Wow, I never noticed that v. 7

[Lost Melnibonean]

Can I go back a few pages? This is a reference to the scene at Oldstones, where Robb and Cat converse by Tristifer Mudd's tomb.

Frozenfire 3 sees this scene as a clue supporting R+L=J, showing a link between Rhaegar and Jon. I disagree with parts of it, and see it as foreshadowing the Red Wedding, with the figure on the lid representing Robb. Here's why:

The figure on the tomb lid is crowned and bearded, but the face is unrecognizable. Rhaegar wore neither crown nor beard. Robb wears both.

Tristifer Mudd won all his battles but the last. Robb won all his battles, but lost the war and his life.

Brown (Stark/Lyanna's hair colouring) grass spreads amongst ash (Targaryen/Rhaegar's one).

Stark hair is dark brown, but brown grass is tan. Likewise, Targ hair is silver-gold/silver/platinum, not ash grey.

Wild roses (Lyanna) creeps up over the king's feet almost to his chest (they touch his heart).

Lyanna is not associated with wild roses. She is linked with blue winter roses. This is important, because wild roses have a significance of their own - they are historically a symbol of secrecy and confidentiality.

The Latin expression "sub rosa" (literally, "under the rose") means something told in secret.

In ancient Rome, a wild rose was placed on the door to a room where confidential matters were being discussed.

Paintings of roses on the ceilings of Roman banquet rooms were also a reminder that things said under the influence of wine (sub vino) should also remain sub rosa.

In the Middle Ages a rose suspended from the ceiling of a council chamber similarly pledged all present (those under the rose) to secrecy.

In Christian symbolism, the phrase "sub rosa" has a special place in confessions. Pictures of five-petalled roses were often carved on confessionals, indicating that the conversations would remain secret.

In the 16th century, the symbol of Henry VIII of England was the stylised Tudor dynasty rose. A large image of the rose covered the ceiling of the private chamber where decisions of state were made in secret.

In current times, the term is used by the Scottish Government for a specific series of "off the record" meetings.

Here's some info from Wikipedia- (some of which I cited above).

Sub Rosa - Wikipedia

Wild roses appear three times in aSoIaF, all of which can be linked to conspiracies.

Chett's Bouquet from aSoS prologue

Chett is leading a conspiracy against the officers of the NW.

Aegon's Garden (Davos II, aSoS)

This is the scene where Davos meets Edric Storm. Davos will later lead a conspiracy to remove Edric from Dragonstone.

And wild roses are wrapping themselves around the figure on the lid of Tristifer's tomb at Oldstones. The figure represents Robb, and he is almost completely ensnared by the Bolton-Frey-Lannister conspiracy by this point. Grey Wind stands on the tomb to try to call Robb's attention to it, but Robb doesn't see the link.

Interesting possibility. Thanks.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Keeping it in the family: Gatehouse Ami & the Strongboar are likely cousins. But then there's nothing unusual about that in Westeros.

[HexMachina]

Keeping it in the family: Gatehouse Ami & the Strongboar are likely cousins. But then there's nothing unusual about that in Westeros.

They'd be more distant cousins than even Tywin and Joanna though. Amerei Frey's grandmother was a Crakehall, her mother was a Darry, her father a Frey. We also don't know how Amarei Crakehall was related to the main branch. Their familial relationship wouldn't be that close.

[Aquissya]

I never noticed that Ned's mom is never mentioned until my re-read. It was driving me crazy, I was sure that it was in ACoK but it's not. It's NEVER mentioned. This either means it's not important at all or it's very important. With GRRM's obsession with family trees and, especially, naming his characters, it seems to me that this will be very important.

Also, I never noticed how Sam acts like Jon's "hand" throughout the novels. And how frustrating Ned Stark is once you know about the Wot5K.

Finally, I never really appreciated the mood of the novels until a re-read. It's so unique, a bit of mystery, a bit of the antiquated, a bit of the modern, and especially the sense of fear which just grows the more you read.

I just started another re-read right now, I'm on AGoT (Eddard XIII) right now so I've got a ways to go.

Regarding Ned's mom:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/85977-ned-starks-mother/

[Aquissya]

One more, sorry. Every time Ned thinks of Lyanna he thinks of blue roses. Isn't there something about a blue rose at the wall in Dany's vision in the HotU? Just seems to lend more credence to R+L=J but I'm sure it's been discussed a million times.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I never noticed that Ned's mom is never mentioned until my re-read. It was driving me crazy, I was sure that it was in ACoK but it's not. It's NEVER mentioned. This either means it's not important at all or it's very important. With GRRM's obsession with family trees and, especially, naming his characters, it seems to me that this will be very important.

Also, I never noticed how Sam acts like Jon's "hand" throughout the novels. And how frustrating Ned Stark is once you know about the Wot5K.

Finally, I never really appreciated the mood of the novels until a re-read. It's so unique, a bit of mystery, a bit of the antiquated, a bit of the modern, and especially the sense of fear which just grows the more you read.

I just started another re-read right now, I'm on AGoT (Eddard XIII) right now so I've got a ways to go.

Regarding Ned's mom:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/85977-ned-starks-mother/

Ned's mother has been revealed by now ;) A few months ago (3, maybe 4?). Her name was Lyarra Stark, a first cousin once removed (if I'm using the terms correctly) of Rickard.

Basically, Lyarra's father was a brother of Rickards grandfather.

http://edelweiss-assets.abovethetreeline.com/RH/supplemental/GRRM_WOIF_SellPacket_spreads-lowres.pdf

Follow that link, last page ;)

[Julia Martell]

One more, sorry. Every time Ned thinks of Lyanna he thinks of blue roses. Isn't there something about a blue rose at the wall in Dany's vision in the HotU? Just seems to lend more credence to R+L=J but I'm sure it's been discussed a million times.

It has, but that's alright.

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

[tze]

The first person who steps forward to fight against Tyrion in his first trial by combat bears the sigil of a green viper. The first person who steps forward to fight for Tyrion in his second trial by combat is, of course, the Red Viper.

A fun little tidbit that I overlooked far too many times: in AFFC, Cersei---who had, earlier in the book, made it clear that she had no idea who the members of House Greyjoy were outside of Balon---is told which Greyjoy now leads the Ironborn:

“Their new king.” Qyburn stood with his hands hidden up his sleeves. “Lord Balon’s brother. The Crow’s Eye, he is called.”

But only a few paragraphs later, Cersei shows she wasn't listening:

“Stannis may have had a hand in this. Balon Greyjoy offered my lord father an alliance. Perhaps his son has offered one to Stannis.”

In one ear and out the other.

More on the Ironborn situation: in AFFC, we go from Victarion's visit to Lord Hewett's castle in one chapter, to King's Landing receiving news of the Shields' fall in the very next chapter. In the former, we saw Lord Hewett imprisoned in his castle on Oakenshield, and we heard Hotho tell Victarion about the fate of the Grimms of Greyshield:

“The Knight took Grimston by himself. He planted his standard beneath the castle and defied the Grimms to face him. One did, and then another, and another. He slew them all... well, near enough, two yielded. When the seventh man went down, Lord Grimm’s septon decided the gods had spoken and surrendered the castle.”

That makes it sound like Lord Grimm is dead. Hotho says that two Grimms yielded, but seven died, and it was Lord Grimm's septon that surrendered the castle, not Lord Grimm. This makes it sound like Lord Grimm was one of the fallen (especially given that the septon waited until seven Grimms were dead before giving in---if his lord was one of the fallen that makes sense, but if his lord was a hostage, that's kind of bizarre.)

But in the very next chapter, when Marg is telling Cersei and the Small Council what happened on the Shields, she says:

Lord Hewett and Lord Chester are slain, as well as Lord Serry’s son and heir. Serry has fled to Highgarden with what few ships remain him, and Lord Grimm is a prisoner in his own castle.

She claims Lord Hewett is dead and Lord Grimm is a prisoner in his own castle. Obviously it's possible that Euron killed Lord Hewett off-page, and I suppose it's possible (though I find it unlikely, given the wording) that Lord Grimm was one of the two Grimms to surrender. (The Appendices are unhelpful here, because all of the Lords of the Shield Islands are all listed as being alive up through the ADWD Appendix.) But I think, in context, it looks like the point is that the Tyrells are getting inaccurate information about the situation on the Shields, with Lord Hewett's fate being mixed up with Lord Grimm's fate.

I just realized that the only character that uses the name Dany is Daenerys when thinking of herself. No other POV refers to himherself by a pet name that no one else uses.

Viserys called her that.

Viserys calls her "Dany" on only a single occasion:

At the last, Viserys looked at her. “Sister, please... Dany, tell them... make them... sweet sister...”
When the gold was half-melted and starting to run, Drogo reached into the flames, snatched out the pot.

Right before the "crowning". Other than that, it's absolutely true that the only person who ever refers to Dany as "Dany" is Dany herself. Given the thematic importance of names, I'm sure this is very relevant.

[Lost Melnibonean]

In Clash, Robb should have learned that Ramsay had been killed...

Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton's bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs, to judge from the tone of the queer cold letter Edmure had gotten from him not three days past. He had crossed the Trident and was marching on Harrenhal as commanded, he wrote. "A strong castle, and well garrisoned, but His Grace shall have it, if I must kill every living soul within to make it so." He hoped His Grace would weigh that against the crimes of his bastard son, whom Ser Rodrik Cassel had put to death. "A fate he no doubt earned," Bolton had written. "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived."

Catelyn VI, Clash

Then on the eve of the red wedding wedding Roose tells him that Ramsay led the northern forces after Rodrick, Cley and Leobald fell...

"And Lord Bolton has brought us further word of Winterfell," Robb added. "Ser Rodrik was not the only good man to die. Cley Cerwyn and Leobald Tallhart were slain as well."

"Cley Cerwyn was only a boy," she said, saddened. "Is this true, then? All dead, and Winterfell gone?"

Bolton's pale eyes met her own. "The ironmen burned both castle and winter town. Some of your people were taken back to the Dreadfort by my son, Ramsay."

"Your bastard was accused of grievous crimes," Catelyn reminded him sharply. "Of murder, rape, and worse."

"Yes," Roose Bolton said. "His blood is tainted, that cannot be denied. Yet he is a good fighter, as cunning as he is fearless. When the ironmen cut down Ser Rodrik, and Leobald Tallhart soon after, it fell to Ramsay to lead the battle, and he did. He swears that he shall not sheathe his sword so long as a single Greyjoy remains in the north. Perhaps such service might atone in some small measure for whatever crimes his bastard blood has led him to commit." He shrugged. "Or not. When the war is done, His Grace must weigh and judge. By then I hope to have a trueborn son by Lady Walda."

Catelyn VI, Storm

Robb, Catelyn and the other norther lords, particularly the Greatjon, should have asked much sharper questions.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This what Arya sees at the Trident on her way with Sandor to the Twins (of course Arya thought she was looking at the Blackwater)...

The rain was falling from a black iron sky, pricking the green and brown torrent with ten thousand swords. It must be a mile across, Arya thought. The tops of half a hundred trees poked up out the swirling waters, their limbs clutching for the sky like the arms of drowning men. Thick mats of sodden leaves choked the shoreline, and farther out in the channel she glimpsed something pale and swollen, a deer or perhaps a dead horse, moving swiftly downstream. There was a sound too, a low rumble at the edge of hearing, like the sound a dog makes just before he growls.

Arya IX, Storm

Nymeria left Essos with ten thousand ships. And Tywin would later suggest that the red wedding was better than killing ten thousand men in war. There had been many drowning men just before Arya arrived. Roose told Catelyn that Gregor had forced many of the northern host into the river. Soon after Arya would see bodies choking the shore with the pale swollen corpse of her mother. And that last line made me think of Grey Wind's posture as Robb came upon the Twins from the west.

[RainGhost]

In Clash, Robb should have learned that Ramsay had been killed...

Catelyn VI, Clash

Then on the eve of the red wedding wedding Roose tells him that Ramsay led the northern forces after Rodrick, Cley and Leobald fell...

Catelyn VI, Storm

Robb, Catelyn and the other norther lords, particularly the Greatjon, should have asked much sharper questions.

They'd already been told by the Freys that Ramsay was alive and they were surprised and horrified then. But you're right, they sould have asked how he survived. I guess they just assumed that Ser Rodrik made a mistake, which of course he did. And here was Roose telling them that Ramsay was fighting for them in an attempt to make up for his crimes. It does sound more plausible that ironborn would burn Winterfell than northmen I guess.

[Lost Melnibonean]

They'd already been told by the Freys that Ramsay was alive and they were surprised and horrified then. But you're right, they sould have asked how he survived. I guess they just assumed that Ser Rodrik made a mistake, which of course he did. And here was Roose telling them that Ramsay was fighting for them in an attempt to make up for his crimes. It does sound more plausible that ironborn would burn Winterfell than northmen I guess.

Man, I forgot that bit, which chapter was it?

[King Crow]

I just started rereading The Princess and the Queen, the first time around I didn't notice that Nettles was black. :blushing:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I just noticed that during the Tysha affair, Jaime was around 22. I always took him for being younger.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I just noticed that during the Tysha affair, Jaime was around 22. I always took him for being younger.

Jaime would be 20, as Tyrion was 10 at Rebellions end, and 13 at the time of Tysha. Jaime was 17 at Rebellions end, and would thus be 20 during he Tysha affair.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jaime would be 20, as Tyrion was 10 at Rebellions end, and 13 at the time of Tysha. Jaime was 17 at Rebellions end, and would thus be 20 during he Tysha affair.

Yep, but considering Jaime was already a grown man, the whole "I had to lie because daddy" sounded childish. It's not like Jaime even lived there in CR any more.

[Julia Martell]

Yep, but considering Jaime was already a grown man, the whole "I had to lie because daddy" sounded childish. It's not like Jaime even lived there in CR any more.

In this case daddy as equals liege lord.... still was a bit cowardly though.

You know what... it was a lot cowardly to watch a teenaged girl get gang-raped and do nothing, no matter who gave to order. Especially since Jamie's whole self image is that he took a moral stand and killed his king to save people.

No one walks away from the Tysha affair looking good.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In this case daddy as equals liege lord.... still was a bit cowardly though.

You know what... it was a lot cowardly to watch a teenaged girl get gang-raped and do nothing, no matter who gave to order. Especially since Jamie's whole self image is that he took a moral stand and killed his king to save people.

No one walks away from the Tysha affair looking good.

And he was very disgusted at the idea of Aerys raping Rhaella. Now I think about it, Jaime has had very bad experiences with that. Rhaella and Tysha. No wonder why he's so against it now, either common girl or nobles.

But yes, he should have said something. Anything. He was in the KG already, he had nothing to lose by defying Tywin.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, to be fair, we don't know if Jaime was still around for that part..

Tywin might have send Jaime back to KL early, to prevent him from spillig the beans in guilt... And by the time Jaime learned about how the Tysha-affair ended, he might have thought something like "I can't change anything by telling the truth, so I'm keeping it to myself."

Perhaps..

[Lost Melnibonean]

You know, I'm just now rereading the Red Wedding chapters and I got to the part where the Haighs come upon Sandor and Arya and Sandor tells them Lady Whent sent him with Stranger as a wedding gift. Why did Sandor say Lady Whent? Was it common knowledge that she was dead? Didn't we only find out that she was dead in the appendices or by some offhand remark in Feast or Dance? How did Sandor know Whent wasn't at the Twins? After leaving King's Landing could Sandor have encountered Lady Whent and/or found out what happened to her?