The Tattered prince (and ser Baristtan)

[ChillyPolly]

 

Haha his best friend, his prince, the man he swore to guard and keep alive gets roasted by a Dragon right in front of his eyes and he'd just shrug it off? That is ludicrous [1]. 

What exactly are you suggesting? [2] Quentyn gets roasted by Dragon flame and his two sworn shields put the fire 3] out then hide him and then switch him with anther dying corpse then Cradle it until the Guards arrive? For the purpose of what? [4] 

His prince was dying so he tossed his sword away instead of fighting [5] because there was no longer any point,

Im sorry i just cant see how he can be alive.

[1] What are you talking about.  Gerris is never said to be Quent's "best friend".  You made that up, and then howl "ludicrous".  What we know about Gerris is that he is the sort of person who sees friends die and treats it as a game.  Any oaths he took are irrelevant, because nobody is even claiming he broke any.  I'm not saying he can't be loyal in his own way, but there is no reason to suppose he would be particularly upset, and every reason to suppose he would not be.

[2] I'm suggesting that Quentyn survived, probably with only minor injuries, and left the scene, either on his own legs or on Viserion's back, leaving his allies behind.  You know, kind of like Dany did with Drogon.  His co-conspirators are covering for him, because his mission to tame/steal a dragon is not over.

[3]  Only Archie helped put out flames (notice how Gerris' hands were NOT burned).  It is not unusual, when hands are used to put out hair fires, that the hands are injured but the scalp is not.

[4] Did I not already answer this question, above in this thread?

[5] Then why the strange timing?  Throw the sword down the instant guards show up?  Surely it was even more pointless BEFORE they showed up.  A sword is not much help in comforting a dying friend.

[AerionBrightflameII]

[1] What are you talking about.  Gerris is never said to be Quent's "best friend".  You made that up, and then howl "ludicrous".  What we know about Gerris is that he is the sort of person who sees friends die and treats it as a game.  Any oaths he took are irrelevant, because nobody is even claiming he broke any.  I'm not saying he can't be loyal in his own way, but there is no reason to suppose he would be particularly upset, and every reason to suppose he would not be.

[2] I'm suggesting that Quentyn survived, probably with only minor injuries, and left the scene, either on his own legs or on Viserion's back, leaving his allies behind.  You know, kind of like Dany did with Drogon.  His co-conspirators are covering for him, because his mission to tame/steal a dragon is not over.

[3]  Only Archie helped put out flames (notice how Gerris' hands were NOT burned).  It is not unusual, when hands are used to put out hair fires, that the hands are injured but the scalp is not.

[4] Did I not already answer this question, above in this thread?

[5] Then why the strange timing?  Throw the sword down the instant guards show up?  Surely it was even more pointless BEFORE they showed up.  A sword is not much help in comforting a dying friend.

Ugh.. just wrote a really long reply but then the site temporarily when down 

 

They traveled around the world together, he is one of his sworn shields it's natural they are friends after what they went through. What we know about Gerris is that he is handsome, cocky, arrogant and overly confident. His oaths are important. he is a Knight who swore to keep his prince safe. And then said Prince was just blasted with Dragon Fire right infront of him. To claim he could just shrug it off is "Ludacris" because the whole journey is rendered null, three friends are dead and one mortally wounded burning to death..

 

What i meant about what are you suggesting is how are you suggesting he survived? His whole body was coated in Dragon flame, he was screaming in agony the last time he was seen. The Sellswords escaped and the crossbow man who was killed was half eaten so he couldn't have been switched with him...I see no way he could be alive..

 

Yes Archie has been described as made of the true steel, where as Gerris was described as "False Coin". So in the end it was Archie who beat out the flames and Gerris just stood their frozen in shock after watching Quentyn burn.

 

Gerris was in total shock, thats what shock does, muddles your mind makes you slow to react, he just stood there when the guards arrived if he hadn't thrown away the sword he would have been treated as a hostile. His prince was mortally injured and dying what purpose would fighting do?

[ChillyPolly]

What i meant about what are you suggesting is how are you suggesting he survived? His whole body was coated in Dragon flame, he was screaming in agony the last time he was seen. The Sellswords escaped and the crossbow man who was killed was half eaten so he couldn't have been switched with him...I see no way he could be alive..

I'm suggesting he survived more or less in the same way Dany survived.

The text does not say "his whole body was coated in Dragon flame".  It merely says he felt a "furnace wind".  The text says the exact same thing about Dany in the Pit.  The text says he "was burning".  The text says the exact same thing about Dany in the Pit.  You're just assuming "his whole body was coated in Dragon flame" because you saw the condition of the body.  But it might not be the same body.  George faked you out.

Since the incident, Quentyn must be much more comfy than Dany has been during the same period.  Dany has been living with Drogon on a rock, and living on burnt meat.  Quentyn, presumably, has been living with Viserion in a well furnished and fully stocked pyramid, only recently abandoned.

The text does not say he started "screaming in agony".  It merely says he "started screaming".  The text had previously established he was panicky about burning.  Many people have caught fire and lived to tell of it, without even the need for mystical explanations.  I'm sure 99% of them screamed when they realized they were on fire.  Sometimes the person who smothers the flames with his hands suffers greater injury than the person who caught fire.

As to your last comment.  Sure.  If you assume all the Windblown left the scene, and Quentyn did not leave the scene, then the Dying Man cannot be Quentyn.  But now you're not arguing the theory is wrong, based on the text.  You're merely assuming it is, based only on what you assume, and upon what Gerris-the-false-coin tells Barristan.  We were not there.  We don't actually know what happened. 

Since we don't know what happened, perhaps the guy with the crossbow was not the only masked incognito Windblown who was hurt.  And since there was time for the Rhaegar, Viserion, Caggo, Meris, and at least 2 Windblown to leave the scene, before the guards arrived, then there was time for Quentyn to leave the scene as well.

[AerionBrightflameII]

I'm suggesting he survived more or less in the same way Dany survived.

The text does not say "his whole body was coated in Dragon flame".  It merely says he felt a "furnace wind".  The text says the exact same thing about Dany in the Pit.  The text says he "was burning".  The text says the exact same thing about Dany in the Pit.  You're just assuming "his whole body was coated in Dragon flame" because you saw the condition of the body.  But it might not be the same body.  George faked you out.

Since the incident, Quentyn must be much more comfy than Dany has been during the same period.  Dany has been living with Drogon on a rock, and living on burnt meat.  Quentyn, presumably, has been living with Viserion in a well furnished and fully stocked pyramid, only recently abandoned.

The text does not say he started "screaming in agony".  It merely says he "started screaming".  The text had previously established he was panicky about burning.  Many people have caught fire and lived to tell of it, without even the need for mystical explanations.  I'm sure 99% of them screamed when they realized they were on fire.  Sometimes the person who smothers the flames with his hands suffers greater injury than the person who caught fire.

As to your last comment.  Sure.  If you assume all the Windblown left the scene, and Quentyn did not leave the scene, then the Dying Man cannot be Quentyn.  But now you're not arguing the theory is wrong, based on the text.  You're merely assuming it is, based only on what you assume, and upon what Gerris-the-false-coin tells Barristan.  We were not there.  We don't actually know what happened. 

Since we don't know what happened, perhaps the guy with the crossbow was not the only masked incognito Windblown who was hurt.  And since there was time for the Rhaegar, Viserion, Caggo, Meris, and at least 2 Windblown to leave the scene, before the guards arrived, then there was time for Quentyn to leave the scene as well.

"Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal. When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream."

Actually it says it right here. All of him was burning, the only way he could all be burning was if all of him was on fire. Then he started screaming. When Dany burned in the Dothraki Sea she wasn't screaming, neither was she screaming in pain in the Fighting Pits. Quentyn was screaming. There is no way he climbed up on the Dragons back while on fire and why would Archie cradle the head of a Windblown Crossbow man?

 

He is the only man from the Windblown who was mentioned getting slain, he was killed then Meriis and the others ran, the Dragon landed and was looking between the Sellswords and the Dornishmen. They got away and Quentyn tried to tame the Dragon Viserion while Rhaegal came from behind and burned him.

 

 

 

[ChillyPolly]

"Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal. When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream."

Actually it says it right here. All of him was burning, the only way he could all be burning was if all of him was on fire. Then he started screaming. When Dany burned in the Dothraki Sea she wasn't screaming, neither was she screaming in pain in the Fighting Pits. Quentyn was screaming. There is no way he climbed up on the Dragons back while on fire and why would Archie cradle the head of a Windblown Crossbow man?

 

He is the only man from the Windblown who was mentioned getting slain, he was killed then Meriis and the others ran, the Dragon landed and was looking between the Sellswords and the Dornishmen. They got away and Quentyn tried to tame the Dragon Viserion while Rhaegal came from behind and burned him.

Yes, it says "it" right there.  But you have just changed "it" from "was coated in dragon flame" to "was burning".  As I said, Dany was burning too, when she met Drogon in the Pit.

Her hair was afire. I saw that too. She was burning … and if I did not see her fall, hundreds swear they did.

Later, Dany compares her experience in the bonfire to that in the Pit.

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak's Pit.

Which is perhaps not quite true, as Dany did suffer some burns from Daznak's Pit.

You cannot be too literal about "all of him was burning".  If all of him was burning, then so were his eyes, and if his eyes were burning than how could he see?  If you go too far in that direction, it will only prove his mystical fire resistance, giving him the power to look straight into a furnace wind hot enough to ignite leather.

You're right that Dany did not scream.  Quentyn is more panicky than than Dany, and his terror of burning was carefully established and set up.  In order to show that it is possible Quentyn survived, I only need show that the events are similar, not that they are identical.  Quentyn might even have been more badly burned than Dany was.  I hear Loras was pretty badly burned, but few people assume he must be a goner.

Why would Archie cradle Tatters' head?  Maybe to stop Gerris from slitting his throat.  I already answered this question.  You're making me work far too hard here.  Or maybe to fool the guards.  That could work too.

Your last paragraph is just goofy.  You say there cannot have been an extra injured Windblown (besides the dead crossbowman) because George would have "mentioned" it.  Why would he tell you?  We only know what Gerris-the-liar told Barristan, and Gerris would not have told Barristan about this because that would give the game away.  We know what Barristan knows, and we're dealing with an author who likes to fool his readers.

It was never mentioned that the millers' sons had gone missing when Bran and Rickon's heads were mounted on spikes.  So Tatters, or some other extra Windblown, not returning from the Dragon Pit would not necessarily be mentioned either.

[AerionBrightflameII]

Yes, it says "it" right there.  But you have just changed "it" to "was coated in dragon flame" to "was burning".  As I said, Dany was burning too, when she met Drogon in the Pit.

Her hair was afire. I saw that too. She was burning … and if I did not see her fall, hundreds swear they did.

Later, Dany compares her experience in the bonfire to that in the Pit.

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak's Pit.

Which is perhaps not quite true, as Dany did suffer some burns from Daznak's Pit.

You cannot be too literal about "all of him was burning".  If all of him was burning, then so were his eyes, and if his eyes were burning than how could he see?  If you go too far in that direction, it will only prove his mystical fire resistance, giving him the power to look straight into a furnace wind hot enough to ignite leather.

You're right that Dany did not scream.  Quentyn is more panicky than than Dany, and his terror of burning was carefully established and set up.  In order to show that it is possible Quentyn survived, I only need show that the events are similar, not that they are identical.  Quentyn might even have been more badly burned than Dany was.  I hear Loras was pretty badly burned, but few people assume he must be a goner.

Why would Archie cradle Tatters' head?  Maybe to stop Gerris from slitting his throat.  I already answered this question.  You're making me work far too hard here.  Or maybe to fool the guards.  That could work too.

Your last paragraph is just goofy.  You say there cannot have been an extra injured Windblown (besides the dead crossbowman) because George would have "mentioned" it.  Why would he tell you?  We only know what Gerris-the-liar told Barristan, and Gerris would not have told Barristan about this because that would give the game away.  We know what Barristan knows, and we're dealing with an author who likes to fool his readers.

Hahaha this is getting ridiculous....There is no proof to what you say, your whole argument is hypothetical at best.  

There is no evidence to suggest Quentyn is fire proof or has the same protection as Dany and using her mystical fire protection to prove Quentyn's fire proof with no evidence is a fallacy.  Im being literal about him burning all over because he said himself he was burning all over. Then he started screaming because he was in agony.

Why are you mentioning Loras Tyrell? There was no POV when he was burnt thats why there is speculation.

Quentyn was burnt in his own POV, then had his burnt corpse shown in Ser Barristan's POV. Thats why im saying he is dead,

Archie says he is dead, Ser Barristan says he is dead. He is dead.

 

Im saying nobody else was killed because Quentyn watched the whole thing, watched the Crossbowman fire, then get killed and watched the Sellswords run, then attempting to tame it, nobody else was mentioned.

[ChillyPolly]

There is no proof to what you say, your whole argument is hypothetical at best.

Huh?  I thought it was understood we were discussing a theory.  If you want hard proof, you have to wait for book 6.

[AerionBrightflameII]

Huh?  I thought it was understood we were discussing a theory.  If you want hard proof, you have to wait for book 6.

I know it's a theory. Im just saying... The guys dead..

[ChillyPolly]

I know it's a theory. Im just saying... The guys dead..

Fine.  You have declared it to be so.  

For a while there I thought you might have been interested in discussing whether the theory was possible.  Now you are challenging me to prove that the theory could not possibly be wrong.

[AerionBrightflameII]

Fine.  You have declared it to be so.  

For a while there I thought you might have been interested in discussing whether the theory was possible.  Now you are challenging me to prove that the theory could not possibly be wrong.

Sigh im so tired haha, lets just say stalemate..haha 

[The Human Abstract]

I always find this one fascinating because this sort of crazy thing happens throughout the books and there are several fishy clues hidden in the Quentyn storyline.  It's a stretch, but the way people react so vehemently you'd think it was way more of a stretch than that.

[Relic]

I always find this one fascinating because this sort of crazy thing happens throughout the books and there are several fishy clues hidden in the Quentyn storyline.  It's a stretch, but the way people react so vehemently you'd think it was way more of a stretch than that.

What "fishy" clues? I have to say the fact that Quentyn might have survived never occurred to me, any of the four times i read aDwD. Hmmm. 

[ChillyPolly]

What "fishy" clues? I have to say the fact that Quentyn might have survived never occurred to me, any of the four times i read aDwD. Hmmm. 

(1) Q's body, that we are shown, is burnt beyond recognition.  Come on.  Tell me that's not fishy.

(2) Gerris, the man who shows the most grief for Q's death, is previously noted in the text as a good actor who treats the death of friends as a game, and is good at fake eulogies.  Meanwhile Archie, the man who actually cared about Q (evidenced by his burnt hands) does not show any grief, and seems to have other things on his mind.

(3) Suspicious gap between Q screaming and the reader being shown the body; during which 2 dragons and 5 people left the scene completely.  3 of the people who (supposedly) left the scene were dressed identically to Q, and had similarly nondescript build.

(4) Gerris found by guards standing over the Dying Man with a sword; but immediately throws his sword away when they appear. 

(5) The Tattered Prince is an ordinary looking man who (he says) likes to appear incognito.  In the dragon pit, there are no less than 4 nondescript, masked, incognito Windblown.

(6) Per Meris, the Tattered Prince was at the ship at the time, preparing to transport the dragons.  But Archie suspects that the Tattered Prince meant only to kill the dragons.  If he is right, Meris must have been lying.  So if the Tattered Prince was not at the ship, where was he?

(7) The dying man's weird dying smile.  But smiles did not come easily to Q.

(8) The Tattered Prince, recognizable at a distance mainly by his high saddle, mighty steed, and distinctive cloak, is an obvious setup for an identity switch.  When the Tattered Prince re-appears, it might not be the same man (and he may be riding an even mightier steed, like Viserion perhaps?).

(9) Gerris and Archie are hiding something from Barristan that relates to his proposed mission to the Tattered Prince.

(10) Q seemed to be making progress with Viserion before he was attacked by Rhaegal.

(11) Viserion has made his lair in a recently abandoned, and fully stocked, pyramid; and everyone leaves him be.  This is a prefect hiding place for would-be dragon-tamer to rest, heal, and cement his relationship with Viserion.

(12) Q dreams of fire and blood

(13) Q is the right age to be the real Baby Aegon

(14) Q was fostered with the Yronwoods as a blood price as (in place of?) Doran's son.

(15) Arianne barely knows her brother Q.

(16) Q's mom is currently in Essos, separated from all her children, despite that she was adamantly opposed to such separation, and despite Doran's claim that he was unwilling to do this to her.  Is she really separated from all her children?

(17) Meanwhile, a mysterious Septa Lemore, who has borne children and is the right age to be Melario, is running around with a boy that is supposedly Baby Aegon, but who may in fact be the real son of Doran and Melario.

(18) Melario is from Norvos, where the nobility are of the blood of Old Valyria.  Hence, Baby Aegon and Doran's son would not only be of a similar age, but have very similar heritage.

(19) Q's mission seems set up to fail, or at least be given low priority, by Doran.  Are most of his eggs in another basket?

(20) A suspicious amount of time devoted to Q's history and backstory.  All that just to kill him off for yucks?  Really?

(21) Dany needs to bring her dragons to Westeros, or there is no point to them.  A dragonrider for one of them would help.  In the text, Dany explictly tells Q of this problem.

(22) Q's experience in the Dragon Pit, and Dany's experience in Draznak's Pit, are described at times using very similar language (each "was burning" after being exposed to "furnace wind" from a dragon).

[Relic]

(1) Q's body, that we are shown, is burnt beyond recognition.  Come on.  Tell me that's not fishy.

(2) Gerris, the man who shows the most grief for Q's death, is previously noted in the text as a good actor who treats the death of friends as a game, and is good at fake eulogies.  Meanwhile Archie, the man who actually cared about Q (evidenced by his burnt hands) does not show any grief, and seems to have other things on his mind.

(3) Suspicious gap between Q screaming and the reader being shown the body; during which 2 dragons and 5 people left the scene completely.  3 of the people who (supposedly) left the scene were dressed identically to Q, and had similarly nondescript build.

(4) Gerris found by guards standing over the Dying Man with a sword; but immediately throws his sword away when they appear. 

(5) The Tattered Prince is an ordinary looking man who (he says) likes to appear incognito.  In the dragon pit, there are no less than 4 nondescript, masked, incognito Windblown.

(6) Per Meris, the Tattered Prince was at the ship at the time, preparing to transport the dragons.  But Archie suspects that the Tattered Prince meant only to kill the dragons.  If he is right, Meris must have been lying.  So if the Tattered Prince was not at the ship, where was he?

(7) The dying man's weird dying smile.  But smiles did not come easily to Q.

(8) The Tattered Prince, recognizable at a distance mainly by his high saddle, mighty steed, and distinctive cloak, is an obvious setup for an identity switch.  When the Tattered Prince re-appears, it might not be the same man (and he may be riding an even mightier steed, like Viserion perhaps?).

(9) Gerris and Archie are hiding something from Barristan that relates to his proposed mission to the Tattered Prince.

(10) Q seemed to be making progress with Viserion before he was attacked by Rhaegal.

(11) Viserion has made his lair in a recently abandoned, and fully stocked, pyramid; and everyone leaves him be.  This is a prefect hiding place for would-be dragon-tamer to rest, heal, and cement his relationship with Viserion.

(12) Q dreams of fire and blood

(13) Q is the right age to be the real Baby Aegon

(14) Q was fostered with the Yronwoods as a blood price as (in place of?) Doran's son.

(15) Arianne barely knows her brother Q.

(16) Q's mom is currently in Essos, separated from all her children, despite that she was adamantly opposed to such separation, and despite Doran's claim that he was unwilling to do this to her.  Is she really separated from all her children?

(17) Meanwhile, a mysterious Septa Lemore, who has borne children and is the right age to be Melario, is running around with a boy that is supposedly Baby Aegon, but who may in fact be the real son of Doran and Melario.

(18) Melario is from Norvos, where the nobility are of the blood of Old Valyria.  Hence, Baby Aegon and Doran's son would not only be of a similar age, but have very similar heritage.

(19) Q's mission seems set up to fail, or at least be given low priority, by Doran.  Are most of his eggs in another basket?

(20) A suspicious amount of time devoted to Q's history and backstory.  All that just to kill him off for yucks?  Really?

(21) Dany needs to bring her dragons to Westeros, or there is no point to them.  A dragonrider for one of them would help.  In the text, Dany explictly tells Q of this problem.

(22) Q's experience in the Dragon Pit, and Dany's experience in Draznak's Pit, are described at times using very similar language (each "was burning" after being exposed to "furnace wind" from a dragon).

Well, it's an interesting theory, for sure. I'd be shocked if it were true, however. 

[The Human Abstract]

Don't know if anyone caught this in the hubbub of last nights blog post but....umm....

 

George said Quentyn Martell "remains a character in the books".

 

course he also said this about the tattered prince.  

[honeyed chicken]

Don't know if anyone caught this in the hubbub of last nights blog post but....umm....

 

George said Quentyn Martell "remains a character in the books".

 

course he also said this about the tattered prince.  

And he said the same about Dalla.

[ChillyPolly]

Don't know if anyone caught this in the hubbub of last nights blog post but....umm....

 

George said Quentyn Martell "remains a character in the books".

 

course he also said this about the tattered prince.  

Yes, that's very curious.  It went right over my head when I read it (since I believe Quentyn is alive anyway).  Still, I'm not sure I should read anything into it.  I'm sure GRRM did not intend to give anything away, so perhaps I should interpret his words in accordance with his intentions, which was simply to give us a long list of characters who have never appeared in the series, in order to emphasize how different the book and show are, and thereby reassure us about spoilers.

[The Human Abstract]

Haha.  Dalla?  Didn't catch that.