The Tattered prince (and ser Baristtan)

[scurvy]

I know a lot of people are saying Ser Barristan will die in the Battle of Mereen b/c there are too many POV characters there and he is the least important moving forward.  That may very well be true in terms of being the least important.  Victarion just spent an entire book sailing there, there are significant unanswered questions about the horn, his relationship with Euron, etc.  Yet, others have had journeys, unanswered questions, and died quickly too.  Maybe Victarion is only there to bring the horn, the Dusky woman - who is really a Warlock in disguise, and Black Flame to Dany.  

Plus, GRRM has complained that the show has killed off and/or eliminated many characters who have a lot more to do.  He specifically mentioned the Tyrell sons other than Ser Loras.  If Euron is attacking the Reach, Ser Garlan will be a major player in that battle.  But, I think Ser Barristan still has a part to play as well.  If Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne then Ser Barristan musts need to see her with Aegon before the end of the series.  Mayhaps it's just fantasy silliness that makes me believe that Ser Barristan also needs to die on Westeros where people see him die to crystalize his legacy.  The last anyone knows of him, he killed a few Gold Cloaks and fled KL.  That's not the stuff of legends.  Jaime's chicken scratch in the White Book of Ser Barristan's death in battle bringing the rightful monarch to the throne or even Ser Barristan's writing of his own return to KL as the LC of the Kingsguard would be the right thing.

Also, Tyrion dreams of a major battle in Westeros in which he fights besides the Golden Company (Bittlersteel) and Ser Barristan, with dragons flying overhead.  See Barristan leads the army and Tywin leads Tyrion's opponent- obviously impossible. He slays Jaime.

[Samson]

I said it before and I will say it again..... HBO D&D etc. killing Ser Barristan was one of the absolute worst things they have done to the show.

 

I mean Season 5 was just the icing on the cake with a lot , and I mean a LOT, of ridiculousness they did on purpose just to do it because they can and their egos are now superegos because they are the bosses of the biggest entertainment thing in the world now, but still, killing Barristan Selmy was unforgivable to me.

 

 

[Sword of the Morgan]

I still think it's possible that the Tattered Prince, not Quentyn, was the one that was killed by the dragons. It would be fun if Quentyn assumed the identity of the TP. It's a long shot, but there are some theories out there that make it seem semi-plausible. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

I still think it's possible that the Tattered Prince, not Quentyn, was the one that was killed by the dragons. It would be fun if Quentyn assumed the identity of the TP. It's a long shot, but there are some theories out there that make it seem semi-plausible. 

I feel you are forgetting what happened, because that really isn't possible.  Quentyn was the POV when he was burned, we weren't told by someone else what happened, we were reading Quentyns thoughts.

[Samson]

I feel you are forgetting what happened, because that really isn't possible.  Quentyn was the POV when he was burned, we weren't told by someone else what happened, we were reading Quentyns thoughts.

Yeah I didn't want to be the one to say it but while I'm all about theories and subtle hints that this might not be that or 2+2 might not equal 4 in the books, this one is pretty cut and dry.

 

He's dead, Jim.

 

Dead as a doornail.

 

Plus I am pretty sure we're going to find out The Tattered Prince is someone else other than just The Tattered Prince, because GRRM.

 

[AerionBrightflameII]

I said it before and I will say it again..... HBO D&D etc. killing Ser Barristan was one of the absolute worst things they have done to the show.

 

I mean Season 5 was just the icing on the cake with a lot , and I mean a LOT, of ridiculousness they did on purpose just to do it because they can and their egos are now superegos because they are the bosses of the biggest entertainment thing in the world now, but still, killing Barristan Selmy was unforgivable to me.

 

 

I think this is a little unfair...

I mean they HAD to branch out, they might have known the basic's of how ASOIAF will end but the little facets that make it work aren't usable since GRRM hasn't finished they are setting themselves up to go thing their way. Unless you would like to hiatus GOT until ASOIAF is finished? The TV Show/Movies are never as good as the books series it will be the same thing with Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicles.

 

I quite liked Season 5, obviously not as much as the book series but i just view them both as different telling of the same story..

[Samson]

I'm not really sure how to reply and be cordial about it so allow me to say, I disagree with you.

 

 

[AerionBrightflameII]

I'm not really sure how to reply and be cordial about it so allow me to say, I disagree with you.

 

 

Haha thanks for being cordial at least 

[Sword of the Morgan]

I feel you are forgetting what happened, because that really isn't possible.  Quentyn was the POV when he was burned, we weren't told by someone else what happened, we were reading Quentyns thoughts.

I understand that, but we don't know for certain that he was killed in that last POV chapter. I do agree that it's certainly likely, but this series has a habit of bringing characters back that we think are dead if we didn't actually witness their death for sure. And the way Quentyn's compatriots act toward "his" body when they are discovered is very curious. And all the smiling references at least open up a discussion. 

Again, I said it's not likely, but one cannot rule it out yet. 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/84669-quentyn-possibly-alive/

[ChillyPolly]

I feel you are forgetting what happened, because that really isn't possible.  Quentyn was the POV when he was burned, we weren't told by someone else what happened, we were reading Quentyns thoughts.

It is very possible.  George faked you out.  You are not considering the possibilities.

Burning =/= dead, necessarily.  Dany was burning as well.  Twice.  First in the Bonfire, later in the Pit.  Quentyn is a just bit more panicky. 

[The Fattest Leech]

I think this is a little unfair...

I mean they HAD to branch out, they might have known the basic's of how ASOIAF will end but the little facets that make it work aren't usable since GRRM hasn't finished they are setting themselves up to go thing their way. Unless you would like to hiatus GOT until ASOIAF is finished? The TV Show/Movies are never as good as the books series it will be the same thing with Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicles.

 

I quite liked Season 5, obviously not as much as the book series but i just view them both as different telling of the same story..

D&D stopped consulting with George. They don't even let him in the writer's room anymore... which is kind of a dick move to shun the creator that way and a bit arrogant to basically say "we can tell your story better than you" type thing. D&D rocketed through the first few books in the beginning, skipped a few storylines altogether and are now backpedaling a little.

George once said that HBO could add aliens and there is nothing he can do about it so that may explain why things don't add up, even if you are a show only watcher like my husband and my sister. (of course I can't find that quote right now)

I agree with your statement about TV/Movie adaptions are never as good. Some may come close, but there are way more "off" parts than good in most cases.

http://uproxx.com/tv/2015/06/george-rr-martin-showrunner-war/2/

As to the OP, I would like to see Barristan survive the battle in Meereen and travel back to KL. Maybe he meets back up with Jamie just before Jamie dies, Barristan sees the good in Jamie, then after Jamie dies he gets to fill in Jamie's portion in the big book since that has worried at Jamie for a while now. This will give Barristan a chance to see Cersei again and knock her off her Mad Queen rocker that this "old man" is still surviving and is thriving with someone that will supersede her when she is (in short time) gone, gone, gone.

[aryagonnakill#2]

It is very possible.  George faked you out.  You are not considering the possibilities.

Burning =/= dead, necessarily.  Dany was burning as well.  Twice.  First in the Bonfire, later in the Pit.  Quentyn is a just bit more panicky. 

Dany only gets her hair burnt in the pit, and the pyre was a one off event, the exact details of what happened we can only guess at, I like to think MMD's life paid for hers.  Quentyn feels fire all over his body, and then screams, and then we're shown a burnt body with his 3 friends seeming really sad.  

The Tattered prince isn't even in the pyramid when they open the doors to the dragon area, and as per his deal with Barristan he is suppose to be rescuing the hostages, there is no reason for us to have seen the Tattered Prince in any of the sample chapters of the last Barristan chapter in Dance.  I'm also not sure what purpose the deception would serve.

Perhaps if you can elaborate on why you think they are pulling the ruse and why you think it would be the Tattered prince rather than any of the other people who we saw there like any of the Windblown with Pretty Merris I could be more open to it.

[ChillyPolly]

Dany only gets her hair burnt in the pit [1], and the pyre was a one off event [2], the exact details of what happened we can only guess at, I like to think MMD's life paid for hers.  Quentyn feels fire all over his body, and then screams [3], and then we're shown a burnt body [4] with his 3 friends seeming really sad [5].  

The Tattered prince isn't even in the pyramid [6] when they open the doors to the dragon area, and as per his deal with Barristan he is suppose to be rescuing the hostages [7], there is no reason for us to have seen the Tattered Prince in any of the sample chapters of the last Barristan chapter in Dance.  I'm also not sure what purpose the deception would serve.

Perhaps if you can elaborate on why you think they are pulling the ruse [8] and why you think it would be the Tattered prince rather than any of the other people [9] who we saw there like any of the Windblown with Pretty Merris I could be more open to it.

[1] Yes.  That also happens in the pyre.

[2] I guess you could say the pyre and the pit were both one-off events.  Maybe Quentyn was a one-off event too.  There is no need to argue that any of these events are identical.  If these are indeed things we "can only guess at", then my guess is that Quentyn survived his burning.

[3] Sure, but that by itself does not rule out survival.  Lots of people have been on fire, and screamed, and lived to tell of it.  And that's not even considering supernatural or mystical forces aiding his survival (as happened twice with Dany), which we cannot rule out either.

[4]  That's where the fake out occurs.  A lot of time happens between us seeing Quentyn screaming and us being shown the burnt body.  We don't really know what happened in the interim.  We just think we do.

[5]  Quentyn has only 2 friends, only one of them seems particularly sad, and the one who seems sad (Gerris) is a faker and natural actor previously noted in the text to be incapable of genuine grief, but good at phony grief.  The one who actually cared about Quentyn (Archie, the guy with the burned hands) does not seem particularly sad.

[6]  I'm convinced Tatters was at the dragon area.  Tatters is a nondescript man who (so he tells us) likes to appear incognito.  No less than FOUR nondescript masked incognito Windblown were at the dragon pit.  I'd say that was pretty clever of GRRM.  If he had given us only ONE nondescript masked incognito Windblown, everyone would have known it was Tatters.  But he gives us FOUR of them, and everyone ignores them as unimportant.   Note also that the Dornishmen have concluded that killing the dragons was Tatters' plan all along, and, if this is true, it follows that Meris was lying about Tatters' whereabouts.

[7] Barristan never made a deal with Tatters, only with the Dornishmen.  Gerris has an objection to the plan he cannot discuss in front of Barristan (like maybe "how can we make a deal with a dead man?").  Archie overrules Gerris' objection for reasons he does not want to discuss in front of Barristan either (he's got ideas).  They both know something we don't.

[8]  That question is too obvious.  Quentyn was on a secret mission to steal and/or tame dragons.  If he is still alive, and the mission is not over, and he still has a chance of success with at least one dragon, then that is obviously going to be kept a secret for as long as possible.

[9]  (1) The dying man does not object when addressed as "prince".  (2) The Dornishmen have a secret objection to the idea of a mission to see Tatters, which they cannot discuss in front of Barristan, which would make sense if they knew Tatters to be dead.  (3)  Gerris was found standing over the dying man with a sword, and he has no reason to be angry at a random dying Windblown.  (4)  The Dornishmen clearly believe that Meris was lying about Tatters, when asked where he was - he was NOT preparing the ship, because that was never the plan.

[AerionBrightflameII]

D&D stopped consulting with George. They don't even let him in the writer's room anymore... which is kind of a dick move to shun the creator that way and a bit arrogant to basically say "we can tell your story better than you" type thing. D&D rocketed through the first few books in the beginning, skipped a few storylines altogether and are now backpedaling a little.

George once said that HBO could add aliens and there is nothing he can do about it so that may explain why things don't add up, even if you are a show only watcher like my husband and my sister. (of course I can't find that quote right now)

I agree with your statement about TV/Movie adaptions are never as good. Some may come close, but there are way more "off" parts than good in most cases.

http://uproxx.com/tv/2015/06/george-rr-martin-showrunner-war/2/

As to the OP, I would like to see Barristan survive the battle in Meereen and travel back to KL. Maybe he meets back up with Jamie just before Jamie dies, Barristan sees the good in Jamie, then after Jamie dies he gets to fill in Jamie's portion in the big book since that has worried at Jamie for a while now. This will give Barristan a chance to see Cersei again and knock her off her Mad Queen rocker that this "old man" is still surviving and is thriving with someone that will supersede her when she is (in short time) gone, gone, gone.

I know they did haha he should have double checked the contract  . The novels are so enormously huge though no idea why GRRM or D&D thought 10 episodes in 7 Seasons would ever be able to fit it all in. All im saying is when they started they were pretty much guaranteed the books would be pretty much done and when you have to work on a series like this they will have to twist and cut scenes and parts to make it viewable. GRRM refused to write a script this season which was probably for the best, considering the amount of pressure people are giving him to finish. I don't think any one party is to blame but it really gets to me when people just spit on it because it's not verbatim like the books.

 

Found the same with all novels that go big screen...

 

I would also like Barristan to find out about the Wildfire plot and give Jaime a bit of a reprieve.

 

 

[Regular John Umber]

[4]  That's where the fake out occurs.  A lot of time happens between us seeing Quentyn screaming and us being shown the burnt body.  We don't really know what happened in the interim.  We just think we do

 

Another oddity in this moment is the fact that Gerris (?) is standing over the body with a sword. Why would he be doing that? He could be in shock and not be aware of what he is doing, or acting on impulse. OR he could have just attempted to kill the man at his feet to keep him from speaking.

[AerionBrightflameII]

I think it was just shock, he drew his sword when he slew the Brazen Beast and kept it drawn.

They weren't in there long when Quentyn was burned. Archibald was beating the flames and cradling his body when they arrived a Drink was just stood there..

 

He is dead though. 

[ChillyPolly]

I think it was just shock, he drew his sword when he slew the Brazen Beast and kept it drawn.

They weren't in there long when Quentyn was burned. Archibald was beating the flames and cradling his body when they arrived a Drink was just stood there..

The glib unflappable Gerris (Drink) did not go into shock at the deaths of his other friends.  What is different now?

Archie was not beating out the flames when the guards arrived.  That he must have done something of the sort earlier (presumably for Quentyn, but perhaps not for the dying man) is evidenced by his burnt hands, not by anything the guards saw directly.

When the guards arrived, Archie was cradling the dying man's head, and Gerris was standing over him with a sword.  Gerris immediately throws away his sword when the guards arrive.  I think they were having an argument about whether to slit Tatters' throat.  Of course the guards, and Barristan, reached other conclusions.

[The Fattest Leech]

This discussion is interesting and I am enjoying it even if I don't agree with certain suggestions... But only time will tell. 

The one thing that did come to mind about the fact that dead Q smiling in the death bed reminded me of the big deal about Tywin and how he was "smiling" in his death bed. It took a chapter or two but Pycelle clarified that Tywins body had began to dry out and that it made it appear as if he was smiling in his death bed. 

[ChillyPolly]

The one thing that did come to mind about the fact that dead Q smiling in the death bed reminded me of the big deal about Tywin and how he was "smiling" in his death bed. It took a chapter or two but Pycelle clarified that Tywins body had began to dry out and that it made it appear as if he was smiling in his death bed. 

Tywin's dying smile has no "rational" significance, for the reasons stated by Pycelle.  But it could end up having some symbolic or literary significance, as a foreshadowing.  I can't guess what that could be, though.

Same with the Smile of the Dying Prince.  As Barristan objects, how can you tell he is smiling if he has no lips?  So rationally, how can this mean anything?

But the Smile of the Dying Prince reflects back on:  

Smiles had never come easily for Quentyn Martell, any more than they did for his lord father.

  

[AerionBrightflameII]

The glib unflappable Gerris (Drink) did not go into shock at the deaths of his other friends.  What is different now?

Archie was not beating out the flames when the guards arrived.  That he must have done something of the sort earlier (presumably for Quentyn, but perhaps not for the dying man) is evidenced by his burnt hands, not by anything the guards saw directly.

When the guards arrived, Archie was cradling the dying man's head, and Gerris was standing over him with a sword.  Gerris immediately throws away his sword when the guards arrive.  I think they were having an argument about whether to slit Tatters' throat.  Of course the guards, and Barristan, reached other conclusions.

 

Haha his best friend, his prince, the man he swore to guard and keep alive gets roasted by a Dragon right in front of his eyes and he'd just shrug it off? That is ludicrous. 

What exactly are you suggesting? Quentyn gets roasted by Dragon flame and his two sworn shields put the fire out then hide him and then switch him with anther dying corpse then Cradle it until the Guards arrive? For the purpose of what? 

 

His prince was dying so he tossed his sword away instead of fighting because there was no longer any point,

Im sorry i just cant see how he can be alive.