Why are the Unsullied so specialized? Where do their puppies come from?

[Victor227]

Tradition is a powerful thing. People will do all sorts of terrible and stupid things so long as their ancestors did it, and I'd imagine that's the basis of training the Unsullied. Their tactics and formations are based on the ancient Ghiscari Empire, and by emulating that, they recapture that 'glorious history'.

Really, Slaver's Bay is trapped in an ancient past of old glories that no longer exist, and their strict adherence to... well, craziness, is a coping mechanism that keeps their society from ever having to be introspective, or evolve in any sense. Really, the entire world is like that though. Westeros has existed in a medieval environment for thousands of years.

[James Arryn]

In order to comment on the viability of the Unsullied as a business, we'd need to know several factors which, so far as I know, we do not.

1) average price per unit of US vs. other military slaves.

2) cost of training per unit of each.

3) regularity and cost of unrest/rebellion/escaping among both

4) cost of oversight needed to prevent 3 for non US vs. US.

5) proportion of breeding among fertile slaves, and cost/gain/lifespan of childhood slaves pre-return

6) average life and service span for each

Etc.

W.V. Harris estimates that slaves in the Roman Empire on average lived less than 20 years. K. Hopkins estimates a few years more. So in part the viability of the US would depend on the expected lifespan of the third who survive, and the ages on average of the 2/3 who don't. Additionally, we would need to contrast with martial slaves/gladiators which were a profitable industry and which would have decent baselines for questions 1-4, possibly 5-6. Some estimates suggest that mines slaves duration of survival could be better measured in months than years, but opinions differ. Otoh, mine slaves, gladiators and the rest were most likely to be captured in war, meaning an older average starting age.

In some respects a lot depends on the Dothraki. As Slaver's Bay is relatively constant, there are no huge wars of conquest which accounted for the bulk of slave acquisitions during the classic age. Therefore the Dothraki represent the combination of soldier acquired and state acquired slaves as a bi-product of warfare, and that makes their pricing scale hugely important to the viability of slavery in SB itself. Breeding would be the second most common issue, but isn't as viable as most seem to assume, because slaves were generally separated by gender for living, duties and lifestyle. The fact that female slaves would receive manumission at a rate of up to 3-4 times that of a male slave would tend to indicate that pregnancy and even marriage with non-slaves was much more likely.

Anyways, starting to dig a bit too deep, but all of this is to suggest that we know too little about the US/non-US practicalities to make accurate assessments. I would suggest that questions 3/4 are very significant. Oversight/security was a significant cost/loss for slavers in general, and in the case of the US that's more than a non-factor; we can assume that the US would themselves serve as oversight/deterrence for local non-US rebellion.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Puppies can be cranked out if it's an ongoing business concern. Seriously, that's not a problem at all. They could train 10X as many Unsullied and it still wouldn't be a problem.

Buying slaves and puppies to kill is not a problem, either. The Unsullied are extremely expensive.

The OP's specialization questions are more puzzling. OK, they're conservative and model themselves off of Old Ghis, but this is Big Business! Innovate or die.

[Narvi]

Apparently military tactics haven't really changed in the last 200 years. That would leave heavy calvary the most lethal part of the army. With the constant threat of mounted attack by Dothraki a highly disciplined legion that won't run ever seems to be a logical choice. Also alot cheaper to maintain. Don't have to worry about horses, arrows or bows. You just give them a spear, shield and a helmet and you're good to go. They eat dogs over there so I'm sure there's more than enough dog breeders. It's not like it's very hard to breed dogs.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Apparently military tactics haven't really changed in the last 200 years. That would leave heavy calvary the most lethal part of the army. With the constant threat of mounted attack by Dothraki a highly disciplined legion that won't run ever seems to be a logical choice. Also alot cheaper to maintain. Don't have to worry about horses, arrows or bows. You just give them a spear, shield and a helmet and you're good to go. They eat dogs over there so I'm sure there's more than enough dog breeders. It's not like it's very hard to breed dogs.

Nah, military tactics in Slavers Bay hasn't really changed in the last 2,000 years. Because they haven't experienced a war since the Valyrians subjugated Old Ghis.

The Dothraki never attack Slavers Bay because that's were they sell their slaves.

Westeros or the Disputed Territories now...

[Narvi]

I used 200 years because of the death of dragons. Before that dragons were the ultimate force.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I used 200 years because of the death of dragons. Before that dragons were the ultimate force.

In Westeros. Which is something entirely different from Slavers Bay. In Slavers Bay, the dragons died 400 years ago. Or rather it was Old Ghis who last fought any battles because later the dragons prevented any battles from happening.

[Game Of Thrones]

Cutting off the boys' genitalia would provide sausage skins too.

Really?

[No Song so Sweet]

Jon of the (Evil) Dead, on 20 Aug 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

How does it feel to be dead inside?

Better than being dead outside, pun intended!

[OldGimletEye]

Puppies can be cranked out if it's an ongoing business concern. Seriously, that's not a problem at all. They could train 10X as many Unsullied and it still wouldn't be a problem.

Buying slaves and puppies to kill is not a problem, either. The Unsullied are extremely expensive.

The OP's specialization questions are more puzzling. OK, they're conservative and model themselves off of Old Ghis, but this is Big Business! Innovate or die.

Why isn't buying slaves to kill not a problem again? Killing N number of slaves to produce one unsullied seems to be extraordinary expensive. Even if the accounting cost of slaves is quite low, the opportunity cost certainly must be quite high.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Why isn't buying slaves to kill not a problem again? Killing N number of slaves to produce one unsullied seems to be extraordinary expensive. Even if the accounting cost of slaves is quite low, the opportunity cost certainly must be quite high.

...because untrained slaves are dirt cheap and Unsullied with all their reputation are worth a lot. As well as training motivated slaves being damn expensive.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Better than being dead outside, pun intended!

Touche

[Hodor the Articulate]

How do plants and animals survive the long winters? After Cersei burnt down the hand's tower, how did they put out the fire? How did Batman go through so many Robins in such a short span of time? IDK, I could never bring myself to obsess over plot minutiae like this. I can't even be bothered thinking up rationalisations.

[Archmaester Drew]

Nah, military tactics in Slavers Bay hasn't really changed in the last 2,000 years. Because they haven't experienced a war since the Valyrians subjugated Old Ghis.

The Dothraki never attack Slavers Bay because that's were they sell their slaves.

Westeros or the Disputed Territories now...

Where do you get the 2000 years ago figure for the defeat of Old Ghis? I haven't been able to find a firm date on that for my archaeological sequences I've been constructing. I've got the defeat of Old Ghis at around 800 years ago, after which they also expanded west displaced the Rhyonar (Nymeria and the 10,000 ships) and founded the Free Cities.

:)

[James Arryn]

Hodor? Hodor Hodor? Hodor. Hodor? Hodor!!

And yet you have overcome the greatest in-universe obstruction known to mankind.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Where do you get the 2000 years ago figure for the defeat of Old Ghis? I haven't been able to find a firm date on that for my archaeological sequences I've been constructing. I've got the defeat of Old Ghis at around 800 years ago, after which they also expanded west displaced the Rhyonar (Nymeria and the 10,000 ships) and founded the Free Cities.

:)

Meh, I just took the 200 years ten times as a figure of speech.

It was somewhere between 1000 and 5000 years ago, can't be more exact.

[Archmaester Drew]

Meh, I just took the 200 years ten times as a figure of speech.

It was somewhere between 1000 and 5000 years ago, can't be more exact.

Valyria warred with Old Ghis for a long time and finally defeated them in the fifth war, where upon they looked west for expansion, defeating the Rhoynar and displacing some groups (Nymeria) and assimilating the others. So the Valyrian Freehold was limited to the Valyrian Peninsula from about 5000 years ago until about 1000 years ago, and the empire was from about 1000 years ago to The Doom, 400 years ago.

So, probably about 1000 years ago.

:)

[Game Of Thrones]

The Ghiscari Empire fell over 5000 years ago, according to one of Dany's chapters.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Valyria warred with Old Ghis for a long time and finally defeated them in the fifth war, where upon they looked west for expansion, defeating the Rhoynar and displacing some groups (Nymeria) and assimilating the others. So the Valyrian Freehold was limited to the Valyrian Peninsula from about 5000 years ago until about 1000 years ago, and the empire was from about 1000 years ago to The Doom, 400 years ago.

So, probably about 1000 years ago.

:)

There's still an unknown timespan between the end of the last Ghiscari war and Nymeria's flight.

The Ghiscari Empire fell over 5000 years ago, according to one of Dany's chapters.

And we all know how reliable such dates are. According to several different chapters the Andal Invasion was 6,000, 4,000 or 2,000 years ago. And that's sourced a lot better than Old Ghis.

[Hodor's Dragon]

...because untrained slaves are dirt cheap and Unsullied with all their reputation are worth a lot. As well as training motivated slaves being damn expensive.

Baby slaves are worth something pretty close to nothing. They have to be fed and housed for at least 2-3 years before they can perform even rudimentary tasks, and a good 7-8 years before they can be given real work.