hizdahr conspired at my queen's death, I will see to him myself, but his death will be swift and clean.

As someone who is genuinely fond of Dany as a person, and respects her as a Queen, his first instinct should be to let Skahaz kill Hizdarh in revenge in the manner of Skahaz's choosing. But Barry is still trying to live in that ideal world of the knightly vow, so even if Hizdahr will never his King, he's still the Queen's Consort and thus deserving of a clean and quick death. He's not going to reveal in the bloodshed, in other words.

In all, Lord Commander Barristan Selmy can be seen, indeed just about has to be seen, as the image of the honorable knight as viewed by Baratheons, Starks, Lannisters, and every other house

I agree. Barry is probably as close to "white knight in shinning armor" as we get in ASOIAF.

Other Thoughts

1. Reznak mo Reznak climbed fast did he not. He's another one I'm unsure of. He moved into Hizdahr's camp quite quickly.

2. With Dany gone, Selmy is the only one left who tries to keep Westerosi styles alive. He calls Hizdahr "Your Grace" and is rebuked by Reznak because "this style is Westerosi." Selmy prays to the Crone to light his way at the end of the chapter.

3. Even though I agree that Selmy is as close to white knight (living) in ASOIAF, he thinks that he failed her father (Aerys) and her brother (Rhaegar), yet he forgets that had he gone in search of the Targaryens earlier, he would have been under the kingship of Viserys, Dany's middle brother. A few paragraphs later, Selmy thinks of all those he has failed and Viserys doesn't spring into this thoughts. So yes, he did come to bring Daenerys home, but I think that it's still important to remember that he did not do this until Joffery kicked him out of King's Landing. Had that not happened, would Ser Barristan Selmy still have gone in search of Daenerys Targaryen?

4. Selmy recalls that he watched Dany fly away "through a veil of tears." He cares for Dany as more than a knight/Queen. He truly cares about her. This is the kind of loyalty Dany inspires amongst the people that serve her. And of course it's not just Selmy, it's Missandei.

5. Two allusions to Aegon the Conqueror and Balerion the Black Dread in this chapter, both of them in reference to Dany. The second one notes that "many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. None succeeded." I'd like to think this is a nod that none will succeed in taking down Dany.

6. I really need Selmy to not die before he tells Dany (and us) everything he knows about Summerhall and Duskendale.

[Parwan]

This was a really great analysis Parwan!

First, does anyone else smile to themselves when Barry point blank refuses to call Hizzy anything other than "Grace." I know I do. :)

...

Other Thoughts

1. Reznak mo Reznak climbed fast did he not. He's another one I'm unsure of. He moved into Hizdahr's camp quite quickly.

2. With Dany gone, Selmy is the only one left who tries to keep Westerosi styles alive. He calls Hizdahr "Your Grace" and is rebuked by Reznak because "this style is Westerosi." Selmy prays to the Crone to light his way at the end of the chapter.

3. a. Even though I agree that Selmy is as close to white knight (living) in ASOIAF,

b. he thinks that he failed her father (Aerys) and her brother (Rhaegar),

c. yet he forgets that had he gone in search of the Targaryens earlier, he would have been under the kingship of Viserys, Dany's middle brother. A few paragraphs later, Selmy thinks of all those he has failed and Viserys doesn't spring into this thoughts. So yes, he did come to bring Daenerys home, but I think that it's still important to remember that

d. he did not do this until Joffery kicked him out of King's Landing. Had that not happened, would Ser Barristan Selmy still have gone in search of Daenerys Targaryen?

...

Thanks.

Barry's use of language here is interesting. I don't have terribly strong feelings about it. One thing of note--The fellow is sometimes accused of being a yes man. His action in this case shows that the charge is not accurate. There are other examples showing the same thing.

1. I've always thought of Reznak as less trustworthy than Skahaz. That's just a feeling, and possibly not a very important one. I'm certainly not saying that either man is particularly trustworthy.

2. "The gods of Westeros were far away..." That's an interesting thought. Many religions in Martin's world are quite unlike the monotheistic faiths of our world. The worship of the red god is more like our dominant religions: There is one true way, true everywhere and for everyone. Ser Barristan seems to me to be similar to quite a few important characters in ASoIaF. He has a pious side, but he is basically secular in his attitudes. One might say that the Kingsguard was his true religion.

3. a. My main point is not that Selmy is a white knight, but that the people of the Seven Kingdoms (aristocrats and commoners) consider him to be one. This can be a rather difficult matter to argue. Sometimes I don't make the case clearly enough. On other threads, I've received responses claiming that many men in Westeros are more honorable than Barristan Selmy. One name that comes up often is Davos Seaworth. I often do not agree that the men named are more honorable than Ser Barristan, but going into that dispute causes things to drift away from my main argument. In this chapter, the commander thinks--

In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.

To me, that is another example of the failure of the entire system of the 7K. Nothing is what a member of the Kingsguard is supposed to do in this case (required to do really). The problem is with the vow. The commander fails to see this.

It appears that this is an issue on which we will have to agree to disagree.

b. I believe that Selmy's worries about "failures" amount to survivor's guilt.

c. In ASoS, Ser Barristan says, "...even as a child, your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father's son, in ways that Rhaegar never did." I don't remember his saying or thinking anything else about Viserys. If he learned about the middle child's later career and the manner of his death, it's not surprising that he doesn't feel guilt in this case.

d. As I recall, Barristan admits that he probably wouldn't have left if Joffrey hadn't dismissed him. He isn't proud of this, but he admits it. I maintain that this goes back to my earlier point about Selmy's "religion." I think that he was truly shocked, not only that he was being dismissed, but that the action was taken at all. The Kingsguard serves for life. That is not just a rule. There is something sacred about it. A good king would never have broken the rule.

A true yes man would simply have thanked the monarch and retired. Selmy also could have pretended to accept the deal and then gone to serve someone else. He didn't do either of these things. He has more honor than that.

[Kyoshi]

Barristan I

Observations and Questions:

<snip snipitty snip snip>

Really good analysis, Parwan! :thumbsup: Thanks! I just have a few small thoughts.

First is the name of the chapter. I'm one of those who believe some of the names tie into the identity of the POV character, at that time. I think that Barry was politically savvy enough to realise that Dany needed some kind of representative in Meereeen if everything she built and was in the process of trying to accomplish, stood any chance at all. Hence the Queensguard. In short, I agree that Barry is perhaps not as politically inept as has been suggested. The incident where he tells Dany the people of Westeros are waiting for her can be viewed in one of two ways, IMO:

1. He is naive.

2. He was merely a man telling a "gallant" lie to a young girl meant to believe him. Upon believing him, the young girl was supposed to do what he wanted.

With regard to vows in Planetos, I think the issue/problem is with the vow itself. Westerosi people have the kind of mentality where nobles are theoretically infallible. The fact that this theory does not hold true in reality seems irrelevant based solely on the circular argument that nobles are in fact, infallible. I think when one takes an oath, it is not at all implied that the person (king, queen, lord, lady) in charge is obliged to fulfill any requirements, thus deeming him/her worthy of the vow. So in theory, every king and queen and any other ruler is worthy of any vow/oath taken by a subject.

BearQueen, you even quote that Barry reflects on all the "bad kings" he served. Yet he was still willing to serve Joffrey, and would have, had he not been dismissed. Even after his many crimes, Joffrey is still remembered as Good King Joffrey, first of his name. The only kings and queens who seem to have gone out of favour with the general public are from the Targaryen Dynasty. I assume it's because they no longer have perceivable power. When it comes down to it, the contract of vows is a one-sided one. Furthermore, while you seem to assume that the relevant ruler is expected to be accountable on certain levels, we know this is not true because higher nobles use lesser nobles and common folk as leverage. I would go as far as stating that this is common knowledge, an open secret, so to speak. The vow seems to favour only the ruler/person in charger. You're bound to get a few outliers like Ned and Jorah because human nature dictates that there be deviations where set rules are concerned.

[horizon]

Barristan is the harpy. He instigates all of this to get Danaerys so far she will finally leave for Westeros.

No, that doesn't work.

But I agree, if Barristan would have stayed in service with Joffrey he would not have gone searching for Danaerys.

[SeanF]

That's a really good analysis Parwan.

1. I think that up to a point, Hizdahr is honest. He thinks that a deal can be worked out between slave-states and Meereen. From his point of view, what does it matter if slavery exists or not, so long as people like him are in charge can hire back ex-slaves at a pittance, and he make a fortune from the pit-fighting companies he bought up cheaply?

Hizdahr's pit-fighters will join in the attack on the Slavers outside Meereen, chanting his name in the fight. That implies to me that he is not truly in league with the Yunkish, and planning to betray the city to them

2. He's weak and out of his depth (as we'll see in the next chapter, when he's terrified by the Yunkish envoy presenting him with the heads of the hostages). I don't accept the Shavepate's argument that this was just an act on his part. I agree that he's being played for a fool by the Yunkish and the sellswords. If that's so, then I suspect the Great Masters as a whole are being played for fools. If Meereen is taken by storm, I doubt if the Slavers will make any distinction between the Great Masters, free Meerenese, and ex-slaves. They'll all face pillage, rape, and enslavement.

3. The Volantenes may be playing everyone for fools. They're the regional superpower. The army and navy they've put together is enormous. They have a record of wanting to recreate the Valyrian Empire, to which they see themselves as the natural heirs. There are plenty of examples in the real world of people calling upon powerful allies for help against local enemies, and then finding that those powerful allies turn on them.

4. My view is that the Shavepate was behind the poisoned locusts, and deliberately botched the poisoning, in order to discredit Hizdahr. He's very ambitious, hates Hizdahr (for some reason), and needs the Slavers to be destroyed, both to fulfil his ambitions, and to save his own life. He knows nothing about the Iron Fleet (so far as I know), but there is good reason to believe that the military balance is shifting against the Slavers. The Pale Mare is decimating their forces, and a swift attack could shatter them (he may also know from his own agents that the Windblown might switch). But, if they wait for the Volantenes to arrive, without fighting, they'll be overwhelmed.

The supposed attempted poisoning is another piece of evidence he can use to justify an attack.

[MoIaF]

Barristan I

(The Queensguard)

Excellent analysis Parwan. Thank you! :thumbsup:

Barristan I

Analysis:

The Peace

The peace is a sham and was a sham. Well, maybe not a total sham for the minority of Dany’s enemies who believed in a temporary accommodation. At any rate, the happenings at Daznak’s changed nothing of substance in this area.

The idea that the peace was originally successful isn’t convincing. The Yunkai’i, including Yurkhaz zo Yunzak, aren’t trustworthy. They are the ones who reached out to the Volantenes, and to the Dothraki. These are not actions that would be taken by people interested in peace. The Dany/Tatters view of Yurkhaz and Yezzan is the accurate one, much better than the more complimentary views held by Tyrion Lannister and Shavepate Skahaz.

In this chapter, the Shavepate refers to Yurkhaz as an “old lion.” More than a little irony in that title, right? If this so-called “lion” “honors” faithful servants by arranging to have them torn apart and devoured, then why should anyone care that he had “read his histories”? What assurance is there in the fact he realized the queen wanted peace too much? Do we have any reason to believe that he would have honored a treaty in anything more than the partial and temporary manner I referred to above (if even that)? Recall the Tattered Prince’s sarcastic comments (e.g. how the Yellow City must be “awash in tears” at the loss of its leader). I maintain that the sellsword knows a lot more about his current employers than does a Westerosi dwarf or a minor Meereenese lord.

Concerning the new enemy coming at Meereen, the Shavepate says, “The Wise Masters know. So do their friends.” That is true of the Wise Masters. It’s probably true of at least most of their friends. But exactly what do they know? Do they, for example, know the size of the Volantene fleet and all the promises made to the sellswords? It’s hard to believe that the Yunkishmen aren’t well informed. Every POV that takes place in Volantis shows the city gearing up for a major military campaign. The Yunkai’i are the ones who started the whole anti-Dany thing. They created the alliance. They have representatives in Volantis. Furthermore, the Windblown and the other mercenaries would certainly keep their employers apprised of developments. Also, the leader of the shavepates tells Barristan, “Bloodbeard…that one has no taste for peace.” Right, and who brought Bloodbeard into this deal? If the “lion” didn’t hire the sellsword and his company, then he allowed his underlings to do so.

Being generous, one could say that Hizdahr the businessman might have some idea that the Volantenes could be dealt with, more likely bought off. But he’d think this only because he was unaware of the impossibly high price that would be required. It could be that Yurkhaz (or, more likely, Yezzan) encouraged King Wimp in the belief that an agreement could last until Queen Daenerys departed for the western continent. Would any Yunkish leader himself have had confidence that things would hold together for even that long? Probably not.

No one informed the Targaryen forces about any of this. Barristan says, “Daenerys must be told.” A better question would have been, “Why weren’t we given any info before now?” I don’t blame the knight much for not asking that question. He is stunned by the news. And it wouldn’t matter much anyway. It would come to the same thing—war. If Selmy had analyzed Skahaz’s statement carefully, however, he would have seen it as worthless. “The pit changed all.” What could that mean? The former commander of the Kingsguard wouldn’t believe that Drogon’s arrival and the queen’s departure would have suddenly launched an enemy fleet. There is no possibility of a causal connection. Military preparations take time. If the Volantenes are on their way, they started getting ready a good while ago, back during the time when the dragon queen was agreeing to the marriage, saying that the Yellow City could continue slaving, etc. Clearly, Dany’s foes have not been operating in an honest manner. There was a lot of bad faith in the negotiations.

That brings up another important issue. How long has Skahaz known about Volantis?

The peace is a sham, even if the Meereen nobility knew nothing of the Yunkai's alliance with Volantis, the peace was never going to hold once the Volantis army arrived.

The Yunkai were obviously biding their time with Daenerys until the Yunkai army arrived and then they could overpower Meereen.

Had the Yunkai truly wanted peace, what would have happened once the Volantis fleet arrived? Oh, sorry we called upon you guys, but we have totally worked out a peace agreement so you guys can head back home? Yeah, right.

I don't get the argument that the peace was real, it was real from Dany's part and maybe the Harpy's (to an extent) but it was never real from the Yunkai side.

Skahaz mo Kandaq

What is the deal with Skahaz? He isn’t the Harpy. He could be the person responsible for the poisoning, but it would be a strange move. Actually, the whole damn thing is strange, no matter who did it. Poisoning a bunch of locusts that anyone (or perhaps no one) would eat—that’s not a very skillful assassination attempt. In real world terms, it was not similar to, say, hiring a professional hit man, more like an amateur terrorist attack, lobbing a grenade into a crowd or something like that.

It appears that Skahaz would have to be simultaneously skillful and clumsy. He has maintained power despite being dismissed from his official position. He can come and go as he wants in the great pyramid. He has spies in the enemy camps. Some readers assert that he is playing Ser Barristan.* On the other hand, we have the strangeness of the locust business. I also question the timing of his announcement about the Volantene fleet. If he has known about the situation in Volantis for some time, he should have told Daenerys. That not only would have been his duty, it would have been to his advantage. Perhaps he only got the news a bit before he gave it to Ser Barristan. That seems contrived to me. Dany flies away on a dragon. Then the Shavepate’s foreign intelligence operation improves.

I don't know what Skahaz deal is, he's really hard to read. His problems with Hizzy go back as their families hated each other. However, if he had known about the coming of the Volantis fleet I can't imagine why he wouldn't have shared that information with Dany before. It wouldd have shown Dany that the Yunkai had never really wanted peace and it would have made Hizzy look like a fool or worse an accomplice.

Skahaz did say he had spies in the Yunkai camp and my suspicion is that one of those spies gave him the information about the coming of the Volantis fleet.

Other Notes:

Reznak is allied with the Green Grace who in turn is the one who selected Hizzy as Dany's concert. It's not difficult to see why Hizzy would keep him around. Reznak helped sell Hizzy to Dany and so therefore there is an implied alliance

I would agree with the majority here that Barristan doesn't seem as naive as some make him out to be. he is suspicions of the Shavepate but he is even more suspicious of Hizzy which is why he agrees to participate in the coup d'etat.

[BearQueen87]

With regard to vows in Planetos, I think the issue/problem is with the vow itself. Westerosi people have the kind of mentality where nobles are theoretically infallible. The fact that this theory does not hold true in reality seems irrelevant based solely on the circular argument that nobles are in fact, infallible. I think when one takes an oath, it is not at all implied that the person (king, queen, lord, lady) in charge is obliged to fulfill any requirements, thus deeming him/her worthy of the vow. So in theory, every king and queen and any other ruler is worthy of any vow/oath taken by a subject.

Yes, in an idealistic world, all the nobles are infallible and the all the knights are white and pure and honorable. But the system in which our characters live is not that fantasy.

Which would you change to affect the other? Does changing the vows or doing away with them change the system? You have a knight under this new vows who speaks about against despotic rulers...the despotic ruler burns him at the stake. The flawed system/world remains flawed.

I guess I'm the outlier here this week. I see the vows as a set of words and ideas that would work if the system/world was better, not if the vows themselves were better.

Furthermore, while you seem to assume that the relevant ruler is expected to be accountable on certain levels, we know this is not true because higher nobles use lesser nobles and common folk as leverage. I would go as far as stating that this is common knowledge, an open secret, so to speak

This is why I keep saying in an ideal world. But, I guess we agree to disagree. I don't think the vow is the problem, it's the world in which they live that doesn't allow the vow to be acted out as intended because people are...people.

Excellent analysis Parwan. Thank you! :thumbsup:

Other Notes:

Reznak is allied with the Green Grace who in turn is the one who selected Hizzy as Dany's concert. It's not difficult to see why Hizzy would keep him around. Reznak helped sell Hizzy to Dany and so therefore there is an implied alliance

.

I have trouble deciding who is less trusthworthy: Reznak or Skhaz. Skahaz isn't in league with the Harpy or her sons, Reznak might be. Neither of them, IMO, care about Dany so much as they care about their own personal power. Well, I don't see them surviving Winds but I do hope we get a sense of their endgame.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think we might be arguing some of the same things? I was arguing against the vows themselves being slavish. In an idealistic setting the vows, the actual words and promises, would work. The system or world in which the characters live are flawed because it doesn't allow for the disillusioned knights to walk away once the person to whom they've sworn begins to act in a way that is not kingly or proper. But when the vow was originally given knights don't think that they've just sold themselves and I imagine that the Kings don't think they're despots.

Agree that the Dany/Jorah case is a bit more specialized, even more so because when Jorah swears, Dany is not an actual Queen (really).

The border context, as I see it, is that the vows--the actual words and ideas behind them--aren't slavish because idealistically it's based on reciprocity. But I think you and I are both in agreement that the reality is not in line with the fantasy.

We might be on the same wavelength, I'm not sure.

My issue is that the system is flawed from the beginning, even if it was originally setup to be reciprocal the fact that it has changed overtime makes it a poor system. For example if you make a machine to pack eggs but overtime it starts breaking eggs rather than packing them that means the machine is flawed regardless of what it was originally meant for.

My main problem is with the bolded part, human beings are always going to be flawed so we can't blame the society and the humans for what has come about and on the other side we can't praise the system for how it would work under an ideal world because our world and their world will never be ideal , the system is the one that should be under scrutiny considering it allows the flaws of people and society to seep into it.

Barristan I

Observations and Questions:

Missandei knows a lot, and important people realize this. When Skahaz decides to make contact with the head of the Queensguard, he reaches out to the little scribe. Selmy says that Missandei’s action was rash. I don’t think so. I think it was needed and well-informed.

Missandei still refers to herself as “this one.” Other former slaves use similar vocabulary. It’s a habit that is hard to break.

Concerning Strong Belwas, Selmy half suspects that the Blue Graces “were finishing the job those honeyed locusts had begun.” This, I believe, is the first hint about poison. The word isn’t used, but we get a strong feeling that the former pit fighter didn’t just suffer from overeating.

There is no mention of an official investigation into the events in the royal box.

There is no mention of what poison was used.

Do freedmen among the BBs follow Skahaz? In his opinion, yes. He says he has the BBs.

Selmy seems unsure about the matter.

Is Hizdahr zo Loraq just a catspaw? He’s certainly not a strong leader. That is indicated by the fact that “he sat uneasily on his new throne.” Barristan wants to know “If His Grace wishes for me to remove myself from court…” This inquiry is addressed to the seneschal, not the king. As we go on, we’ll see more reasons for considering Hizdahr a weakling.

Analysis:

The Peace

The peace is a sham and was a sham. Well, maybe not a total sham for the minority of Dany’s enemies who believed in a temporary accommodation. At any rate, the happenings at Daznak’s changed nothing of substance in this area.

The idea that the peace was originally successful isn’t convincing. The Yunkai’i, including Yurkhaz zo Yunzak, aren’t trustworthy. They are the ones who reached out to the Volantenes, and to the Dothraki. These are not actions that would be taken by people interested in peace. The Dany/Tatters view of Yurkhaz and Yezzan is the accurate one, much better than the more complimentary views held by Tyrion Lannister and Shavepate Skahaz.

In this chapter, the Shavepate refers to Yurkhaz as an “old lion.” More than a little irony in that title, right? If this so-called “lion” “honors” faithful servants by arranging to have them torn apart and devoured, then why should anyone care that he had “read his histories”? What assurance is there in the fact he realized the queen wanted peace too much? Do we have any reason to believe that he would have honored a treaty in anything more than the partial and temporary manner I referred to above (if even that)? Recall the Tattered Prince’s sarcastic comments (e.g. how the Yellow City must be “awash in tears” at the loss of its leader). I maintain that the sellsword knows a lot more about his current employers than does a Westerosi dwarf or a minor Meereenese lord.

Concerning the new enemy coming at Meereen, the Shavepate says, “The Wise Masters know. So do their friends.” That is true of the Wise Masters. It’s probably true of at least most of their friends. But exactly what do they know? Do they, for example, know the size of the Volantene fleet and all the promises made to the sellswords? It’s hard to believe that the Yunkishmen aren’t well informed. Every POV that takes place in Volantis shows the city gearing up for a major military campaign. The Yunkai’i are the ones who started the whole anti-Dany thing. They created the alliance. They have representatives in Volantis. Furthermore, the Windblown and the other mercenaries would certainly keep their employers apprised of developments. Also, the leader of the shavepates tells Barristan, “Bloodbeard…that one has no taste for peace.” Right, and who brought Bloodbeard into this deal? If the “lion” didn’t hire the sellsword and his company, then he allowed his underlings to do so.

Being generous, one could say that Hizdahr the businessman might have some idea that the Volantenes could be dealt with, more likely bought off. But he’d think this only because he was unaware of the impossibly high price that would be required. It could be that Yurkhaz (or, more likely, Yezzan) encouraged King Wimp in the belief that an agreement could last until Queen Daenerys departed for the western continent. Would any Yunkish leader himself have had confidence that things would hold together for even that long? Probably not.

No one informed the Targaryen forces about any of this. Barristan says, “Daenerys must be told.” A better question would have been, “Why weren’t we given any info before now?” I don’t blame the knight much for not asking that question. He is stunned by the news. And it wouldn’t matter much anyway. It would come to the same thing—war. If Selmy had analyzed Skahaz’s statement carefully, however, he would have seen it as worthless. “The pit changed all.” What could that mean? The former commander of the Kingsguard wouldn’t believe that Drogon’s arrival and the queen’s departure would have suddenly launched an enemy fleet. There is no possibility of a causal connection. Military preparations take time. If the Volantenes are on their way, they started getting ready a good while ago, back during the time when the dragon queen was agreeing to the marriage, saying that the Yellow City could continue slaving, etc. Clearly, Dany’s foes have not been operating in an honest manner. There was a lot of bad faith in the negotiations.

That brings up another important issue. How long has Skahaz known about Volantis?

Skahaz mo Kandaq

What is the deal with Skahaz? He isn’t the Harpy. He could be the person responsible for the poisoning, but it would be a strange move. Actually, the whole damn thing is strange, no matter who did it. Poisoning a bunch of locusts that anyone (or perhaps no one) would eat—that’s not a very skillful assassination attempt. In real world terms, it was not similar to, say, hiring a professional hit man, more like an amateur terrorist attack, lobbing a grenade into a crowd or something like that.

It appears that Skahaz would have to be simultaneously skillful and clumsy. He has maintained power despite being dismissed from his official position. He can come and go as he wants in the great pyramid. He has spies in the enemy camps. Some readers assert that he is playing Ser Barristan.* On the other hand, we have the strangeness of the locust business. I also question the timing of his announcement about the Volantene fleet. If he has known about the situation in Volantis for some time, he should have told Daenerys. That not only would have been his duty, it would have been to his advantage. Perhaps he only got the news a bit before he gave it to Ser Barristan. That seems contrived to me. Dany flies away on a dragon. Then the Shavepate’s foreign intelligence operation improves.

Lord Commander Barristan Selmy

Barristan Selmy is a decent fellow. More importantly, he is a symbol and an indicator. I have made this argument a few times before. Some people have grasped the point.

Barristan has more political ability than some give him credit for. He certainly has insight. He knows the king’s situation. He values Missandei and works with her. It’s true that his “the people of Westeros are waiting for you” comments made to Dany seem naive. I don’t think he fully believed them though. I think they were attempts to get the queen to move in “the right direction.”

I view the commander’s dark thoughts as symptomatic of his society. He and others can be legitimately accused of doing their duty too well. Selmy doesn’t interpret the phrase properly though.

The legitimate accusation would be grounded in a fundamental fact: The fault is not in the oath taker. It is in the oath. A significant problem with Barristan Selmy and men like him is that they fail to see this. When one partner in an agreement (an underling) is required to do all kinds of things, and the other side (a monarch or perhaps a high lord) is not required to do anything, then we have a “contract” in only the narrowest, least meaningful, and least worthy sense of the word. Who in the Seven Kingdoms realizes this? Essentially, no one—not Barristan Selmy, not Ned Stark, not Sandor Clegane, not Davos Seaworth, and no, not Jaime Lannister. **

In all, Lord Commander Barristan Selmy can be seen, indeed just about has to be seen, as the image of the honorable knight as viewed by Baratheons, Starks, Lannisters, and every other house. This, I maintain, is a central feature of ASoIaF. Sure, you can apply some tar to the guy. When you do this though, you can’t avoid spreading that tar widely, and I do mean widely. There is no legitimate way of protecting Stannis Baratheon, Sansa Stark, or anyone else. In the current chapter, Ser Barristan thinks of how hard the keeping of his vows has been at times. He wonders about blood on his hands. He doesn’t think about his status in the Seven Kingdoms. This is an aspect of things often ignored in posts on these forums. Who accuses Ser Barristan Selmy of being a hypocrite or of failing to act correctly when he accepted Robert’s pardon? A good many posters do this. In the story, no character does this. Who sees the man as the essence of honor, the sort of person a knight should be? The text indicates that just about everyone in the 7K thinks this way.

.................................................................

* I’ll discuss these matters more thoroughly in Barristan II.

** It’s true that there are contracts, or at least deals, in the sense of “passing out goodies.” Lord Baelish helps the Lannisters in the matter of the succession. The Lannisters give Baelish lands and titles.

Very nice analysis Parwan.

This chapter once again proves that Meereen is not full of mustache twirling villains and that the author actually took his time to make a relevant plot rather than the general assumption that the Meereenese plot is just filler or being used to set Dany up as a villain.

The chapter is full of political intrigue and even Barristan claims its more of a viper's pit then Kings Landing.

The peace was definitely a sham. Even if the Yunkish didn't break it I'm pretty sure Dany would end up breaking up. I agree, anyone that claims the "peace was real" Isn't paying attention to the arc properly. I used to think along those lines before the re-read but my views have changed

The more I read on, the more I believe Shakaz is the one that poisoned the locusts, observing the situation it seems that any of the outcomes would be in his favour if his main goal was to convince Dany or anyone in power that "Hizdahr's peaces wasn't real" then it would work as long as anyone ate the locusts.

Other things I saw in this chapter

1. Earlier I stated that it wouldn't make sense for Hizdahr to have poisoned the locusts because Dany dying or even being hurt in anyway could affect the power he has and I believe this chapter re-confirms that.

Hizdahr zo Loraq sat uneasily on his new throne. It had been a thousand years since Meereen last had a king, and there were some even amongst the old blood who thought they might have made a better choice than him.

Without Dany Hizdahr loses alot of his power, and given his previous conversations with Dany I believe he is politically savvy enough to realize this. If the Green GRace is working with him I believe she will also realise this.

It was also great to see that the unsullied made their own choices.

Grey Worm had informed the king that they were free men who took commands only from their mother.

[illrede]

In this chapter, the Shavepate refers to Yurkhaz as an “old lion.” More than a little irony in that title, right? If this so-called “lion” “honors” faithful servants by arranging to have them torn apart and devoured, then why should anyone care that he had “read his histories”? What assurance is there in the fact he realized the queen wanted peace too much? Do we have any reason to believe that he would have honored a treaty in anything more than the partial and temporary manner I referred to above (if even that)? Recall the Tattered Prince’s sarcastic comments (e.g. how the Yellow City must be “awash in tears” at the loss of its leader). I maintain that the sellsword knows a lot more about his current employers than does a Westerosi dwarf or a minor Meereenese lord.

Well, he'd know he wants this wrapped up before the Volentenes show up and start projecting power and influence, for one. He would also be leery about long-term Yunkish control of Mereen meaning anything for somebody that sits his pyramid in Yunkai. Yurkhaz has won outright, from his lights. Pure brinkmanship, done with hollow legions. He wants to get off this ride, because unlike the clanker-lords, he knows better. In addition to that Bloodbeard's priorities and Yurkhaz's do not intersect at all; Bloodbeard wants blood and a payday; Yurkhaz wanted to have the war that started with the first sack of Astapor to end in a master's victory, and as of the day he entered the Pit, he'd done that, and that with a bad hand.

I think you have to understand that slaves don't matter. Slaves lives don't matter. Any action regarding a slave has no moral weight whatsoever because slaves don't matter and slaves are not entities afforded human consideration here. There are no agreements with slaves. You cannot break faith with a slave, as you cannot deal with slaves in good faith beyond putting on an affectation. A slave's life exchanged for a chuckle is a net gain for the world if the master so determines because a slaves life has no value beyond what a master affords it. So Yurkhaz's treatment of slaves does not signify as to Yurkhaz's mind and policies. That's slavery.

[Parwan]

Well, he'd know he wants this wrapped up before the Volentenes show up and start projecting power and influence, for one. He would also be leery about long-term Yunkish control of Mereen meaning anything for somebody that sits his pyramid in Yunkai. Yurkhaz has won outright, from his lights. Pure brinkmanship, done with hollow legions. He wants to get off this ride, because unlike the clanker-lords, he knows better. In addition to that Bloodbeard's priorities and Yurkhaz's do not intersect at all; Bloodbeard wants blood and a payday; Yurkhaz wanted to have the war that started with the first sack of Astapor to end in a master's victory, and as of the day he entered the Pit, he'd done that, and that with a bad hand.

...

Was Yurkhaz the leader of the Yunkai'i or not? The text says that he was. The Yunkai'i brought the Volantenes into the war. If the leader of the Yellow City wanted everything wrapped up before the Volantenes arrived, why did he bring them in on the deal in the first place? If Bloodbeard's priorities conflicted with his, why is Bloodbeard part of the alliance? Finally, how could Yurkhaz think that things would be wrapped up? You have a huge fleet bearing down on you. Onboard, there are soldiers of an old city that quite possibly wants to renew its glory. (See SeanF's thoughts on this matter.) There are also sellsword companies who have been promised lots of loot. What did the so-called "lion" think he was going to do when the fleet arrived? Was he just going to say, "Sorry boys, the business is done; you can go back home now"? I think we can imagine what they would have told him.

[illrede]

Was Yurkhaz the leader of the Yunkai'i or not? The text says that he was. The Yunkai'i brought the Volantenes into the war. If the leader of the Yellow City wanted everything wrapped up before the Volantenes arrived, why did he bring them in on the deal in the first place? If Bloodbeard's priorities conflicted with his, why is Bloodbeard part of the alliance? Finally, how could Yurkhaz think that things would be wrapped up? You have a huge fleet bearing down on you. Onboard, there are soldiers of an old city that quite possibly wants to renew its glory. (See SeanF's thoughts on this matter.) There are also sellsword companies who have been promised lots of loot. What did the so-called "lion" think he was going to do when the fleet arrived? Was he just going to say, "Sorry boys, the business is done; you can go back home now"? I think we can imagine what they would have told him.

Because losing is worse. If Volantis would have made the difference between winning and losing, he'd be in his right mind to crawl all the way down the demon road to beg them to intervene. Dothraki the same. But Yunkish victory conditions were fairly obvious (The slave regime in Astapor annihilated, Mereen no longer a revolutionary power, Daenerys no longer a revolutionary chieftain(ess)), and once they were met, it was time to end the war. He's going to have to mollify Volantis. He's going to have to pay off sellswords and Dothraki. That is an acceptable problem. It might not even be his problem. Furthering that Daenerys hadn't yet been backed into a corner; a Volentene fleet may yet get dragons unleashed on it; the Ghiscari could decamp their plague-zone and leave them to it.

Yunkai threw the kitchen sink at Mereen, they didn't need it all, and their leader achieved his objectives before a lot of it even landed.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Reading this chapter and think.. "why hasn't Dany burnt all of this fuckers yet?".

The title of this chapter is intriguing. "The Queensguard" yet Barry isn't really QG is he? There is no Queen and even the so-called King doesn't want Barry to protect him, preferring Meereenese warriors. The chapter titles are tinged with the same ironic flavor as Quentyn's but instead of being in mockery, these are rather sad. The QG is without a Queen.

He guards the Queen's legacy =(

[MoIaF]

Announcement

As we reach the end of the Dany re-read :bawl: we're starting to get re-read withdrawal. So, in order to treat our impending ailment Queen Alysanne and I have decided that we need to embark on another re-read.

"The Winged Wolf" The Bran Stark Re-read Project!

If you are interested in participating (chapter analysis) please PM me and let me know. :cheers:

I'll be working on chapter assignment.

We are aiming to start the re-read by November 2nd.

Here are the chapter:

AGOT

Prologue

Bran I

Bran II

Bran III

Bran IV

Bran V

Bran VI

Bran VII

ACOK

Bran I

Bran II

Bran III

Bran IV

Bran V

Bran VI

Bran VII

ASOS

Bran I

Bran II

Bran III

Bran IV

ADWD

Bran I

Bran II

Bran III

[MoIaF]

Grey Worm had informed the king that they were free men who took commands only from their mother.

I loved this part. I've hear many mention that the Unsullied stayed with Dany because they had no other recourse, that they didn't understand their freedom. Here we get to see that they understand it well and that they follow Dany because they believe in her. It's her cause they support. We get to see how truly free they are.

[MoIaF]

New Thread!

The re-read project had reached it 6th thread, yay! Here is the link: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115603-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-part-v-adwd/