Videogames: Ultimate Evil Edition

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

People are able to criticize the sexism present in Transformers movies without getting death threats. People are able to criticize the sexism and racism found in ASOIAF without getting DDoSed. The response from many gamers has been completely and totally horrible, far beyond anything else seen short of extremist religions.

Note that games don't have to be like this. The Last of Us doesn't have this at all, for instance. Walking dead doesn't either. I do agree that many games are like what they are because they are emulating some other part of culture that has those same characteristics. But this is the videogame thread, so that's not really in scope.

Those are much smaller subsections of fans that you are using as examples, so the response is not as likely to be as extreme. Not that this justifies the response, but I have to imagine the sort of idiots that are launching DDoS attacks against opinions they don't like are on the fringe of the gamer community.

Hate, hate, hate the second argument. No, they don't have to be like that. Not all comedians work blue, that doesn't make those that do any less talented, necessarily. There is enough gamer money out there to support all types of games.

[Gears of the Beast]

Maybe? If so, they take it to 11. The Sopranos didn't have a clothing store called Gash, for instance. Goodfellas did actually have women in there as some of the main characters. It's one thing to tell a story from a male PoV. It's another to make a world exceedingly misogynistic. And homophobic, for that matter.

GTA V is basically a game for the horrible subculture of gamers. It's fun, and cool, and entirely caters to their worldview.

I don't think they are real world sims. However, if you do - if you think that the way things are in GTA V are because that's the way they are in the world - then you're basically declaring yourself a misogynist.

Gahh

[Werthead]

There are some interesting female characters in the GTA games, like the female triad boss in GTA3, but they're not exactly central to the games. I thoroughly enjoy the GTA series, but there's lots about the games which causes eyes to roll. Rockstar are also good in that they are progressive in other ways - like having a surprisingly nuanced (if only relatively) gay major character in The Ballad of Gay Tony after several games featuring mincing caricatures of gay people - but they play the "SATIRE!" card a little too freely to justify dodgy behaviour.

On a separate note, This War of Mine (a wargame played from the civilian POV) is looking very, very interesting. I've been keeping my eye on it since the first trailer and the gameplay is shaping up to be very tense and different.

The Homeworld remastering is coming along quite nicely. The US collector's editions have almost totally sold out, whilst they're about to launch the European ones.

[Clueless Northman]

Hence the hyper-defensive response from gamers.

I suppose it mostly comes because the genre has always been strongly criticized, first for being for kids, then for being violent, and now for being misogynistic / oppressive of minorities. Music and movies were widely bashed at some times, but also had time to breathe and get some acceptance and recognition. Video games is perhaps too young for being accepted as such, or it's for other reasons - I really can't say, we might be able to analyze this 50 years from now.

As for GTA, if it's just a few games/series that are like that, I don't think it's much of an issue. We've got plenty of gangsta-rap, we had Scarface and Sin City, and plenty worse movies, and literature is full of pulp. What really baffles me though is the huge success; granted, I've never played it, isn't much interested yet got one of these for 4 bucks on a Steam sale to see what it's really like one day (and have plenty of games that interest me more left to play so have no clue when I'll launch the effing game), but right now, I don't see how it can be so massively successful, compared to many other big games.

[eyenon15]

GTA seems to be coasting off of reputation a bit these days. It's becoming dated, it was groundbreaking for late 90s/early 2000s but it's pretty much been the same game since part III. After the scores of similar games inspired by and imitating GTA, it's no longer a fresh thing.

A great game franchise, among the greatest IMO but it's becoming stale I think.

[Shryke]

Those are much smaller subsections of fans that you are using as examples, so the response is not as likely to be as extreme. Not that this justifies the response, but I have to imagine the sort of idiots that are launching DDoS attacks against opinions they don't like are on the fringe of the gamer community.

Why are they on the fringes of the gamer community and not the film community?

[Shryke]

GTA seems to be coasting off of reputation a bit these days. It's becoming dated, it was groundbreaking for late 90s/early 2000s but it's pretty much been the same game since part III. After the scores of similar games inspired by and imitating GTA, it's no longer a fresh thing.

A great game franchise, among the greatest IMO but it's becoming stale I think.

I found it stale almost from the get-go. GTA3 was fun as a shitting around simulator for a few hours but then just becomes dull after that. The subsequent games have not solved this basic problem, but simply tried to distract you from it by throwing more shit at you.

[eyenon15]

I enjoyed the missions and stories from III-IV Sean Penn and Ray Liotta were magical!

That was another thing pioneered by GTA(if I'm not mistaken?) it's the first game I recall having big name actors as the main characters.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Why are they on the fringes of the gamer community and not the film community?

How many Transformers fans do you think there are in the film community? Say compared to fans of violent/misogynistic games (or games that could be rightfully accused of being such) in the gamer community?

Seems to me that the piece that seems to be getting the most attention (I can't remember the author's name) was an attack on gaming as a whole, not a criticism of one specific title.

[Queen of Whores]

Unrelated to this tedious argument, my friend lent me his copy of The Last of Us Remastered, and my god does it look beautiful. Probably one of the best looking games I've ever played. I can definitely see an improvement in graphics over the PS3 version. I'm also playing it on Hard, which is making for a bit of a challenge at times.

[Shryke]

How many Transformers fans do you think there are in the film community? Say compared to fans of violent/misogynistic games (or games that could be rightfully accused of being such) in the gamer community?

Seems to me that the piece that seems to be getting the most attention (I can't remember the author's name) was an attack on gaming as a whole, not a criticism of one specific title.

Sarkeesian isn't attacking gaming as a whole and she's getting people threatening to kill her family.

The truth is that it doesn't take many people to do this kind of shit. It doesn't matter how big the respective communities are because of that. But you just don't see this shit from people who enjoy other entertainment mediums. There's no loud, vocal fringe of the TV industry sending death threats to every women that criticizes a show for being sexist.

Hell, since there's MORE fans of TV and Film, you'd expect the fringe to be BIGGER. But it's not.

[Kalbear]

That is such bullshit. I spent hours playing GTA games when I was a kid. It didn't 'cater' to my world view then, or now. Same goes for many others. It's a fucking video game. These types of arguments are never taken seriously by a relevant population because they're so melodramatic and sensationalist.

What's sensationalist about it? How is my statement about you actually incorrect? That you're getting super upset and defensive about it is kind of supporting my point, no?

If you came back and said "I love GTA V and it doesn't remotely cater to my worldview, because I"m a gay woman who hates cars" that'd be one thing. As it stands, you sound like just another 20something white male with no real knowledge of anything outside of your very narrow world. Please, prove me wrong. Shouldn't be that hard.

Yeh a lot of it is what you choose it to be. You don't have to kill prostitutes for example. Nothing in the game forces you or even suggests that you kill any of the random townsfolk

A number of the missions actually do actively encourage this. None of them say kill X prostitutes, but many are along the lines of 'cause major damage'.

[RumHam]

I found it stale almost from the get-go. GTA3 was fun as a shitting around simulator for a few hours but then just becomes dull after that. The subsequent games have not solved this basic problem, but simply tried to distract you from it by throwing more shit at you.

I felt the same way, but GTA V was the first one I actually finished. It was a big improvement in that regard.

As for the argument, the game probably is considerably more misogynistic than the society that produced it. That doesn't mean you have to be a misogynist to enjoy it. I never thought about the sex of the person I was running over while fleeing the police.

[eyenon15]

What's sensationalist about it? How is my statement about you actually incorrect? That you're getting super upset and defensive about it is kind of supporting my point, no?

A number of the missions actually do actively encourage this. None of them say kill X prostitutes, but many are along the lines of 'cause major damage'.

"Cause major damage" is somehow sexist,

Right

[Cold Crashing Waves]

What's sensationalist about it? How is my statement about you actually incorrect? That you're getting super upset and defensive about it is kind of supporting my point, no?

No it doesn't, at all. That assumption is just as dumb as you drawing a connection between someone playing a video game and their 'world view.' The whole argument is so misinformed and out of it.

[Kalbear]

I guess the difference is between those two examples is that one taboo (murder, etc) is set down by law, and the other (homosexual experiences) is set down by society. Societal prejudices reach further than the long arm of the law, it seems.

But other lawlessness isn't gamed either. Drug use isn't (at least not specifically, though a drug use sim would be fantastically interesting). You can't explicitly rape anyone in GTA (sure, you can murder prostitutes but rape is just not cool). Theft is okay, embezzlement not so much. There's another interesting simulator in the mix - imagine playing someone who wants to get away with murder. The murder might be a crime of passion or something along the lines. You're having to cover up evidence and make sure your tracks are cool, play it cool with interviews and arrests, that sort of thing. It's odd that the psychological thriller is not particularly represented in video games.

[Kalbear]

"Cause major damage" is somehow sexist,

Righ

Didn't say it was. You said that you never have to kill people randomly. That's a factually incorrect statement.

No it doesn't, at all. That assumption is just as dumb as you drawing a connection between someone playing a video game and their 'world view.' The whole argument is so misinformed and out of it.

Again, you're not making actual arguments. You're stating random things. You've still not made any argument against it. You're getting very upset and demonstrably worked up about someone claiming that the game you play a whole lot of is somehow representative of who you are without being able to say anything actually contradicting that.

[eyenon15]

Didn't say it was. You said that you never have to kill people randomly. That's a factually incorrect statement.

What mission do you have to kill people randomly then?

A side mission? That you aren't forced to play?

And if there is a mission like that, what makes it be sexist?

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Again, you're not making actual arguments. You're stating random things. You've still not made any argument against it. You're getting very upset and demonstrably worked up about someone claiming that the game you play a whole lot of is somehow representative of who you are without being able to say anything actually contradicting that.

I'm saying judging a crowd by what video games they play is incredibly stupid. There is no counter argument necessary. If I really need to explain why, then I'm not even gonna bother.

And I haven't played GTA in years so it's got nothing to do with me personally. I just find that mindset incredibly narrowminded.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Hell, since there's MORE fans of TV and Film, you'd expect the fringe to be BIGGER. But it's not.

Umm, not so sure about that...

http://www.popcrunch.com/the-15-nuttiest-celebrity-stalkers-of-all-time/

And that's a fairly limited sample. Remember Rebecca Schaefer?

http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/s/Rebecca%20Schaeffer/rebecca_schaeffer.htm