R+L=J v.98

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, but knowing Aerys, they probably realized that they would never consummate the marriage, no?

I'm pretty sure Egg did not forbid the marriage between Aerys and Rhaella, but I'd not be surprised if he was not actually fond of the idea. Considering the Targaryen tradition he couldn't really say no, especially not if Jaehaerys was insisting, and his only possible heir at this point.

[Anath]

And what makes everyone assume that Aegon would humbly obey his father's wishes and marry a daughter of Lyanna's (if Rhaegar's intentions were such)? He might have some problems with daddy dearest reviving a well forgotten custom that was detrimental to Aegon's own mother. Especially if Rhaegar pulled an Aegon I and showed open preference to Lyanna and her children. And Aegon would have the precedent, wouldn't he? Rhaegar was not exactly an obedient son leaving his father choose his second match if there was indeed such a match.

Funny how everyone excuses Rhaegar causing unrest with his possible second marriage by assuming that Aegon would gladly accept a daughter of Lyanna without giving a peep.

[Attitude]

I'd say that the novellas are common knowledge on this board.

Better start reading them soon then :P

[BearQueen87]

Yeah, but knowing Aerys, they probably realized that they would never consummate the marriage, no?

I'm pretty sure Egg did not forbid the marriage between Aerys and Rhaella, but I'd not be surprised if he was not actually fond of the idea. Considering the Targaryen tradition he couldn't really say no, especially not if Jaehaerys was insisting, and his only possible heir at this point.

Aegon may not have been fond of the idea but I'm not sure we can say he was 100% against it but just "let it happen" anyway. He may have recognized that the marriage between Aerys and Rhaella needed to happen. I think he has some prophetic sympathies: he did die in Summerhall trying to hatch dragons for some reason, right? It might have been part of the woods witch/ ghost of high heart prophecy.

[Mithras]

Continuing from my previous post in which I propose that some of the HotU visions were meant for Lyanna.

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

This is another example of the point I am trying to make. Rhaegar is thinking about Lyanna, the future mother of dragon he means to make while he is looking at Dany.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Continuing from my previous post in which I propose that some of the HotU visions were meant for Lyanna.

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

This is another example of the point I am trying to make. Rhaegar is thinking about Lyanna, the future mother of dragon he means to make while he is looking at Dany.

I have no idea why you think he is thinking of Lyanna. We have no reason to believe that he has been told at this point that Elia cannot bear any more children. We have no reason to believe that Rhaegar was not expecting to have a third child with Elia (the woman in the bed) at that point in time. The aspect of the vision in which Rhaegar might have been looking at Dany suggests that it is a message to Dany that she is one of the heads and she has to find the other two because "The dragon has three heads." But I see no evidence that he was thinking about Lyanna at that time shortly after Aegon's birth.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Funny how everyone excuses Rhaegar causing unrest with his possible second marriage by assuming that Aegon would gladly accept a daughter of Lyanna without giving a peep.

I tend to agree with you that it is silly speculation to imagine that Rhaegar planned to have Aegon marry a daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna. We have no evidence that Rhaegar approved of incest just because he became desperate enough to engage in polygamy. I also don't agree that he expected a girl with Lyanna--as I have explained in many different threads--I believe he thought Lyanna was ice to his fire and thus they would have a son--TPTWP. But even if he expected a girl with Lyanna--Rhaegar's plan appeared to be to raise his three children as a team--the three heads of the dragon. He was not worried principally about succession issues--he was worried about fulfilling the prophesy to ensure the survival of humanity.

While I don't "excuse" Rhaegar for causing unrest--I don't think the level of unrest that resulted from his actions were reasonably foreseeable at the time he took the actions. Would you have predicted that running off in secret with Lyanna would lead to a major civil war? I don't see how anyone could have seen that course of events resulting from that spark. While I think there are legitimate reasons to criticize many of Rhaegar's actions, he was not really the prime or direct cause for the unrest (even if his actions in some sense were a necessary part of causing them to occur).

[Anath]

While I don't "excuse" Rhaegar for causing unrest--I don't think the level of unrest that resulted from his actions were reasonably foreseeable at the time he took the actions. Would you have predicted that running off in secret with Lyanna would lead to a major civil war? I don't see how anyone could have seen that course of events resulting from that spark. While I think there are legitimate reasons to criticize many of Rhaegar's actions, he was not really the prime or direct cause for the unrest (even if his actions in some sense were a necessary part of causing them to occur).

That's why I used the word unrest. I wasn't talking about the war. Unrest was a reasonable expectation. Even Rhaegar - whom I don't hold in high regard where mundane things like ruling kingdoms and stuff are concerned - clearly expected it. That's why he ran away.

I still fail to see why Rhaegar would expect to stir some trouble with making a second marriage with someone he chose and then expect of Aegon to marry whomever he, Rhaegar, chose, let alone making it a part of soothing the unrest he, Rhaegar, caused. "Well, Lord Stark, I promise you, my daughter with Lyanna will be queen one day." "How so?" "Well, Aegon's gonna marry her..." "Is he, indeed? And what if he decided to choose his own wife?" "What? You mean he's gonna disobey his father? No way. Since when do princes choose their own matches? All will be fine."

I also disagree that Rhaegar's plan "appeared" to be raise his three children as a team. We don't know anything about Rhaegar's plan, it doesn't "appear" any way, and every precedent we have of Targaryen kings fathering children on different mothers shows trouble. Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya were a team - and then Aegon evicted his teammate Visenya, summoning her back only when he needed her. As learned man as Rhaegar would know that team doesn't preclude favoritism and bad blood.

[BearQueen87]

Continuing from my previous post in which I propose that some of the HotU visions were meant for Lyanna.

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

This is another example of the point I am trying to make. Rhaegar is thinking about Lyanna, the future mother of dragon he means to make while he is looking at Dany.

I'm not quite sure I agree. Given how healthy and hale Elia is in this vision, it seems as though no one has informed the couple that she cannot bear another child yet. I don't think Rhaegar began actively thinking about Lyanna as mother for #3/TPTWP until after they got word that Elia cannot have more children.

Given that Rhaegar, in this vision, suddenly breaks the "fourth wall" and seemingly talks directly to Dany would indicate that at that moment (when the vision talks to Dany) it's not the historical Rhaegar anymore, but rather "magic" is speaking to Dany. It may be something that Rhaegar (this historical one) believed in--the dragon must have three heads--but by talking directly to Dany at that moment it's not Rhaegar Rhaegar. (I hope you follow what I just said....)

[BearQueen87]

I tend to agree with you that it is silly speculation to imagine that Rhaegar planned to have Aegon marry a daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna. We have no evidence that Rhaegar approved of incest just because he became desperate enough to engage in polygamy. I also don't agree that he expected a girl with Lyanna--as I have explained in many different threads--I believe he thought Lyanna was ice to his fire and thus they would have a son--TPTWP. But even if he expected a girl with Lyanna--Rhaegar's plan appeared to be to raise his three children as a team--the three heads of the dragon. He was not worried principally about succession issues--he was worried about fulfilling the prophesy to ensure the survival of humanity.

I have to agree--I don't know where this speculation that Rhaegar was going to marry Aegon to Lyanna's daughter is coming from. While I agree with Unmasked Lurker that R expected a boy with Lyanna, even if he did expect a girl, Rhaegar is a first hand witness to the dangers of incest. He knows how unhappy his mother was, being forced to marry her own brother. I have to wonder if R knew about Bonifer and how much Rhaella loved him and the pain it caused her to be unable to wed him. I don't think he would inflict that on his children.

[UnmaskedLurker]

That's why I used the word unrest. I wasn't talking about the war. Unrest was a reasonable expectation. Even Rhaegar - whom I don't hold in high regard where mundane things like ruling kingdoms and stuff are concerned - clearly expected it. That's why he ran away.

I still fail to see why Rhaegar would expect to stir some trouble with making a second marriage with someone he chose and then expect of Aegon to marry whomever he, Rhaegar, chose.

I also disagree that Rhaegar's plan "appeared" to be raise his three children as a team. We don't know anything about Rhaegar's plan, it doesn't "appear" any way, and every precedent we have of Targaryen kings fathering children on different mothers shows trouble. Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya were a team - and then Aegon evicted his teammate Visenya, summoning her back only when he needed her. As learned man as Rhaegar would know that team doesn't preclude favoritism and bad blood.

While I am not sure I disagree with your statements of fact, I think I disagree with you characterization. Yes, Rhaegar knew some people would be upset about him running off with Lyanna. I think he expected some Starks to be upset and probably his father, Aerys to be upset--probably even some of the Martells. But having important people upset is not the same thing, IMHO, as "unrest." I believe that Rhaegar intended to stay away until the baby was born and then come back to KL with new wife and baby and explain everything. He thought everyone would just stew in their anger until then, but not take any military action or demand that his father produce Rhaegar and have him killed (as Brandon apparently did). I know you acknowledge these were not foreseeable, but I am not sure what you mean by "unrest." Aerys and Lords being angry is not really unrest.

We actually do know Rhaegar's plan to some extent. He tells Elia in the HotU vision. He says that there must be one more because the dragon has three heads. Rhaegar's mission is to produce the three heads of the dragon who are destined to fight together and win the Battle for the Dawn. Rhaegar has been obsessed with this prophesy much of his life and apparently his obsession with this prophesy is what led him to have child with Lyanna. So I think we can be fairly certain that he would spend his life preparing his three children to fulfill this role as the three heads of the dragon--to be prepared to fight together in battle to save humanity. I would call that raising them as a team.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm not quite sure I agree. Given how healthy and hale Elia is in this vision, it seems as though no one has informed the couple that she cannot bear another child yet. I don't think Rhaegar began actively thinking about Lyanna as mother for #3/TPTWP until after they got word that Elia cannot have more children.

Given that Rhaegar, in this vision, suddenly breaks the "fourth wall" and seemingly talks directly to Dany would indicate that at that moment (when the vision talks to Dany) it's not the historical Rhaegar anymore, but rather "magic" is speaking to Dany. It may be something that Rhaegar (this historical one) believed in--the dragon must have three heads--but by talking directly to Dany at that moment it's not Rhaegar Rhaegar. (I hope you follow what I just said....)

As usual, BQ87 and I agree (we seem to do that a lot), and this is what I was trying to say above. The words were intended to have two meanings--one to Elia and one to Dany. The "real" Rhaegar was simply stating that he and Elia needed to have a third child because the dragon has three heads. The "magic" Rhaegar is talking to Dany and letting her know that she is one of the heads of the dragon and she needs to find the other two because they need to save the world together. None of that has anything to do with Rhaegar thinking about Lyanna.

[Mithras]

I have no idea why you think he is thinking of Lyanna. We have no reason to believe that he has been told at this point that Elia cannot bear any more children. We have no reason to believe that Rhaegar was not expecting to have a third child with Elia (the woman in the bed) at that point in time. The aspect of the vision in which Rhaegar might have been looking at Dany suggests that it is a message to Dany that she is one of the heads and she has to find the other two because "The dragon has three heads." But I see no evidence that he was thinking about Lyanna at that time shortly after Aegon's birth.

I'm not quite sure I agree. Given how healthy and hale Elia is in this vision, it seems as though no one has informed the couple that she cannot bear another child yet. I don't think Rhaegar began actively thinking about Lyanna as mother for #3/TPTWP until after they got word that Elia cannot have more children.

Given that Rhaegar, in this vision, suddenly breaks the "fourth wall" and seemingly talks directly to Dany would indicate that at that moment (when the vision talks to Dany) it's not the historical Rhaegar anymore, but rather "magic" is speaking to Dany. It may be something that Rhaegar (this historical one) believed in--the dragon must have three heads--but by talking directly to Dany at that moment it's not Rhaegar Rhaegar. (I hope you follow what I just said....)

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

I don’t think I agree. The fact that Elia barely survived the birth of Aegon tells much. Rhaegar knew that she would not be able to give birth to the third child and he knew where to find the one who could.

[Anath]

Unmasked Lurker, once again, I am not talking about the war. Really, am I not making myself clear? Reviving the precedent of polygamy would cause unrest even under the best circumstances which Rhaegar expected. It would cause strife between various factions supporting the sons of the two wives. It would cause problems with the Faith. It would cause all sorts of trouble. I am talking about what was to be expected, not what actually happened. You say you don't defend Rhaegar's actions, yet I still fail to see what you find fault with when he's concerned. What do you think having some important people being upset means if not unrest? That they'll just throw a tantrum and that's it?

BearQueen, the assumption that Rhaegar would have Aegon marry Lyanna's daughter is put forward by people trying to find a solution that would calm Rickard Stark who would be reasonably angry with the prospect of his daughter being only the second wife, with her sons not inheriting the throne without stepping over Aegon's dead body or Aegon being disinheirted.

[BearQueen87]

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

I don’t think I agree. The fact that Elia barely survived the birth of Aegon tells much. Rhaegar knew that she would not be able to give birth to the third child and she knew where to find the one who could.

Isn't there a theory that the Maesters were lying, under order of Tywin Lannister, and making Elia seem more sick than she actually was? Did I make this theory up in my head?

ETA: either the vision in the HotU is totally inaccurate as far as history and this is all magical vision (which is problematic seeing how much we all use it for various theories--3headed dragon, ASOIAF) OR Elia wasn't as sick as people were lead to believe.

[UnmaskedLurker]

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

I don’t think I agree. The fact that Elia barely survived the birth of Aegon tells much. Rhaegar knew that she would not be able to give birth to the third child and she knew where to find the one who could.

While we cannot be sure of the sequence of events, it seems that that scene is very shortly after Aegon's birth, which likely would have been before the maesters told them that Elia could have no more children. But I admit, we cannot be sure of the sequence in terms of exactly when this information was told to them.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Unmasked Lurker, once again, I am not talking about the war. Really, am I not making myself clear? Reviving the precedent of polygamy would cause unrest even under the best circumstances which Rhaegar expected. It would cause strife between various factions supporting the sons of the two wives. It would cause problems with the Faith. It would cause all sorts of trouble. I am talking about what was to be expected, not what actually happened. You say you don't defend Rhaegar's actions, yet I still fail to see what you find fault with when he's concerned. What do you think having some important people being upset means if not unrest? That they'll just throw a tantrum and that's it?

I under your point now--sorry for being dense. Yes, that was an unfortunate cost of producing the third head of the dragon. I criticize him for running off with Lyanna the way he did. I am not sure what alternative he had, but I think he probably could have come up with something better. Perhaps let the world know what they were doing and why--even if he kept their location secret. Letting the world believe Lyanna was kidnapped with probably not a good idea. But in the end, I think Rhaegar had to take the hit that bringing back polygamy would cause.

[Anath]

I under your point now--sorry for being dense. Yes, that was an unfortunate cost of producing the third head of the dragon. I criticize him for running off with Lyanna the way he did. I am not sure what alternative he had, but I think he probably could have come up with something better. Perhaps let the world know what they were doing and why--even if he kept their location secret. Letting the world believe Lyanna was kidnapped with probably not a good idea. But in the end, I think Rhaegar had to take the hit that bringing back polygamy would cause.

Exactly! And with him just having disturbed the norms, I cannot imagine someone would put much stock into believing that he could make Aegon taking a daughter of Lyanna's to wife if Aegon didn't want to. Rhaegar himself had just set a precedent of a crown prince doing what he wanted to, not what his father thought best, as questionable as Aerys' mental abilities were at the moment.

Rhaegar had to find something else to use.

[Kingmonkey]

Kind of bad for it actually, since we know that the prince that was promised will be the one whose song is that of ice and fire. Prince being the key word.

Yet Aemon, arguing that the PTWP is Dany says:

What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.

FfC ch35

I suspect that most Dragons are bastards, so why shouldn't the PTWP be one too?

Interpreting prophecy is tricky business. Interpreting prophecies that are dubiously translated, even more so.

[Alia of the knife]

I think Tywin had washed his hands of Court at the time of Aegons birth, and given Kevans lament if Aerys had only married Rhaegar to Cersei, it sounds as if her condition was noticeably severe.

And I believe Elia was still abed in tHotU vision.