Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD

[HexMachina]

I agree quite a bit with this sentiment as it pertains to the real world (Robin Hobb?).

Yep. I read it today and thought to myself; wait a second. Weren't we just discussing methods of execution? This seems somewhat relevant to that. (I've cried twice at the book, just to add...)

Absolutely. But in the world of ASOIAF where sometimes rulers do have to perform executions we have a variety, do we not? Burning, beheading, flaying, crucifixion, drowning, hanging ect. MoIaF pointed out that not even the swiftest form, beheading, is clean because it can often take several blows to the neck to kill the person. I don't have answer to the question posed, but rather just wondering about in theory. If Dany uses Drogon, let's say, to burn her enemies alive as a form of execution, could it be said that it's no different than lopping off a head with a sword?

I read over the "frank discussion about burning people alive" thread Sean F pointed me to. I think burning is a terrible way to kill someone, and if I had my choice (should I ever be guilty of a crime) I'd probably take beheading with a Valyrain steal sword. Not to jump ahead but we do know of someone who was burned alive and it was not quick.

I agree that the Valyrian steel sword is still the "cleanest" way to execute someone. I'm not a fan of death as a punishment in any case (but that's a stone best left unturned...) but it seems to be the method that gives way to the least suffering. I imagine its quite psychologically damaging though, the feeling of the cold steel on your neck and knowing that in just seconds that steel will swing down and shear through skin, muscle and bone.

[Nictarion]

All of Stannis and Mel's victims have been condemned criminals. They aren't burned for being non-believers.

Guncer Sunglass was burned for religious reasons. His only crime was refusing to follow Stannis after Mel had the sept destroyed.

[Parwan]

Good point. And I hope Dany strongly considers listening to them this time around--and she may well if the Dothraki are going to play as big a role as GRRM keeps saying in Winds.

But, just to play Devil's Advocate, the very last thing Jorah says to Dany before she enters the House of the Undying is, "Remember Mirri Maz Durr." Dany's response: "I do. And I remember that she had knowledge." Now the HotU was a bit of a disaster but the experience of it hasn't stopped Dany from believing strongly in the visions and prophecies she got from them. So she meets a Red Priest and is wary but he can see into the flames and heel the sick. There's a chance that her desire for knowledge will come back into this and she'll want to hear what he has to say.

That is some interesting advocacy.

The term "execution" does not cover the topic we've been discussing. Victarion does not execute the seven girls from the Willing Maiden. I don' think it's accurate to say that Daenerys executed Mirri Maz Duur. Did Stannis Baratheon execute the Peasebury men? Only in a very thin and hollow sense. What took place by that northern lake could be called a judicial proceeding in about the same sense that a black mass held in a town hall could be called a city council meeting. Read the chapter entitled "The Sacrifice" again (significant title, right?). There is no mention of the laws of the realm, the king's peace, etc. The queen's men sing as the unfortunate "offerings" scream. (Singing is significant here too, isn't it?) Victarion refers to the feeding of the red god. That is an ugly and apt phrase that appears more than once in the text. Ser Godry and company say they are praising their god. But should the entity they are praising be called a god? Isn't there a better term we can employ?

In ASoIaF, we can't distinguish between different lethal events solely on the basis of a scale which goes from most to least humane. Intensity and duration of pain are not the only matters meriting analysis. There are times when people aren't just killed, they are used. When the followers of a religion, cult, coven, or other such organization use human beings for some purpose, can that purpose be good? It appears that King Stannis has turned his criminal justice system over to a bunch of demon worshippers. Could the same thing happen with Queen Daenerys? I don't think that's impossible.

[BearQueen87]

That is some interesting advocacy.

The term "execution" does not cover the topic we've been discussing. Victarion does not execute the seven girls from the Willing Maiden. I don' think it's accurate to say that Daenerys executed Mirri Maz Duur. Did Stannis Baratheon execute the Peasebury men? Only in a very thin and hollow sense. What took place by that northern lake could be called a judicial proceeding in about the same sense that a black mass held in a town hall could be called a city council meeting. Read the chapter entitled "The Sacrifice" again (significant title, right?). There is no mention of the laws of the realm, the king's peace, etc. The queen's men sing as the unfortunate "offerings" scream. (Singing is significant here too, isn't it?) Victarion refers to the feeding of the red god. That is an ugly and apt phrase that appears more than once in the text. Ser Godry and company say they are praising their god. But should the entity they are praising be called a god? Isn't there a better term we can employ?

In ASoIaF, we can't distinguish between different lethal events solely on the basis of a scale which goes from most to least humane. Intensity and duration of pain are not the only matters meriting analysis. There are times when people aren't just killed, they are used. When the followers of a religion, cult, coven, or other such organization use human beings for some purpose, can that purpose be good? It appears that King Stannis has turned his criminal justice system over to a bunch of demon worshippers. Could the same thing happen with Queen Daenerys? I don't think that's impossible.

The idea of calling the Red God and His followers demon worshipers is problematic for me. There are definitely practices of the Red God that make me uncomfortable, like burning people alive. But the religion of the Red God is not alone in this type of sacrifice; Bran's vision inside the cave with Bloodraven shows that perhaps the First Men practiced human sacrifice; the Drowned God asks that his followers be drowned fully and while they are brought back it sometimes happens that they cannot be revived. The Dothraki may not offer up humans (so far as we know), but they do have blood rituals such as killing a stallion and asking a pregnant mother to feast on its heart. So my problem is 1) I'm not sure the Red God actually exists in universe any more so than the Seven, the Horse God, The Drowned God, the Storm God (the Old gods are a different matter but are not GOD as we might define it) so defining Him as demonic would suggest that we have evidence that he exists and is evil and 2) the people of these religions, including the Red God, do not see Him/Them as such--they understand this to be God (capital G).

In fact the religion of the Red God has a demon in it's mythology but it's not the Red God, it's the Great Other. So for us to call R'hllor a demon, and his followers demon worshipers, is our own subjective interpretation of how we view their practices as "wrong." So for people in universe the idea of feeding the Red God isn't wrong or problematic, it's simply the nature of their religion (and if you want to draw a historical parallel here, check out how the Greeks talk about animal sacrifice in the first chapter of the Iliad, the idea of the meat and smoke being enticing to the gods of Olympus and is a form of nourishment---do we call them evil or simply culturally different?)

So, going back to Dany, I would find it problematic that she would offer people up in sacrifice via burning because the idea of burning in general makes me nervous. But I don't think it's probable for a few reasons I stated over the past few pages about why Dany won't be go through to a conversion to the Red God and His religion. If Dany burns people alive it won't be to "use" them to appease this higher power and she will not attach the Red God to the burning at all. Moqorro might, but that's not him not Dany.

[SeanF]

Martin is toying with his readers (as ever). At the end of AGOT, he leads us to believe that Dany is performing a just and righteous act, by burning Mirri alive, and hatching her dragons.

Then we see Stannis and Melisandre burning people alive, and it evokes dismay.

Later, we get the reactions from Asha and Jon, who think live burning is disgusting.

There doesn't seem to be any concept of black magic, in-universe. There is magic, and that's it. But, burning people alive to generate a particular magical outcome must be a dark form of magic.

[SeanF]

There may be no god, or gods, in-universe, but there is clearly great magical power that can be tapped, by means of human sacrifice, particularly sacrifice by burning.

[BearQueen87]

There may be no god, or gods, in-universe, but there is clearly great magical power that can be tapped, by means of human sacrifice, particularly sacrifice by burning.

Clearly, yes. But I don't think we can assign any sort of morality to it--good or bad. It's just there to be used if you know how. And to people in universe, feeding this source, which they have called "god" is simply a way to tap it for what they perceive to be good.

[Parwan]

I. The idea of calling the Red God and His followers demon worshipers is problematic for me. There are definitely practices of the Red God that make me uncomfortable, like burning people alive. But the religion of the Red God is not alone in this type of sacrifice; Bran's vision inside the cave with Bloodraven shows that perhaps the First Men practiced human sacrifice; the Drowned God asks that his followers be drowned fully and while they are brought back it sometimes happens that they cannot be revived. The Dothraki may not offer up humans (so far as we know), but they do have blood rituals such as killing a stallion and asking a pregnant mother to feast on its heart. So my problem is 1) I'm not sure the Red God actually exists in universe any more so than the Seven, the Horse God, The Drowned God, the Storm God (the Old gods are a different matter but are not GOD as we might define it) so defining Him as demonic would suggest that we have evidence that he exists and is evil and 2) the people of these religions, including the Red God, do not see Him/Them as such--they understand this to be God (capital G).

II. n fact the religion of the Red God has a demon in it's mythology but it's not the Red God, it's the Great Other. So for us to call R'hllor a demon, and his followers demon worshipers, is our own subjective interpretation of how we view their practices as "wrong." So for people in universe the idea of feeding the Red God isn't wrong or problematic,

III. it's simply the nature of their religion (and if you want to draw a historical parallel here, check out how the Greeks talk about animal sacrifice in the first chapter of the Iliad, the idea of the meat and smoke being enticing to the gods of Olympus and is a form of nourishment---do we call them evil or simply culturally different?)

IV. So, going back to Dany, I would find it problematic that she would offer people up in sacrifice via burning because the idea of burning in general makes me nervous. But I don't think it's probable for a few reasons I stated over the past few pages about why Dany won't be go through to a conversion to the Red God and His religion. If Dany burns people alive it won't be to "use" them to appease this higher power and she will not attach the Red God to the burning at all. Moqorro might, but that's not him not Dany.

I. I don't call all of the worshippers of the red god demon worshippers. There do seem to be different sects, and no one can deny that there are different practitioners. Thoros is obviously not Melisandre. I do suggest that some practices, of whatever religion, can be called into question. I'm not alone in this. People in-universe maintain that some "gods" are actually devils and some acts of "worship" are evil. Most people, in our world or in Planetos, would say that Craster's offerings to "the real gods" were evil acts. Ser Godry and his friends may not rank with Craster, but I'm not convinced that they are far above him. People who believe in gods are properly called worshippers, even if the gods don't exist. If the sorts of sacrifices these people engage in are sufficiently repulsive, then it's not too much to wonder if this does not constitute demon worship, even if demons don't exist.

II. To me, R'hllor and the Great Other often seem to be the two different faces of one coin. This may not be the best interpretation, but it is a plausible one. Again, the plausibility of this conjecture does not depend on the existence of either entity. It depends upon the statements and actions of the practitioners. There are people in-universe, Asha Greyjoy for example, who see the feeding of the red god as wrong.

Whether there is such a thing as objective morality is a very large question. It is related to--

III. cultural relativity. We could spend a lot of time here, and get well off the main subjects of this thread. I say that rejecting the idea of using human beings as things is at least a reasonable attempt at a universal principle. Using humans as food is certainly repellant to most people. There are situations where someone may be forced to do it. If you are starving, and if your leaders are consuming most of the available food, your hunger may drive you to do things you normally wouldn't even consider. But the concept of "feeding" men to a "god" is more than just problematic to me. I think it is more than just problematic to most residents of Martin's world.

IV I don't think that it's probable that Dany will indulge in human sacrifice again. It is, however, possible that she will at least get involved in it. Stannis himself does not burn anyone. I don't think that he is an inherently evil person. I maintain, however, that he has allowed some of his followers to go too far.

Martin is toying with his readers (as ever). At the end of AGOT, he leads us to believe that Dany is performing a just and righteous act, by burning Mirri alive, and hatching her dragons.

Then we see Stannis and Melisandre burning people alive, and it evokes dismay.

Later, we get the reactions from Asha and Jon, who think live burning is disgusting.

There doesn't seem to be any concept of black magic, in-universe. There is magic, and that's it. But, burning people alive to generate a particular magical outcome must be a dark form of magic.

Yeah, "toying with his readers" is not a bad way of putting it.

For me, there are some important problems with concepts in Planetos, especially in Westeros. Most maesters, for example, seem to believe that it is possible to somehow "outlaw" magic. This is why Marwyn is important. I don't know whether the guy is good or bad, but he is intelligent. His opinion that his colleagues are "grey sheep" has substance.

No one has much of a handle on magic. It is not an easy thing to handle.

Stannis has been compared to Faust. I think that Dany may have something of Pandora in her. These are inexact comparisons, but they are worth considering.

[BearQueen87]

I'm sorry if this is all completely off topic from Dany and current chapters...I swear this will be my last response, though I welcome anything you have to say Parwan (I just feel rather guilty)

I. I don't call all of the worshippers of the red god demon worshippers. There do seem to be different sects, and no one can deny that there are different practitioners. Thoros is obviously not Melisandre. I do suggest that some practices, of whatever religion, can be called into question. I'm not alone in this. People in-universe maintain that some "gods" are actually devils and some acts of "worship" are evil. Most people, in our world or in Planetos, would say that Craster's offerings to "the real gods" were evil acts. Ser Godry and his friends may not rank with Craster, but I'm not convinced that they are far above him. People who believe in gods are properly called worshippers, even if the gods don't exist. If the sorts of sacrifices these people engage in are sufficiently repulsive, then it's not too much to wonder if this does not constitute demon worship, even if demons don't exist.

1. Yes there are people in Martin's universe who question the acts of these followers. But my rebuttal to this is: the people who are questioning these actions, are the followers themselves or are they outsiders who have a different cultural understanding of god and how to practice religion? These sacrifices that people engage in are repulsive to me, the 21st century girl who lives in a totally different reality. To the people in universe who actively believe in the Red God, there actions are not repulsive. As a reader who is not part of this universe I don't know how much judgement I can pass on any of these people as morally destitute because I do not agree with their practices. And, for the people in universe, they've had what they consider evidence that their practices work. Now, they don't know that Mel has tricks up her sleeve that she is using to fool people; what they see they perceive to be the power of God.

Also, I don't think Mel and Thoros is an apt comparison because Thoros was removed from his own culture and decided instead to take up with the one he was placed in (Westeros) whereas Mel has stayed trued to her own cultural morals and beliefs, in this case I suppose Asshai. Thoros actually seems more like the atypical Red Priest; Moqorro and Mel have more commonalities. And was Moqorro (or Bennero) met with any sort of hostility from fellow Red God worshipers for what they preached or practiced or did?

I. To me, R'hllor and the Great Other often seem to be the two different faces of one coin. This may not be the best interpretation, but it is a plausible one. Again, the plausibility of this conjecture does not depend on the existence of either entity. It depends upon the statements and actions of the practitioners. There are people in-universe, Asha Greyjoy for example, who see the feeding of the red god as wrong.

And, like I said above, Asha isn't part of the Red God's religion. She is basing her "wrong" feelings on her own cultural understanding of religion and what is decent practice and what is not decent practice. She's not an objective witness, especially given that she knows she might be next to the flames. She's not a sociologist in other words, conducting fieldwork. My sociology professor in grad school told me a story once of how he was in the field and one day he helped slaughter a chicken and offer it up in sacrifice. He did it to understand the people and their beliefs more; he found it distasteful as a man from a western civilization, but he could not pass judgement on them because he wasn't a part of their culture; instead his goal was to understand why it was important to those people. I can't say that the people in universe are going to far because I am not witnessing what they are, which they call God's power. In Asha's sacrifice chapter they think that by burning men, the Red God will melt the snows. Why? Because they've seen past evidence of his power.

But the concept of "feeding" men to a "god" is more than just problematic to me. I think it is more than just problematic to most residents of Martin's world.

We're going to go in circles, aren't we? lol

I swear, if you want to respond to me, please do and I'll read it all but not respond since we probably are getting off the main thrust of our readings. But my only response to the quoted is that most of the residents in Martin's world who are witnessing Mel's acts are not of the Red Religion and are disquieted by what they witness because they are not apart of that culture and belief system. In fact, isn't Mel the only POV we have of a worshiper of the Red God? And we all know that she considers the burnings to be fine. I would be curious to have a POV of some random R'hllor follower who is standing on the sidelines watching a burning and read what they had to say.

IV I don't think that it's probable that Dany will indulge in human sacrifice again. It is, however, possible that she will at least get involved in it. Stannis himself does not burn anyone. I don't think that he is an inherently evil person. I maintain, however, that he has allowed some of his followers to go too far.

And we've come full circle because I think this is how this all started: if Dany were to use her dragons to burn someone alive but not in the name of religion but of execution and justice (say the GG for being the Harpy) is it justifiable as her own method of execution? And I think that if Dany does burn someone alive in Winds or even later in ADOS, it won't be as an offering to appease a hungry God, but rather because she cannot wield a sword and "the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword." Dany's sword (her Ice to compare her to Ned) are her dragons.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Daenerys:VII

Hizdahr will bring me peace. He must.

Summary

The chapter begins with just a few days until Dany’s wedding. We begin the chapter with Dany in bed with Daario and reluctant for the day to go on. Daario

Asks her to hold court, but Dany does not want to and states that she will be giving over that job to Hidzahr after she is married. Daario is later able to convince her to hold court by telling her that her children (freed slaves) want her and that there are Westerosi (Quentyn’s crew) looking for her.

At court Dany finally meets Quentyn and finds out about the pact made for her brother Viserys and Arrianne Martell, heir of Dorne. The pact was made in Braavos and signed by Oberyn and Ser Willem Darry, for the marriage of Viserys and Arrianne in exchange for help to secure the Irone throne for Viserys. Dany takes this as a grain of salt as she is already committed to her cause in Meereen, which includes marrying Hizdahr.

Dany spends her last night with Daario before her wedding and after that she marries Hizdahr hoping he will bring the peace he promised.

Observations:

· Dany hasn’t held court in a long time and it seems that at this point she just wants to give everything away to Hizdahr and wash her hands from Meereen.

· Dany describes holding court as ‘wrestling with Meereen’

· Dany seems to have forgotten some of Quaithe’s warnings such as the mummer’s dragon but she however does remember the Sun’s Son. I wonder if this is because she is trying so hard to remove the thought of dragons from her mind

· Dany believes Rhaegar took Lyanna at swordpoint, so it seems the Targaryen version of the story also involves kidnapping

· The palanquins show that the nobility are still using freedmen to do the same work they did as they were slaces

Analysis

Dany and Daario

The chapter has a lot of focus on the relationship between Dany and Daario (probably the most in the book), at the beginning and then again slightly towards the end. I’ll focus on the literal parts of the relationship firstly and then move on towards the symbolic part afterwards.

The first question most people probably ask is if the relationship between Dany and Daario real love? Or is it just lust? Or is it just an attraction to his physical features? My answer is more of a mixture of all these questions. I’m not sure of the accurate definition of a loving relationship so I’m sticking with how it is portrayed in the books and that involves loving someone more as a person than their physical feature. There are examples like, Ned and Catelyn, Jaime and Brienne, and Sansa and Sandor and they involve loving the personality rather than the cover. Dany’s relationship with Daario on the other hand isn’t similar or complex to any of those above. Her adoration for him is focused more on his features and swagger rather than his personality, for example from this chapter:

Dany ran her hand down his back, tracing the line of his spine. His skin was smooth beneath her touch, almost hairless. His skin is silk and satin. She loved the feel of him beneath her fingers. She loved to run her fingers through his hair, to knead the ache from his calves after a long day in the saddle, to cup his cock and feel it harden against her palm. If she had been some ordinary woman, she would gladly have spent her whole life touching Daario, tracing his scars and making him tell her how he’d come by every one.

In terms of his personality, she can’t relate to it very well.

He also seems to be her gate way out of the situation she is in, as everything she worked for in Meereen is starting to crumble, Daario is a form of escapism for her that’s why she wishes for dawn to not come as she will sooner have to face reality.Daario and Dany’s relationship is romantic but I don’t believe it is love within the context of ASOIAF.

However in terms of Daario in the symbolic nature, he represents a lot for Dany and mostly positive. He represents Dany’s freedom and autonomy. Just as Annara stated earlier, as Dany marries Hizdahr she loses her freedom in everything, even sexually. Daario represents Dany’s freedom in the sense that she can can have sex when she pleases and his word of alternatives for Dany always involve a sense of her being free to do as she pleases. For example:

“You are a queen. You can do what you like.”

Hizdahr also in the other end of the spectrum represents Dany’s continuous metaphoric chains she keeps adding on.

Four hours later, they emerged again as man and wife, bound together wrist and ankle with chains of yellow gold.

The Queen and the Frog

Quentyn finally arrives with his proposal for Dany to marry him. We discussed earlier many of the problems on how Doran executed this plan so there is nothing more to say. However I just wanted to add other ways to please Dany.

1) Quentyn removing the partchment from his boot to present to Dany, makes me wonder if Doran actually trained him to woo a woman for a marriage alliance. They know nothing about Dany, so first impression is very important and I think this wasn’t the best of ways to start.

2) Doran knows Dany has dragons, and a dragon book would have been useful to both her and Quentyn and we all know from Arianne’s chapter that he had such a book.

During the daylight hours she would try to read, but the books that they had given her were deadly dull: ponderous old histories and geographies, annotated maps, a dry-as-dust study of the laws of Dorne, The Seven-Pointed Star and Lives of the High Septons, a huge tome about dragons that somehow made them about as interesting as newts. Arianne would have given much and more for a copy of Ten Thousand Ships or The Loves of Queen Nymeria, anything to occupy her thoughts and let her escape her tower for an hour or two, but such amusements were denied her.

Arrianne found the book boring and she wants to read a fairy-tale like book, so this book probably has actual real info about dragons rather than a child’s tale. I wonder why he didn’t give it to Quentyn as part of the gift to give to Dany, this could have changed a lot.

Barristan’s Reluctance

Many people have blamed Dany for not being able to learn the history of her family but after reading this chapter I believe Barristan carries most of the blame it seems like he almost doesn’t want Dany to know everything, he only wants her to know the good stuff. Some quotes of relevance to support this.

“if my father and my mother had been free to follow their own hearts, whom would they have wed?”

“It was long ago. Your Grace would not know them.”

“You know, though. Tell me.”

He tells Dany she would not know them so she doesn’t ask more

He was handsome in his gold-and-silver armor, his white cloak streaming from his shoulders, but he sounded like a man in pain, as if every word were a stone he had to pass.

.This doesn’t even need explaining

“I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”

Throughout the conversation he has several pauses and before we are interrupted it seems like he wasn’t even going to tell Dany the rest. I expect someone else will spill the truth tea to rather than Barristan, because even if he does he will whitewash everything and she’;; never get the truth of the matter.

The Wedding

With soo much going on in this chapter, the most important part is Dany’s marriage for peace. Was it a good descision? Was it a bad one? I suppose on a political level a marriage for political reasons can be taken in the light and this has happened many times in the series. But considering Dany is being played by the harpy and is basically a pawn at this point it’s not necessarily the best decision. It may be able to bring peace in Meereen, however it won’t stop the other Free Cities from going to war against her. We don’t know the long term aim of the Harpy so in the long run it could be a really bad descision, especially if their aim is to kill Dany.

The dark eye upon Dany

Im not one that looks a lot for foreshadowing but I believe her dream definitely foreshadows Euron as an antagonist towards her.

Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bed-clothes atangle.

This is exactly the same way Euron’s lips are described.

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile.

“King Crow’s Eye, brother.” Euron smiled. His lips looked very dark in the lamplight, bruised and blue.

And then this statement by Dany is really similar to Jojen’s dream.

Westeros may be swallowed by the waves.”

Jojen

“I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn’t know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon’s another. Your smith as well.”

It sounded random in context with the other things she said, it could perhaps mean Euron will have westeros by the time she gets there.

Conclusion

To conclude, this was a very meaty chapter and marks the beginning of a new age of Dany as wife to Hizdahr.

[Parwan]

I'm sorry if this is all completely off topic from Dany and current chapters...I swear this will be my last response, though I welcome anything you have to say Parwan (I just feel rather guilty)

1. Yes there are people in Martin's universe who question the acts of these followers. But my rebuttal to this is: the people who are questioning these actions, are the followers themselves or are they outsiders who have a different cultural understanding of god and how to practice religion? These sacrifices that people engage in are repulsive to me, the 21st century girl who lives in a totally different reality. To the people in universe who actively believe in the Red God, there actions are not repulsive. As a reader who is not part of this universe I don't know how much judgement I can pass on any of these people as morally destitute...

2. And, like I said above, Asha isn't part of the Red God's religion. She is basing her "wrong" feelings on her own cultural understanding of religion and what is decent practice and what is not decent practice. She's not an objective witness, especially given that she knows she might be next to the flames. She's not a sociologist in other words, conducting fieldwork...

We're going to go in circles, aren't we? lol

3. I swear, if you want to respond to me, please do and I'll read it all but not respond since we probably are getting off the main thrust of our readings. But my only response to the quoted is that most of the residents in Martin's world who are witnessing Mel's acts are not of the Red Religion and are disquieted by what they witness because they are not apart of that culture and belief system. In fact, isn't Mel the only POV we have of a worshiper of the Red God? And we all know that she considers the burnings to be fine. I would be curious to have a POV of some random R'hllor follower who is standing on the sidelines watching a burning and read what they had to say.

4. And we've come full circle because I think this is how this all started: if Dany were to use her dragons to burn someone alive but not in the name of religion but of execution and justice (say the GG for being the Harpy) is it justifiable as her own method of execution? And I think that if Dany does burn someone alive in Winds or even later in ADOS, it won't be as an offering to appease a hungry God, but rather because she cannot wield a sword and "the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword." Dany's sword (her Ice to compare her to Ned) are her dragons.

I think that there are some points relevant to Dany's arc--not just to the queen herself, but to others who are interacting with her, and to some who are heading her way.

1. Who says that outsiders can't judge a culture? The followers of the red god, the drowned god, the seven, and just about everyone else in-universe pass all kinds of judgments, many of them on others. Why aren't these judgments valid?

2. Dany certainly passes judgment on the Great Masters. Is there some sense in which she (or Asha, or anybody else) should be a sociologist, or a scientist of any sort, or anything other than what she is? Moqorro tells Victarion that the god of the ironborn is actually just a demon. Who's to say that Moqorro is wrong? There are lots of religions, lots of cultures, lots of different views of and practices of magic. It is well within the realm of possibility that some of these things are superior to others. That certainly is possible in Martin's world. As I've said a few times now, I find Marwyn's view of magic superior to that of "the grey sheep." This superiority might be more than just a practical matter. It may be based on a fundamentally better philosophy.

3. So, we can't say what the majority of the followers of R'hllor would say about the burnings, or even about the general practice of burning people. In my opinion, we also can't say that all religions are equal or that the followers of one religion can't be correct when they criticize the practices of another religion.

There is another point that I don't want to lose here. Above, I asked, "Did Stannis Baratheon execute the Peasebury men?" My answer was "Only in a very thin and hollow sense." Daenerys Targaryen and Stannis Baratheon are both very much monarchs. I believe that they would both agree with the statements of Eddard Stark and Kevan Lannister about justice flowing from the throne. In the Peasebury case, I see little or nothing flowing from the throne. Stannis seems disconnected. He is off in his tower, looking into the flames of a bonfire. He has turned his criminal justice system over to the practitioners of a foreign religion. It appears that there wasn't much of a trial (perhaps no trial at all). The king just decrees that the 4 men will die. He arrives late at the site, gives permission to proceed, then walks away. I doubt that Dany will give the red priests permission to burn anyone. If she does, I don't think she will be so disconnected from the process.

4. Why would Dany feel herself bound to follow Stark principles? The Targaryens never objected to using executioners, did they?

[BearQueen87]

Daenerys:VII

Hizdahr will bring me peace. He must.

Really nice job Queen Alysanne!!

So this is maybe my least favorite Dany chapter ever. And, before Kyoshi comes along and scolds me ( ;) ) no it's not just because of Daario, though I maintain that this relationship is super problematic and hopefully I'll be able to explain why. This chapter feels like Dany just gives up. You know, when I first read Dance I had convinced myself that Dany would find a way out of marrying Hizdahr. I really didn't trust him and didn't trust his plans for Meereen and thought, "oh, Dany will get out of this." Between not holding court and literally chaining herself, this is a pretty depressing chapter for me. Ah, well. Here we go.

Dany and Daario

The chapter has a lot of focus on the relationship between Dany and Daario (probably the most in the book), at the beginning and then again slightly towards the end. I’ll focus on the literal parts of the relationship firstly and then move on towards the symbolic part afterwards.

The first question most people probably ask is if the relationship between Dany and Daario real love? Or is it just lust? Or is it just an attraction to his physical features? My answer is more of a mixture of all these questions. I’m not sure of the accurate definition of a loving relationship so I’m sticking with how it is portrayed in the books and that involves loving someone more as a person than their physical feature. There are examples like, Ned and Catelyn, Jaime and Brienne, and Sansa and Sandor and they involve loving the personality rather than the cover. Dany’s relationship with Daario on the other hand isn’t similar or complex to any of those above. Her adoration for him is focused more on his features and swagger rather than his personality, for example from this chapter:

You'll forgive me if I talk rather long about this...

Is it real love? Depends on which party you ask, I think. For Dany, it is love but it's the complicated love that is beautiful to behold but on the inside isn't quite up to snuff (sort of like a piece of symbolic fruit I am going to talk about below), or is built on falsehoods, much like Daario who is beautiful to behold but "it's the dragon queen he loves." What Dany wants is a love where she is safe and at home with someone who loves her, all of her: The Queen, the Woman, the Young Girl, the Khaleesi, the Mother of Dragons. Dany knows that Daario doesn't love Daenerys, but the Queen she is. Daario wants her to be Queen, to have that awe inspiring power, which is why he keeps insisting that she hold court. She's Queen, she should be the fearsome Dragon Queen who once threatened him and his captains with death if they didn't stand aside for her. Kyoshi once argued that Daario doesn't want Dany to have any other King except him, and I think we have textual evidence that this isn't true.

He climbed from her bed. "Marry Hizdahr, then. I will give him a nice set of horns for his wedding gift. Ghiscari men like to prance about in horns...."

Daario is fine with Dany marrying, but he wants to be the man behind the Queen, not Hizdahr. He wants everyone to know that he's having nightly sex with Dany and that she's infatuated with him, hence kissing her after throwing a head at her feet, an act that is far and away beyond what is proper and decent. He knows the kind of power he has over her, he even manages to convince her to hold court when she doesn't wish to. Also, Daario is tossing heads at her feet; this goes back to their first chapter together in Dance where Daario tells Dany he will make her a pyramid out of skulls. So is it love for Daario? Maybe, but of a certain variety. Dany has always been incredibly observant; in aGoT she notices everything and everyone around her. She stays this way really until this book when she can't see the forest for the trees (like not knowing that the GG is the Harpy) but she still sees that Daario could never be King, that he only loves the Dragon Queen and not her, that he is improper and not fit to "buckle on the golden spurs of even a landed knight."

So it's not just lust for these two, but it's not the sort of satisfying love that Dany longs for either. I've been trying to make the case that Daario is a lot like Drogo, and is a Drogo stand-in, in a lot of ways. Even their appearances are familiar. Daario's body is covered in scars, and from aGoT when Dany is preparing Drogo for his pyre, we know that he has a scarred chest as well. Daario has magnificent hair that Dany loves to run her fingers through; Drogo has incredibly long hair that Dany spends quite a bit of time thinking about as she prepares him for his pyre, the weight of it, the feel of it, the smell of it.

One of the things that I think is saddest here is Dany's idea that she's forgotten what it felt to love and be loved in return and Daario is the one who helped her remember. It's sad because a great many people have loved her and whom she loves back. Even in her previous chapter POV, she remembers how Jorah loves her (in fact every time Jorah pops into her head she remembers how he loved her). I think Dany is, in some ways, trying to assure herself that this relationship could have worked if only it were a different time or different place. If she were just an ordinary woman and Daario were just an ordinary man, they could be so happy together. But that's not love. That's fantasy. That's changing every fundamental aspect of yourself to fit an imagined reality that does not exist. And that's what Dany is doing here. She's changing herself little by little to accommodate others, be it marrying Hizzy or not holding court (something that breaks my heart when she was always so proud of how "a queen must listen to everyone") or dreaming of giving up her crown altogether.

Anyone notice how many figs are in this chapter? The first one occurs right after Daario takes his leave early on.

Dany took a fig. It was black and plum, still moist with dew. Will Hizdahr ever make me scream? "It was the wind that you heard screaming." She took a bite, but the fruit had lost its savor now that Daario was gone.

Fig symbolism is hard to track down, but I think there is a correct interpretation here:

In Greek and Roman mythology, figs are sometimes associated with Dionysus (Bacchus to the Romans), god of wine and drunkenness, and with Priapus, a satyr who symbolized sexual desire.

X

Sounds a bit like her relationship with Daario. Intense sexual desire, Dany "drinks in" the scent of Daario in bed, and you can make the argument that Dany is drunk on Daario and their sexual time together. But the taste doesn't last. It looses it's flavor once Daario is gone, despite being a perfect piece of fruit.

I am reminded of another piece of fruit that never lost its savor, even though it wasn't much to look upon. (Sorry, but how could I not bring up Jorah? I am weak)

I've brought you a peach," Ser Jorah said, kneeling. It was so small she could hide it in her palm, and overripe too, but when she took the first bite, the flesh was so sweet she almost cried. She it slowly, savoring every mouthful, while Ser Jorah told her of the tree it had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

Dany I, ACOK

Peach symbolism varies but most often I found that in eastern cultures it can symbolize longevity (like Jorah's love for Dany), the moon goddess (like Dany), or most apt when we think back on the "Daario fig" the peach is a sexual goddess symbol as the phallus is a symbol of a god (which is how Priapus is often depicted, a satyr with a huge phallus) . Both are working as sexual objects; the fig looks perfect, it's still dewy and plump and black but it has no savor for Dany despite being a perfect piece of fruit. The peach is overripe, small and literally coming from a city that is dead, but it is sweet and savorful and Dany's cheeks are sticky with juice afterwards (sexual overtones, much?)

Moving on to their last sexual interaction together, I want to say that I'm glad Dany is having good sex. I mean that. Sex with Drogo was good because she felt loved but it was never actually good sex and was always about Drogo's pleasure not Dany's. But sex with Daario is almost like another plain of existence. Good for you, Dany.

I admit that there is some jealousy here with Daario; he doesn't want to loose his place in her bed, be it Hizzy or Quentyn. And if you want to talk about power removal, Dany orders Daario to fuck her, and he walks away. Any power Dany once had is just being stripped slowly away.

Many people have blamed Dany for not being able to learn the history of her family but after reading this chapter I believe Barristan carries most of the blame it seems like he almost doesn’t want Dany to know everything, he only wants her to know the good stuff. Some quotes of relevance to support this.

I agree. When I was re-reading this chapter just now, I was struck by how Dany tells Barry to tell her everything, the good and the other stuff. She longs to know these things, but once again they are interrupted. GRRM is doing this deliberately.

Throughout the conversation he has several pauses and before we are interrupted it seems like he wasn’t even going to tell Dany the rest. I expect someone else will spill the truth tea to rather than Barristan, because even if he does he will whitewash everything and she’;; never get the truth of the matter.

*cough* Tyrion *cough*

With soo much going on in this chapter, the most important part is Dany’s marriage for peace. Was it a good descision? Was it a bad one? I suppose on a political level a marriage for political reasons can be taken in the light and this has happened many times in the series. But considering Dany is being played by the harpy and is basically a pawn at this point it’s not necessarily the best decision. It may be able to bring peace in Meereen, however it won’t stop the other Free Cities from going to war against her. We don’t know the long term aim of the Harpy so in the long run it could be a really bad descision, especially if their aim is to kill Dany.

She's trying for peace. I cannot fault Dany for that, but oh...seeing her described as in a chain, that one hurts. The Breaker of Chains herself chained. She's still Queen, she still lives in her Pyramid, but she has become a metaphorical slave instead of a literal one.

Dany has some interesting ideas of romance and what a real lover would do in this situation. A real lover would "gallop up just as we reached the temple, to challenge Hizdahr for my hand;" and "If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at sword point, as Rhaegar carried of his northern girl." Like something out of a fairy tale, that's what Dany expects. Daario and Dany talked about fairy tales earlier in this chapter:

When Dany told him how Serwyn of the Mirror Shield was haunted by the ghosts of all the knight he'd killed, Daario only laughed. "If the ones I killed come bother me, I will kill them all again."

In other words: Daario is NOT a prince or knight from her fairy tales. He's not going to rescue her; he's not going to fight through men and Brazen Beasts to get to her; he's not going to fight his way to her side. And I've been saying this for awhile now, but one of Dany's biggest arcs in Dance is that she doesn't know how to reconcile the idea of being a woman and a queen: "Am I a queen or just a woman?" she asks as she goes to wed Hizzy. You can be both, Dany. Just need someone to show you how.

MISC things:

1) Poor Quentyn. He just has no chance here. Dany likens him to a fairy tale, but Quentyn is not a fairy tale prince just like Daario is not a fairy tale knight come to rescue her.

2)

Im not one that looks a lot for foreshadowing but I believe her dream definitely foreshadows Euron as an antagonist towards her.

Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bed-clothes atangle.

This is exactly the same way Euron’s lips are described.

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile.

“King Crow’s Eye, brother.” Euron smiled. His lips looked very dark in the lamplight, bruised and blue.

That's a really good observation and one I hadn't thought of before. If Dany ever meets Euron, his blue lips and sorcery will have her on the defense. Hm. I wonder if Euron might take down Aegon instead of Dany taking him down....

3) This is Dany's second marriage and once more we do not see the actual ceremony nor is any of it in the Westerosi fashion, just like her marriage to Drogo. I think that when Dany marries for the third time it will be in full on Westerosi tradition and we will actually witness it.

[Fire Eater]

Nice job, Queen Alysanne

However in terms of Daario in the symbolic nature, he represents a lot for Dany and mostly positive. He represents Dany’s freedom and autonomy. Just as Annara stated earlier, as Dany marries Hizdahr she loses her freedom in everything, even sexually. Daario represents Dany’s freedom in the sense that she can can have sex when she pleases and his word of alternatives for Dany always involve a sense of her being free to do as she pleases. For example:

I wouldn't say that. He more likely represents the id, war, etc; akin to Darkstar for Arianne, not positive imagery.

The candle flickered one last time and died, drowned in its own wax. Darkness swallowed the feather bed and its two occupants, and filled every corner of the chamber.

I guess this means their relationship is officially over as a result of circumstances surrounding it like the wax around the candle.

Ser Grandfather had been so wroth that Dany feared blood might be shed.

Now Dany thinks of him Barristan as "Ser Grandfather" like Daario does.

Im not one that looks a lot for foreshadowing but I believe her dream definitely foreshadows Euron as an antagonist towards her.

Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bed-clothes atangle.

This is exactly the same way Euron’s lips are described.

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile.

“King Crow’s Eye, brother.” Euron smiled. His lips looked very dark in the lamplight, bruised and blue.

I highly doubt that given Euron isn't described anywhere as cold as ice, and he isn't headed towards Dany and likely will die before she even reaches Westeros. He can't serve any big threat as she has the Iron Fleet and he no longer has the dragonhorn, which has been sabotaged. There is another description that fits her dream:

You [Tyrion] were as cold as ice, and your lips were blue.

I think it actually points to Tyrion.

That's a really good observation and one I hadn't thought of before. If Dany ever meets Euron, his blue lips and sorcery will have her on the defense. Hm. I wonder if Euron might take down Aegon instead of Dany taking him down....

Aegon has been more built up than Euron so I doubt Euron will kill him, and clues point towards the opposite.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Really nice job Queen Alysanne!!

So this is maybe my least favorite Dany chapter ever. And, before Kyoshi comes along and scolds me ( ;) ) no it's not just because of Daario, though I maintain that this relationship is super problematic and hopefully I'll be able to explain why. This chapter feels like Dany just gives up. You know, when I first read Dance I had convinced myself that Dany would find a way out of marrying Hizdahr. I really didn't trust him and didn't trust his plans for Meereen and thought, "oh, Dany will get out of this." Between not holding court and literally chaining herself, this is a pretty depressing chapter for me. Ah, well. Here we go.

You'll forgive me if I talk rather long about this...

Is it real love? Depends on which party you ask, I think. For Dany, it is love but it's the complicated love that is beautiful to behold but on the inside isn't quite up to snuff (sort of like a piece of symbolic fruit I am going to talk about below), or is built on falsehoods, much like Daario who is beautiful to behold but "it's the dragon queen he loves." What Dany wants is a love where she is safe and at home with someone who loves her, all of her: The Queen, the Woman, the Young Girl, the Khaleesi, the Mother of Dragons. Dany knows that Daario doesn't love Daenerys, but the Queen she is. Daario wants her to be Queen, to have that awe inspiring power, which is why he keeps insisting that she hold court. She's Queen, she should be the fearsome Dragon Queen who once threatened him and his captains with death if they didn't stand aside for her. Kyoshi once argued that Daario doesn't want Dany to have any other King except him, and I think we have textual evidence that this isn't true.

Daario is fine with Dany marrying, but he wants to be the man behind the Queen, not Hizdahr. He wants everyone to know that he's having nightly sex with Dany and that she's infatuated with him, hence kissing her after throwing a head at her feet, an act that is far and away beyond what is proper and decent. He knows the kind of power he has over her, he even manages to convince her to hold court when she doesn't wish to. Also, Daario is tossing heads at her feet; this goes back to their first chapter together in Dance where Daario tells Dany he will make her a pyramid out of skulls. So is it love for Daario? Maybe, but of a certain variety. Dany has always been incredibly observant; in aGoT she notices everything and everyone around her. She stays this way really until this book when she can't see the forest for the trees (like not knowing that the GG is the Harpy) but she still sees that Daario could never be King, that he only loves the Dragon Queen and not her, that he is improper and not fit to "buckle on the golden spurs of even a landed knight."

So it's not just lust for these two, but it's not the sort of satisfying love that Dany longs for either. I've been trying to make the case that Daario is a lot like Drogo, and is a Drogo stand-in, in a lot of ways. Even their appearances are familiar. Daario's body is covered in scars, and from aGoT when Dany is preparing Drogo for his pyre, we know that he has a scarred chest as well. Daario has magnificent hair that Dany loves to run her fingers through; Drogo has incredibly long hair that Dany spends quite a bit of time thinking about as she prepares him for his pyre, the weight of it, the feel of it, the smell of it.

One of the things that I think is saddest here is Dany's idea that she's forgotten what it felt to love and be loved in return and Daario is the one who helped her remember. It's sad because a great many people have loved her and whom she loves back. Even in her previous chapter POV, she remembers how Jorah loves her (in fact every time Jorah pops into her head she remembers how he loved her). I think Dany is, in some ways, trying to assure herself that this relationship could have worked if only it were a different time or different place. If she were just an ordinary woman and Daario were just an ordinary man, they could be so happy together. But that's not love. That's fantasy. That's changing every fundamental aspect of yourself to fit an imagined reality that does not exist. And that's what Dany is doing here. She's changing herself little by little to accommodate others, be it marrying Hizzy or not holding court (something that breaks my heart when she was always so proud of how "a queen must listen to everyone") or dreaming of giving up her crown altogether.

Anyone notice how many figs are in this chapter? The first one occurs right after Daario takes his leave early on.

Fig symbolism is hard to track down, but I think there is a correct interpretation here:

X

Sounds a bit like her relationship with Daario. Intense sexual desire, Dany "drinks in" the scent of Daario in bed, and you can make the argument that Dany is drunk on Daario and their sexual time together. But the taste doesn't last. It looses it's flavor once Daario is gone, despite being a perfect piece of fruit.

I am reminded of another piece of fruit that never lost its savor, even though it wasn't much to look upon. (Sorry, but how could I not bring up Jorah? I am weak)

Dany I, ACOK

Peach symbolism varies but most often I found that in eastern cultures it can symbolize longevity (like Jorah's love for Dany), the moon goddess (like Dany), or most apt when we think back on the "Daario fig" the peach is a sexual goddess symbol as the phallus is a symbol of a god (which is how Priapus is often depicted, a satyr with a huge phallus) . Both are working as sexual objects; the fig looks perfect, it's still dewy and plump and black but it has no savor for Dany despite being a perfect piece of fruit. The peach is overripe, small and literally coming from a city that is dead, but it is sweet and savorful and Dany's cheeks are sticky with juice afterwards (sexual overtones, much?)

Moving on to their last sexual interaction together, I want to say that I'm glad Dany is having good sex. I mean that. Sex with Drogo was good because she felt loved but it was never actually good sex and was always about Drogo's pleasure not Dany's. But sex with Daario is almost like another plain of existence. Good for you, Dany.

I admit that there is some jealousy here with Daario; he doesn't want to loose his place in her bed, be it Hizzy or Quentyn. And if you want to talk about power removal, Dany orders Daario to fuck her, and he walks away. Any power Dany once had is just being stripped slowly away.

I agree. When I was re-reading this chapter just now, I was struck by how Dany tells Barry to tell her everything, the good and the other stuff. She longs to know these things, but once again they are interrupted. GRRM is doing this deliberately.

*cough* Tyrion *cough*

She's trying for peace. I cannot fault Dany for that, but oh...seeing her described as in a chain, that one hurts. The Breaker of Chains herself chained. She's still Queen, she still lives in her Pyramid, but she has become a metaphorical slave instead of a literal one.

Dany has some interesting ideas of romance and what a real lover would do in this situation. A real lover would "gallop up just as we reached the temple, to challenge Hizdahr for my hand;" and "If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at sword point, as Rhaegar carried of his northern girl." Like something out of a fairy tale, that's what Dany expects. Daario and Dany talked about fairy tales earlier in this chapter:

In other words: Daario is NOT a prince or knight from her fairy tales. He's not going to rescue her; he's not going to fight through men and Brazen Beasts to get to her; he's not going to fight his way to her side. And I've been saying this for awhile now, but one of Dany's biggest arcs in Dance is that she doesn't know how to reconcile the idea of being a woman and a queen: "Am I a queen or just a woman?" she asks as she goes to wed Hizzy. You can be both, Dany. Just need someone to show you how.

MISC things:

1) Poor Quentyn. He just has no chance here. Dany likens him to a fairy tale, but Quentyn is not a fairy tale prince just like Daario is not a fairy tale knight come to rescue her.

2)

That's a really good observation and one I hadn't thought of before. If Dany ever meets Euron, his blue lips and sorcery will have her on the defense. Hm. I wonder if Euron might take down Aegon instead of Dany taking him down....

3) This is Dany's second marriage and once more we do not see the actual ceremony nor is any of it in the Westerosi fashion, just like her marriage to Drogo. I think that when Dany marries for the third time it will be in full on Westerosi tradition and we will actually witness it.

Thanks :)

I agree with you, on someone loving Dany on all aspects of her identity. Why I said her relationship isn't really love, is because I think even though Dany says she loves him she also dislikes his character and I think love involves loving the person's personality most importantly. I think Dany's love to Daario is more like a teenager's first love and involves alot of swooning.

Your comparison of the fruits are amazing and I think it ties the two situations of Daario and Jorah well.

Nice job, Queen Alysanne

I wouldn't say that. He more likely represents the id, war, etc; akin to Darkstar for Arianne, not positive imagery.

The candle flickered one last time and died, drowned in its own wax. Darkness swallowed the feather bed and its two occupants, and filled every corner of the chamber.

I guess this means their relationship is officially over as a result of circumstances surrounding it like the wax around the candle.

Ser Grandfather had been so wroth that Dany feared blood might be shed.

Now Dany thinks of him Barristan as "Ser Grandfather" like Daario does.

I highly doubt that given Euron isn't described anywhere as cold as ice, and he isn't headed towards Dany and likely will die before she even reaches Westeros. He can't serve any big threat as she has the Iron Fleet and he no longer has the dragonhorn, which has been sabotaged. There is another description that fits her dream:

You [Tyrion] were as cold as ice, and your lips were blue.

I think it actually points to Tyrion.

Aegon has been more built up than Euron so I doubt Euron will kill him, and clues point towards the opposite.

I agree he represents war, but I think he also represents her sense of freedom. She feels most free when she is with him and as BearQueen stated, that is the only time when she seems to have her good observational skills that she has lacked since she became Queen of Meereen. She had those skills especially in Qarth when she was in her Dothraki garb and was more free.

I think the dream fits Euron , Tyrion doesn't have a bruise. Also that time where Tyrion's lip was blue only happened once, Euron has had a constant colour of lip and bruised part.

I disagree on Aegon being set up as Dany's main antagonist. It seems more like Euron based on the text. Aegon being Dany's main antagonist has very little textual support.

• Euron is working with warlocks that are enemies of Dany

He has a dragon horn that could catch one of her dragons to oppose her

Two red priests have given warnings of him on Dany

And this dream also adds into the mix.

Euron also seems to be the Harren the Black of this story, and Dany has shades of Aegon the conqueror in her

Aegon is only mentioned once in Dany's arc in ADWD from a vision from Quaithe in which the Ironborn were also mentioned.

[BearQueen87]

I disagree on Aegon being set up as Dany's main antagonist. It seems more like Euron based on the text. Aegon being Dany's main antagonist has very little textual support.

• Euron is working with warlocks that are enemies of Dany
• He has a dragon horn that could catch one of her dragons to oppose her
• Two red priests have given warnings of him on Dany
• And this dream also adds into the mix.
• Euron also seems to be the Harren the Black of this story, and Dany has shades of Aegon the conqueror in her

Aegon is only mentioned once in Dany's arc in ADWD from a vision from Quaithe in which the Ironborn were also mentioned.

Up until you pointed out Euron as the antagonist for Dany, I would have said that Aegon would be her rival. It seemed the most logical: she's the true dragon, he's the false dragon. Both Targaryen's, though one black and one red, so naturally it's the Dance of Dragons 2.0. But there is an interesting thread that just started from Apple Martini about The crowd cheering the murmmer's dragon and how Aegon will actually become the people's champion backed by the Faith. It's pretty interesting and I think has some merit. If Dany arrives in Westeros to find that Aegon has the support of the people and the Faith but that he's at war against Euron, Dany might actually team up with Aegon to take down Euron and then form some sort of strategic political alliance with Aegon (I don't think it's marriage pact, though. And I don't see Aegon living further beyond once this pact is made). Some food for thought.

[MoIaF]

Daenerys:VII

Hizdahr will bring me peace. He must.

Excellent analysis, thanks! :thumbsup:

Observations:

· Dany hasn’t held court in a long time and it seems that at this point she just wants to give everything away to Hizdahr and wash her hands from Meereen.

Do you remember when we did the analysis of Dany IX in AGOT and Ragnarok liken her three awakening after her fevered dream to the three stages of her life?

This is the beginning of the dejected and despondent Dany. I have to agree with BearQueen87 this is my least favorite Dany chapter. I feel like she's almost completely forgotten herself, forgotten what she believes in why she's there. The fact that she hasn't held court in a while is troubling and I would actually agree with Daario on this that the people in Meereen are also her people.

Everything she's believed in, in how a queen doesn't belong to herself bu her people has been forgotten or she's just given up.

Analysis

Dany and Daario

The chapter has a lot of focus on the relationship between Dany and Daario (probably the most in the book), at the beginning and then again slightly towards the end. I’ll focus on the literal parts of the relationship firstly and then move on towards the symbolic part afterwards.

The first question most people probably ask is if the relationship between Dany and Daario real love? Or is it just lust? Or is it just an attraction to his physical features? My answer is more of a mixture of all these questions. I’m not sure of the accurate definition of a loving relationship so I’m sticking with how it is portrayed in the books and that involves loving someone more as a person than their physical feature. There are examples like, Ned and Catelyn, Jaime and Brienne, and Sansa and Sandor and they involve loving the personality rather than the cover. Dany’s relationship with Daario on the other hand isn’t similar or complex to any of those above. Her adoration for him is focused more on his features and swagger rather than his personality, for example from this chapter:

Really nice job Queen Alysanne!!

So this is maybe my least favorite Dany chapter ever. And, before Kyoshi comes along and scolds me ( ;) ) no it's not just because of Daario, though I maintain that this relationship is super problematic and hopefully I'll be able to explain why. This chapter feels like Dany just gives up. You know, when I first read Dance I had convinced myself that Dany would find a way out of marrying Hizdahr. I really didn't trust him and didn't trust his plans for Meereen and thought, "oh, Dany will get out of this." Between not holding court and literally chaining herself, this is a pretty depressing chapter for me. Ah, well. Here we go.

You'll forgive me if I talk rather long about this...

Is it real love? Depends on which party you ask, I think. For Dany, it is love but it's the complicated love that is beautiful to behold but on the inside isn't quite up to snuff (sort of like a piece of symbolic fruit I am going to talk about below), or is built on falsehoods, much like Daario who is beautiful to behold but "it's the dragon queen he loves." What Dany wants is a love where she is safe and at home with someone who loves her, all of her: The Queen, the Woman, the Young Girl, the Khaleesi, the Mother of Dragons. Dany knows that Daario doesn't love Daenerys, but the Queen she is. Daario wants her to be Queen, to have that awe inspiring power, which is why he keeps insisting that she hold court. She's Queen, she should be the fearsome Dragon Queen who once threatened him and his captains with death if they didn't stand aside for her. Kyoshi once argued that Daario doesn't want Dany to have any other King except him, and I think we have textual evidence that this isn't true.

I contend that Dany is infatuated with Daario. Is it love? Sort of, that's what infatuation is a love of an ideal but it's not really deep or "true love" as we know it or as it's known in universe.

So, before I go on a Daario rant I will concede these points: he does make Dany feel good, excited, loved*, and he reminds of her strength of what she is capable of, of who she really is inside (i.e. dragon).

However, even though Dany recognizes what he is and who he is she's still quite infatuated with him to the point that as BearQueen87 she's lost her power or given up her power to him. I don't think that's a good at all. It some of her thoughts she seem almost subservient to him, which ties in with her last chapter where she's become almost subservient to the GG and what they want. It's sort of contradictory because she knows she can't be with him but when she's with him she just gives herself up open and freely which gives me a knot in my stomach because I know it won't end well. I know I'm not in the majority in this but I believe he will betray her and it will be a very harsh lesson for Dany. She won't give her heart up so easily the next time (which is a good thing in a way).

*Dany is equating sexual intimacy with love which really isn't love. As BearQueen87 mentioned, she's loved by a great many people, however, she does not have (non-sexual) intimate relationship with almost any of them. She doesn't really have a confidant, a friend, the people who love her serve her mostly and although Daario serves her as well he is also intimate with her which is why she equates that with love. What Dany needs is true intimacy.

The dark eye upon Dany

Im not one that looks a lot for foreshadowing but I believe her dream definitely foreshadows Euron as an antagonist towards her.

Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bed-clothes atangle.

This is exactly the same way Euron’s lips are described.

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile.

“King Crow’s Eye, brother.” Euron smiled. His lips looked very dark in the lamplight, bruised and blue.

And then this statement by Dany is really similar to Jojen’s dream.

Westeros may be swallowed by the waves.”

Jojen

“I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn’t know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon’s another. Your smith as well.”

It sounded random in context with the other things she said, it could perhaps mean Euron will have westeros by the time she gets there.

Excellent catch on the waves.

I've always thought that Euron would be probably Dany's greatest foes. In fact if as you speculate Euron has conquered Westeros by the time Dany arrives and has acquired a dragon through the use of the horn then that is the likely "Dance of Dragons" not Targaryen dragons but actual ones.

GRRM has said that we will see a few people sit on the throne, perhaps in the next book we'll have Aegon later deposed by Euron.

The blue lips so similar to Pyat Pree who swore bloody revenge on Dany cannot be a mere coincidence. What Dany started at the HOTU she hasn't finished, her and Drogon need to destroy the last of that corrupted blue hear.

Up until you pointed out Euron as the antagonist for Dany, I would have said that Aegon would be her rival. It seemed the most logical: she's the true dragon, he's the false dragon. Both Targaryen's, though one black and one red, so naturally it's the Dance of Dragons 2.0. But there is an interesting thread that just started from Apple Martini about The crowd cheering the murmmer's dragon and how Aegon will actually become the people's champion backed by the Faith. It's pretty interesting and I think has some merit. If Dany arrives in Westeros to find that Aegon has the support of the people and the Faith but that he's at war against Euron, Dany might actually team up with Aegon to take down Euron and then form some sort of strategic political alliance with Aegon (I don't think it's marriage pact, though. And I don't see Aegon living further beyond once this pact is made). Some food for thought.

You know, I though that that was a given that the faith would join with Aegon. The crowds cheering the mummer's dragon is also an illusion, which won't end well either. Like Maester Aemon said: "the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness". This vision is part of the slayer of lies trio, like Stannis those who follow them will get lost in the darkness.

[HexMachina]

Thank you for the wonderful analysis Queen Alysanne :)

This is qlso my least favourite chapter, as Dany just seems to give up at this stage. I'll give a more thorough commentary later, but for now I would like yo address something MoIaF said above.

You mention she has no confidante, no true, close friend. Well I would disagree there. I don't think Dany realises it herself, but the likes of Missande etc. don't just see Dany as their Queen and "mother". They see her as their friend. This goes back to where Dany comforted Missandei after her brother's death. That isn't the act of a monarch, but someone who has genuine affection for the girl

[MoIaF]

Thank you for the wonderful analysis Queen Alysanne :)

This is qlso my least favourite chapter, as Dany just seems to give up at this stage. I'll give a more thorough commentary later, but for now I would like yo address something MoIaF said above.

You mention she has no confidante, no true, close friend. Well I would disagree there. I don't think Dany realises it herself, but the likes of Missande etc. don't just see Dany as their Queen and "mother". They see her as their friend. This goes back to where Dany comforted Missandei after her brother's death. That isn't the act of a monarch, but someone who has genuine affection for the girl

I think there is a difference between loving someone and having an intimate relationship with someone you love.

Dany loves Missandei and Irri and the rest of her people but she doesn't have an intimate (confidant to confidant) relationship with any of them. She doesn't talk to them about her woes, her fears, her love of Daario, what she dreams about, what she hopes for, etc.

She's close to them, yes, but they aren't her friends. The closest Dany has come to that kind of relationship is with Jorah. I mean when she is dismissing him she notes he was one of her only friends. That's the kind of intimacy I'm referring to.

Let's put it this way, is there anyone in Dany's life that is the equal to Sam in Jon's life? I don't think so.

[BearQueen87]

However, even though Dany recognizes what he is and who he is she's still quite infatuated with him to the point that as BearQueen87 she's lost her power or given up her power to him. I don't think that's a good at all. It some of her thoughts she seem almost subservient to him, which ties in with her last chapter where she's become almost subservient to the GG and what they want. It's sort of contradictory because she knows she can't be with him but when she's with him she just gives herself up open and freely which gives me a knot in my stomach because I know it won't end well. I know I'm not in the majority in this but I believe he will betray her and it will be a very harsh lesson for Dany. She won't give her heart up so easily the next time (which is a good thing in a way).

*Dany is equating sexual intimacy with love which really isn't love. As BearQueen87 mentioned, she's loved by a great many people, however, she does not have (non-sexual) intimate relationship with almost any of them. She doesn't really have a confidant, a friend, the people who love her serve her mostly and although Daario serves her as well he is also intimate with her which is why she equates that with love. What Dany needs is true intimacy.

It's interesting that you mention the idea of being subservient to Daario. I think their final sex scene, the way GRRM describes it, really adds to this idea: "...and for one sweet heartbeat she could not tell whether he was inside of her, or her inside of him." On the one hand, it's just good sex. But on the other, where does Daario begin and end and where does Dany begin and end? It's hard to tell. Who is riding whom, in other words

With the betrayal aspect, once again GRRM has thrown in some lines that make me raise my eyebrow a bit.

"Once I am wed it will be high treason to desire me." Dany pulled the coverlet up over her breasts

"Then I must be a traitor."

I think there is a difference between loving someone and having an intimate relationship with someone you love.

Dany loves Missandei and Irri and the rest of her people but she doesn't have an intimate (confidant to confidant) relationship with any of them. She doesn't talk to them about her woes, her fears, her love of Daario, what she dreams about, what she hopes for, etc.

She's close to them, yes, but they aren't her friends. The closest Dany has come to that kind of relationship is with Jorah. I mean when she is dismissing him she notes he was one of her only friends. That's the kind of intimacy I'm referring to.

Let's put it this way, is there anyone in Dany's life that is the equal to Sam in Jon's life? I don't think so.

I would agree that she doesn't have a "Sam" anymore. Jorah was her Sam. You talk about true intimacy and there are moments when Jorah and Dany have these moments of being completely connected even if it's only for a brief moment in time. Just a few that I can think of:

1)The night before "dracarys" Dany's overwhelmed by emotions and wants to be alone but Jorah follows her around the ship because "he's never far. He knows my moods to well." In the end, she ends up talking about how scared and alone she was her whole life and how Viserys made her feel like that, something no true king should make his subjects feel. Jorah's response is just smile and touch her hair. Dany's internal narration is that this action "is enough" to settle her.

2)Without jumping too far ahead but in her final POV in Dance, when Subconscious Vision! Jorah comes to her, he's the one she ends up confessing the real reason why she stayed in Meereen. Yes, to rule, but because she's tired.

3)And probably most telling of all, Dany I from ACOK, the "peach" scene; "tell me the name of your ghost, Ser Jorah" where the entire scene is one of intense connectivity and intimacy.

So Dany lost quite a bit when Jorah wouldn't fall to his knees and beg forgiveness. She has Selmy but she's never reached out to him the way she did with Jorah. And like it was noted by Fire Eater she's even started calling him Ser Grandfather, which was not a nice nickname and shows how consumed by Daario she became.

[SeanF]

Thanks for the summary Queen Alysanne. You're right that it's a depressing chapter. More than her last chapter in the wilderness, it's probably her lowest point in the book. At least by the end of the last chapter, she seems to have formed some conclusions about what she needs to do.

Re friendship: Missandei is a friend for Dany, I think. But, for all her intellectual brilliance, she is an 11 year old girl. Dany wouldn't want to talk frankly about relationships and sex with her. Maybe she could when she gets older, but not now. For the moment, she's like a younger sister, or substitute daughter for Dany.

For all that she's fond of Irri and Jhiqi, they're too clearly servants to be close friends. A good friend will sometimes answer you back, and tell you you're wrong, but Irri and Jhiqi would never do that.

In truth, all the main players in this series are very lonely. Tyrion has no friends, nor does Arya, once she's left Gendry. Jon has friends, but as Lord Commander, he has to distance himself from them.