Howland Reed = High Septon 2.0

[LordStoneheart]

Again, I'm not asserting that the septas are the Mormont women. I'm saying that the septas are she-bears, and I use other she-bears to match their descriptions. You're telling me we have no evidence, despite the fact that all the evidence you need is in the OP:

Don't get mad, but I think this, and most of this and other crackpot theories in general, is just a case of confirmation bias. There are only so many ways to describe people.

[willofDorne]

Now I can't stop thinking how similar Howland Reed is to Robin Hood. This can't be an accident, RH to HR, seems like a perfect fit.

Both rob rich to feed the poor.

Both hide in forests with guerrilla tactics for defense

Both raise peasants to fight with them

Both can disguise themselves to infiltrate castles.

At this point, anyone who says Howland Reed isn't the High Septon ^{is just being foolish} Should at least provide some technical argument, character argument or something to found their claim, because if it's not Howland Reed, then who the hell is it?

[Game Of Thrones]

At this point, anyone who says Howland Reed isn't the High Septon is just being foolish, because if it's not Howland Reed, then who the hell is it?

Why the fuck does HS have to be anyone else in particular? That bolded sentence was so ridiculous.

[pobeb]

Don't get mad, but I think this, and most of this and other crackpot theories in general, is just a case of confirmation bias. There are only so many ways to describe people.

Confirmation bias? It's not like I made up those descriptions - they are directly in the text. I've cited it various times for you to reference.

And it isn't simply descriptions which match our known she-bears in the story, it's that glaring similarities to the she-bear carving on the gates of Mormont Keep:

Dacey: "There's a carving on our gate"

“A woman in a bearskin…”

Septa Unella ... with callused hands and homely, scowling features … would growl when she shook the queen awake.

“... with a child in one arm suckling at her breast…”

Septa Scolera ... a sour smell to her, like milk on the verge of going bad.

“... In the other hand she holds a battleaxe.”

Septa Moelle ... a wrinkled face as sharp as the blade of an axe.

The fact is, there isn't any other single group of women described as similarly as the she-bears and the septas.

If believing this makes me biased, then so be it.

[LordStoneheart]

If it's not Howland Reed then it is not Howland Reed. Not everyone is a case of hidden identity. The Sparrow can just be a random septon who was disgruntled by the war. Nothing wrong with that.

pobeb, your citing of the descriptions is not the issue but rather the assertion that they must be connected. confirmation bias means you're seeing direct evidence in favor when they can very easily just be coincidences.

[Game Of Thrones]

Also, wouldn't the Mormonts leave most of their female warriors behind as reserve forces to deal with the Ironborn?

[pobeb]

At this point, anyone who says Howland Reed isn't the High Septon is just being foolish

Why the fuck does HS have to be anyone else in particular? That bolded sentence was so ridiculous.

Hey, tone it down please. People are entitled to their own opinion. Name-calling or cursing at one another is uncalled for. Even worse, that kind of negativity is what gets threads shut down - trust me, I've made that same mistake. So, let's all learn from that, and move forward civilly.

[pobeb]

Also, wouldn't the Mormonts leave most of their female warriors behind as reserve forces to deal with the Ironborn?

No. Most of the North, Mormonts included, went south with Robb - made evident at various times throughout the story.

[Game Of Thrones]

Hey, tone it down please. People are entitled to their own opinion. Name-calling or cursing at one another is uncalled for. Even worse, that kind of negativity is what gets threads shut down - trust me, I've made that same mistake. So, let's all learn from that, and move forward in the civilly.

I agree and apologize to WoD to any offense I may have caused. My cursing was at the idea that HS has to be someone in particular and not at the person though.

[Game Of Thrones]

No. Most of the North, Mormonts included, went south with Robb - made evident at various times throughout the story.

I don't think so. Robb didn't have the time to call all the North. Since Bear Island is even more remote than the Mountains, and many Mountain clansmen were left behind, most Mormont women warriors and many Mormont male warriors must have been left behind.

And I got the impression that the Bear Island women were more of a reserve force.

And since 'every child in Bear Island learns to fear Krakens rising from the sea', they must have left behind more men than the other Northern lords to deal with a possible IB invasion.

ETA: I wouldn't be surprised if only about 10 Bear Island women went south with Robb.

[pobeb]

I don't think so.

Please don't make me quote it for you.

[forestchilde]

That's true.

R+L=J is taken as cannon by many.

HR+HS is just an intriguing theory which I personally like but will not be convinced of one way or another unless I see it in a book. I don't think it's crackpot at all but I'm on the fence with this. FWIW I am 90% convinced by the GNC theory and I firmly believe that the gravedigger is the Hound, be it simply his ambiguous happy ending. HR=HS is not Mance = Rhaegar territory though, to me it's a pretty cool logical leap and I'd love to see it play out.

I'm in agreement with your stance here, although I am a proponent of this theory. It's not crackpot by any means even if it sounds so on first blush. It also dovetails with the GNC; Manderly, et. al. avenge Robb in the north while HR wreaks havoc on Ned's murderers.

Two more pieces of evidence:

Jamie is walking through his camp at Riverrun when he comes upon two washerwomen mounted on the shoulders of two men at arms, jousting in the river.

"Jamie bet a copper star on the blonde girl riding Raff the Sweetling, and lost it when the two of them went down splashing amongst the reeds.

Across the river the wolves were howling,...."

Sparrows are symbolic in literature and myth as psychpomps, spirit-creatures that come to escort the living to the land of the dead. A fitting sobriquet for HR's minions, coming for vengeance.

But the carved stone faces in the chamber are the strongest hint, IMO, though certainly supplemented by all the others Pobeb outlined.

[willofDorne]

People need to read Chapter 28 AFFC especially the middle part where Cersei encounters the High Septon, keeping in mind it is Howland Reed.

[Game Of Thrones]

Please don't make me quote it for you.

Feel free to quote.

[forestchilde]

just some feedback and thoughts

i really like this theory, although if its true the lack of surprise when its revealed will hurt.

about all the description of HS being old and HR being in his 30s, LF is noted to be in his thirties with a streak of gray in his hair. other than his botched duel, not much of a stressful life it seems to cause this weathering. and without doing a textual search, im fairly certain several other characters of younger age are noted to have gray. HR lives in a freaking swamp after surviving a rebellion war and epic battle with the kings guard. i can see him aging a bit harder than most.

his knowledge of the faith is really easy to explain. hes not an idiot. you know what im not? catholic. i can still quote scripture and give a general synopsis of it, and thats with limited intelligence and i havent been travelling for a year on the road with nothing better to do than educate myself on how to be catholic. apple to oranges, but thankfully theyre both made up religions!

i also feel like an idiot for not picking up on the description of the sparrows as a whole which screams northerners.

im working on re-read number-idontknow, so when i get to books 4 and 5, im curious to see if ax comes up more than sword. thats more of a personal note.

I know just how you feel about the letdown if it's true! Which is partly why I won't care if it's not. I'm sure GRRM will make the HR reveal amazing, however it occurs.

[willofDorne]

Another interesting cross theory with Howland Reed also being Robin Hood, this is from the wikipedia.

"The tinker, setting out to capture Robin, only manages to fight with him after he has been cheated out of his money and the arrest warrant he is carrying. In Robin Hood's Golden Prize, Robin disguises himself as a friar and cheats two priests out of their cash. Even when Robin is defeated, he usually tricks his foe into letting him sound his horn, summoning the Merry Men to his aid. When his enemies do not fall for this ruse, he persuades them to drink with him instead."

Sound familiar? Yup, Cersei's two favorite priests now scrubing the floor, and Howland has given all the riches of the Sept to the poor. lol.

[pobeb]

I'm curious, is there anyone in the series described like, or attributed to mud?

The only person I can find is the High Septon - with eyes as brown as mud.

And the crannogmen are known as the "mudmen"

[LordStoneheart]

Quentyn, by a long internal monologue. Is he connected to this somehow?

[pobeb]

Quentyn, by a long internal monologue. Is he connected to this somehow?

Someone describes or attributes him to mud? Citation?

[LordStoneheart]

I can't cite or paste right now but in Barristan's chapter he makes a rather long comparison of Quentyn to mud.

"She wants fire and Dorne sends her mud," is how it goes.

A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 59

To me, a comparison with something so simple as "mud" isn't that great of a connection or proof. Mud is a very common thing. If it was maybe a specialized type of mud (sort of like how Arbor Gold means a lie and not just wine) I might consider an eye description as proof but honestly I think it's just a way to say "his eyes are brown."