Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD

[HexMachina]

Tyrion and Jorah certainly. Marwyn...hmm. I think it depends it how good Dany's memory is. If this Marwyn is indeed the same Marwyn MMD spoke of in aGoT, she might not receive him well at all.

Hmm, I disagree. Despite her other flaws, I think Dany is capable of accepting Marwyn. I don't think she would shun him just because many years ago he taught MMD something and years later MMD betrayed her. SHe might be wary, but I think she would listen

[SeanF]

Ok, let's say she burns the Harpy (GG). Can we make an argument that burning is just her preferred method of execution? When Mel and Stannis do it, it's a sacrifice for the gods--but the only thing the ones being burned have done wrong is not acknowledge the Lord of Light. The GG has actively been working against Dany in Meereen, murdering (or at least ordering the murder) of Dany's citizens. To take this to Westeros, most people on the forum seem to agree that Tywin was right to kill the Lord Rayne of Castamere, but where he went too far is in killing every last member of the house, root and stem. Ned never gets grief for killing the Night's Watch man in the very first chapter of aGoT because it was the right course of action; the man was an oath breaker. So if Dany does burn the Harpy alive, is she justified in doing so because it just happens to be her preferred method of execution? I think I know what most of us here in the re-read project would say, but I do wonder how it will come across to people who don't participate in this.

All of Stannis and Mel's victims have been condemned criminals. They aren't burned for being non-believers.

[MoIaF]

Ok, let's say she burns the Harpy (GG). Can we make an argument that burning is just her preferred method of execution? When Mel and Stannis do it, it's a sacrifice for the gods--but the only thing the ones being burned have done wrong is not acknowledge the Lord of Light. The GG has actively been working against Dany in Meereen, murdering (or at least ordering the murder) of Dany's citizens. To take this to Westeros, most people on the forum seem to agree that Tywin was right to kill the Lord Rayne of Castamere, but where he went too far is in killing every last member of the house, root and stem. Ned never gets grief for killing the Night's Watch man in the very first chapter of aGoT because it was the right course of action; the man was an oath breaker. So if Dany does burn the Harpy alive, is she justified in doing so because it just happens to be her preferred method of execution? I think I know what most of us here in the re-read project would say, but I do wonder how it will come across to people who don't participate in this.

I agree with you and like you I do wonder how it would be perceived. I'm not against her executing her enemies, this is the middle ages that's how you deal with your enemies. The method is horrific but so is beheading by sword which unlike the books can't be done with one swing. It takes many. However, I imagine that burning by dragons (which is how she'll do it if she does) would be quite quick given the power of the dragon fire. Like in my mind I imagine instant burning.

Anywho, back to the topic.

I Don't think people in Westeros will be against Dany using her dragons in war for burning enemies. They all know the field of fire, Harrenhal and the Dance with dragons, dragons have been used in war for quite a while, I think there is a difference between using a dragon for war and burning people to the stake.

Yes, I think you are right about this. The actual burning is just par for the course as it is her weapon of choice when doing her waring. She just so happens to have a weapon unlike any other. I also agree that it is very different to use a dragon in war and to use dragon burning as a sacrifice.

If Dany does burn anyone for "the Lord of Light" I think it will be much like Stannis in the early days when he didn't really believe in Mel's powers and simply did it to keep her happy. I agree that there may be some burnings, especially of her enemies. The more I think on it, the more I think the Green Grace may go the way of MMD.

However, this all assumes Dany will return to Meereen and Moqorro will still be there. That is by no means a certainty. And by the time she does, she may also have some wiser councillors, e.g. Marwyn, Tyrion, Jorah.

I suppose the problem I'm having is in reconciling Dany's disdain for the red religion and what appears to be her future embracing of the Dothraki STMTW and then having her turn around and even superficially go along with the red priest.

To my mind she's going to be like the old Targaryen you follow me or things might not go so well for you. She'll expect people to follow her, not her follow anyone.

[BearQueen87]

All of Stannis and Mel's victims have been condemned criminals. They aren't burned for being non-believers.

Did I mix up show and books? Ack! Sorry. :dunce:

However, my question about method of execution still stands because while Stannis' and Mel's victims may be criminals there is a religious element to it, yes? Remove that for Dany, is it justifiable for her to burn people alive as her preferred method of execution.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Tyrion and Jorah certainly. Marwyn...hmm. I think it depends it how good Dany's memory is. If this Marwyn is indeed the same Marwyn MMD spoke of in aGoT, she might not receive him well at all.

Maybe. The dragons do cause a lot of destruction. I don't know that the people of Westeros are going to appreciate fields of fire and having their homes, towns, and possibly children burned. Yes, that's how Targaryens go to war, but it also hasn't happened in a little over a hundred years, and no one in Westeros has ever seen a dragon. They've become myths, but if the myth comes to life and kills all your crops, you might wish they had stayed a myth.

That said, she will absolutely use them (and should) to hopefully make quick work of a war that might drag on for ages, and perhaps be more deadly, if she were to just use soldiers.

I definitely believe they are destructive, I agree. I was talking more in terms of the comparison between using them for war vs Stannis and Aerys using fire to burn people. Dragons are just another weapon in war whiles Aerys and Stannis use of fire is to burn people during peace times.

[SeanF]

Did I mix up show and books? Ack! Sorry. :dunce:

However, my question about method of execution still stands because while Stannis' and Mel's victims may be criminals there is a religious element to it, yes? Remove that for Dany, is it justifiable for her to burn people alive as her preferred method of execution.

There's a good thread "A Frank Discussion About Burning People Alive" which gives the pros and cons.

[Parwan]

There is another factor to consider when we think about Dany's reception of Moqorro and his religion. Remember this?

"'Khaleesi,' he pleaded, 'you must not do this thing. Let me kill this maegi.'"

and

"'This is bloodmagic,' he said. 'It is forbidden.'"

I don't know that the Dothraki believe the work of the red priests to be blood magic. However, some of it seems pretty similar to me, e.g. human sacrifice for the purpose of getting favorable winds. I'm sure that the nomads, probably including Dany's bloodriders, are familiar with the worship of R'hllor. I doubt that they have a high regard for it. Will they warn Daenerys against Moqorro just as they warned her against MMD? That's a possibility.

[BearQueen87]

There is another factor to consider when we think about Dany's reception of Moqorro and his religion. Remember this?

"'Khaleesi,' he pleaded, 'you must not do this thing. Let me kill this maegi.'"

and

"'This is bloodmagic,' he said. 'It is forbidden.'"

I don't know that the Dothraki believe the work of the red priests to be blood magic. However, some of it seems pretty similar to me, e.g. human sacrifice for the purpose of getting favorable winds. I'm sure that the nomads, probably including Dany's bloodriders, are familiar with the worship of R'hllor. I doubt that they have a high regard for it. Will they warn Daenerys against Moqorro just as they warned her against MMD? That's a possibility.

Good point. And I hope Dany strongly considers listening to them this time around--and she may well if the Dothraki are going to play as big a role as GRRM keeps saying in Winds.

But, just to play Devil's Advocate, the very last thing Jorah says to Dany before she enters the House of the Undying is, "Remember Mirri Maz Durr." Dany's response: "I do. And I remember that she had knowledge." Now the HotU was a bit of a disaster but the experience of it hasn't stopped Dany from believing strongly in the visions and prophecies she got from them. So she meets a Red Priest and is wary but he can see into the flames and heel the sick. There's a chance that her desire for knowledge will come back into this and she'll want to hear what he has to say.

[HexMachina]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115696-spoilers-twoiaf-reading-at-loncon-today/page-2

Fresh off the press. LonCon reading of the Sons of the Dragon that will be included in Fire and Blood. There is at least one relevant comparison there, and may be others so I thought i would drop it here. Something immediately.jumped out (only read a smapl part so far):

Aenys naively refused to use his dragons and the Faith perceived him as weak.

Ringing any bells? ;)

[BearQueen87]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115696-spoilers-twoiaf-reading-at-loncon-today/page-2

Fresh off the press. LonCon reading of the Sons of the Dragon that will be included in Fire and Blood. There is at least one relevant comparison there, and may be others so I thought i would drop it here. Something immediately.jumped out (only read a smapl part so far):

Aenys naively refused to use his dragons and the Faith perceived him as weak.

Ringing any bells? ;)

Very interesting. I'll bet you dollars to donuts Tyrion knows this story. And I'll bet you even more than it's coming up as a reading now because it plays into Winds.

[Parwan]

So her fault lies not with her ability to rule but in how she reacts to those who would oppose her?

The two things are not mutually exclusive. Characteristically, Dany doesn't think things through well enough, and this often, but not always, involves dealing with enemies. Her departure from Astapor was a poor move. This involved 1. not seeing that she was leaving friends in a bad position, and 2. starting on a poorly conceived idea of marching through hostile land about which she had inadequate information. The main problem in Meereen is given in the underlined part above.

Among the things that Daenerys Targaryen should not be blamed for are destroying the economy and acting as a cultural imperialist.

[HexMachina]

Ok, let's say she burns the Harpy (GG). Can we make an argument that burning is just her preferred method of execution? ....So if Dany does burn the Harpy alive, is she justified in doing so because it just happens to be her preferred method of execution?

There is, in all honesty, no way to kill someone mercifully. There are those who count it no crime to drown an imperfect newborn in warm water, as if the infant will not struggle desperately to draw air into its lungs. Did it not try to breathe it would not drown. But they do not hear the screams nor feel the darkening of the mind that the child endures, so they have been merciful. To themselves. This is true of most ‘mercy killings’. The best an assassin can do is create a setting in which he does not have to witness the pain he causes. Ah, you will say, but what of drugs and poisons that send a man into a deep sleep from which he never emerges? Perhaps, but I doubt it. I suspect that some part of the victim knows. The body knows it is being murdered, and it keeps few secrets from the mind. The strangler, the suffocator, the exsanguinator may all claim that their victims did not suffer. They lie. All they may truly say is that the victim’s suffering was invisible to them. And no one returns to say they were wrong.

[BearQueen87]

There is, in all honesty, no way to kill someone mercifully. There are those who count it no crime to drown an imperfect newborn in warm water, as if the infant will not struggle desperately to draw air into its lungs. Did it not try to breathe it would not drown. But they do not hear the screams nor feel the darkening of the mind that the child endures, so they have been merciful. To themselves. This is true of most ‘mercy killings’. The best an assassin can do is create a setting in which he does not have to witness the pain he causes. Ah, you will say, but what of drugs and poisons that send a man into a deep sleep from which he never emerges? Perhaps, but I doubt it. I suspect that some part of the victim knows. The body knows it is being murdered, and it keeps few secrets from the mind. The strangler, the suffocator, the exsanguinator may all claim that their victims did not suffer. They lie. All they may truly say is that the victim’s suffering was invisible to them. And no one returns to say they were wrong.

I agree quite a bit with this sentiment as it pertains to the real world (Robin Hobb?). Absolutely. But in the world of ASOIAF where sometimes rulers do have to perform executions we have a variety, do we not? Burning, beheading, flaying, crucifixion, drowning, hanging ect. MoIaF pointed out that not even the swiftest form, beheading, is clean because it can often take several blows to the neck to kill the person. I don't have answer to the question posed, but rather just wondering about in theory. If Dany uses Drogon, let's say, to burn her enemies alive as a form of execution, could it be said that it's no different than lopping off a head with a sword?

I read over the "frank discussion about burning people alive" thread Sean F pointed me to. I think burning is a terrible way to kill someone, and if I had my choice (should I ever be guilty of a crime) I'd probably take beheading with a Valyrain steal sword. Not to jump ahead but we do know of someone who was burned alive and it was not quick.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115696-spoilers-twoiaf-reading-at-loncon-today/page-2

Fresh off the press. LonCon reading of the Sons of the Dragon that will be included in Fire and Blood. There is at least one relevant comparison there, and may be others so I thought i would drop it here. Something immediately.jumped out (only read a smapl part so far):

Aenys naively refused to use his dragons and the Faith perceived him as weak.

Ringing any bells? ;)

Thanks for the link, and that indeed sounds like his descendant over 200 years later :P

[SeanF]

I agree quite a bit with this sentiment as it pertains to the real world (Robin Hobb?). Absolutely. But in the world of ASOIAF where sometimes rulers do have to perform executions we have a variety, do we not? Burning, beheading, flaying, crucifixion, drowning, hanging ect. MoIaF pointed out that not even the swiftest form, beheading, is clean because it can often take several blows to the neck to kill the person. I don't have answer to the question posed, but rather just wondering about in theory. If Dany uses Drogon, let's say, to burn her enemies alive as a form of execution, could it be said that it's no different than lopping off a head with a sword?

I read over the "frank discussion about burning people alive" thread Sean F pointed me to. I think burning is a terrible way to kill someone, and if I had my choice (should I ever be guilty of a crime) I'd probably take

beheading with a Valyrain steal sword. Not to jump ahead but we do know of someone who was burned alive and it was not quick.

Beheading with a Valyrian steel longsword is probably the most humane method of execution we've seen. Even if the head isn't removed in one go, the blow from the sword will render the victim unconscious.

There's plenty of textual evidence that death by burning is considered in-universe to be a very harsh punishment.

[BearQueen87]

Beheading with a Valyrian steel longsword is probably the most humane method of execution we've seen. Even if the head isn't removed in one go, the blow from the sword will render the victim unconscious.

There's plenty of textual evidence that death by burning is considered in-universe to be a very harsh punishment.

So what's the sliding scale of execution? Beheading by Valyrian steel longsword being the "best" method. And do we take into account being burned alive in a cage over a human made fire (a la Mel) vs being burned alive by a dragon's fire which is probably much hotter and a direct source of flame to the human body?

[SeanF]

So what's the sliding scale of execution? Beheading by Valyrian steel longsword being the "best" method. And do we take into account being burned alive in a cage over a human made fire (a la Mel) vs being burned alive by a dragon's fire which is probably much hotter and a direct source of flame to the human body?

If you were burned by Balerion, you'd be dead in an instant. Being burned by a very young dragon is likely to be much more painful, as we'll see. Being burned in a cage is more like being baked - a horrific death.

[SeanF]

Thanks for the link, and that indeed sounds like his descendant over 200 years later :P

There are parts of Dany's character that correspond to each of Aenys, Maegor, and Jahaerys and Queen Alysane. She has to find the right balance between them.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

There are parts of Dany's character that correspond to each of Aenys, Maegor, and Jahaerys and Queen Alysane. She has to find the right balance between them.

:agree:

[BearQueen87]

If you were burned by Balerion, you'd be dead in an instant. Being burned by a very young dragon is likely to be much more painful, as we'll see. Being burned in a cage is more like being baked - a horrific death.

Yeah that's basically what I was thinking and getting at. So if Dany did choose to use adult dragon as her method of execution then it might the rough equivalent of a Valyrian steel longsword. And maybe in the place of an adult dragon, she could all three to simulate adult dragon.

There are parts of Dany's character that correspond to each of Aenys, Maegor, and Jahaerys and Queen Alysane. She has to find the right balance between them.

I agree.