The power of Beric and Catelyn comes from the Old Gods, not the Lord of Light, and Jaime will be next.

[Mychel_Redfort]

I'm surprised nobody mentions the resurgence of magic, when Dany's dragons hatched, as the cause of Thoros's "powers". Remember what Quaithe says after Dany watches the firemage in Qarth. From Clash 40 :

When the fiery ladder stood forty feet high, the mage leapt forward and began to climb it, scrambling up hand over hand as quick as a monkey. Each rung he touched dissolved behind him, leaving no more than wisp of silver smoke. When he reached the top, the ladder was gone and so was he.

"A fine trick," announced Jhogo with admiration.

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red laquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

"Me?" She laughed. "How could that be?"

The woman stepped closer, and lay two fingers on Dany's wrist. "You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?"

It fits with Thoros totally not expecting his "kiss of life" to work the first time he resurrected Beric. But does the Battle at the Mummer's Ford happen after the dragons hatch ? The Battle is first mentioned in Game 55.

The dragons hatch the night the comet appears first in the night sky in Lhazar. That's in the last chapter of Game. But the comet is first mentioned in Game 66, Bran VII, when Maester Luwin observes it the morning of the day Winterfell hears of Ned's death. So Dany's storyline in Essos isn't synchronized with the stories in Westeros. Luwin's previous appearance before Bran VII is Bran VI, Game 53. So if the first sighting of the comet in Westeros was placed soon after Game 53 and before Game 55, the first resurrection of Beric could be one of the first signs of the resurgence of magic.

[Mikkel]

I'm surprised nobody mentions the resurgence of magic, when Dany's dragons hatched, as the cause of Thoros's "powers". Remember what Quaithe says after Dany watches the firemage in Qarth. From Clash 40

Partly because it's far from universally agreed that the dragons are the source or cause of magic, rather than just another effect or symptom of magic.

[RainGhost]

I'm surprised nobody mentions the resurgence of magic, when Dany's dragons hatched, as the cause of Thoros's "powers". Remember what Quaithe says after Dany watches the firemage in Qarth. From Clash 40 :

It fits with Thoros totally not expecting his "kiss of life" to work the first time he resurrected Beric. But does the Battle at the Mummer's Ford happen after the dragons hatch ? The Battle is first mentioned in Game 55.

The Battle at the Mummer's Ford happens before Dany's dragons hatch, so perhaps magic was already becoming stronger and that's how Dany is able to hatch her dragons and survive the flames.

I think magic is magic and different 'religions' use it in different ways but it is ultimatley the same force, so there are bound to be similarities.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think Bran Vras suggested this idea before. Or was it tze?. I definitely remember reading the idea that Arya resurrected Cat through Nymeria.

Anyway, I agree with this. Perhaps Beric was an experiment for BR.

I wasn't aware of those earlier ideas. I don't suppose you could point me to them?

[Mithras]

From Bran Vras

4. Catelyn Stark

Catelyn Stark appeared to us as a loving mother caught in a tragedy, and who made understandable mistakes for the sake of her children. We are not going to discuss in-depth such a rich and complex character. Her dislike of Jon Snow falls into the common pattern of the jealousy of the mother for the child of her husband's mistress. However, such dislike was unnecessary and irrational since Jon Snow was clearly designated as a bastard and never claimed any part of the Stark inheritance.

Beside her dislike for Jon Snow, another aspect makes her unsympathetic: her resurrection as vengeful spirit. Why did Catelyn Stark among all the victims of the War in the Riverlands come back from the dead to seek justice, vengeance? Her suffering as a mother and as a wife was terrible, but far from unparalleled. So why did Beric Dondarrion decide to give his life for her resurrection?

Beric's decision was certainly motivated by a certain tiredness after so many resurrections. The fact that Nymeria found Catelyn on the Trident does not seem to have influenced Beric and Thoros.

“She is,” said Thoros of Myr. “The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And... she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose.”

(Brienne VIII, AFfC)

However, we can suspect the agency of the old gods. Indeed, the direwolves have been associated to the old gods all along, at least in the Greatjon's eyes. Moreover, Beric Dondarrion, when seated on his "throne" of weirwood roots and watching with his single eye, seemed to be an avatar of Lord Brynden Rivers.

[House Volton]

Actually, the presence of one-eyed figures is all throughout the text, from Balerion the Cat to the one-eyed crone among the dosh khaleen, from the one-eyed horse given to Val to Mors Umber and many others.

I actually think there is something fishy with Mors Umber's lost eye it was eaten by crow and then replaced by obsidian!!

Is someone watching from Mors's lost eye. If yes then who is it Bloodraven, Marwyn or Quaithe

[Lost Melnibonean]

I actually think there is something fishy with Mors Umber's lost eye it was eaten by crow and then replaced by obsidian!!

Is someone watching from Mors's lost eye? If yes then who is it Bloodraven, Marwyn or Quaithe

Only when it's burning. But then, that might be seasonal allergies...

[Allyria Dondarrion]

For me the presence of the weirwoods means that Bloodraven's witnessing these events rather than making them happen.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Partly because it's far from universally agreed that the dragons are the source or cause of magic, rather than just another effect or symptom of magic.

Really ? And yet the passage with Quaithe I provided stongly suggests the hatching of the dragons is the cause of the new improved powers of the firemage. How else do you interpret it ?

[Mikkel]

Really ? And yet the passage with Quaithe I provided stongly suggests the hatching of the dragons is the cause of the new improved powers of the firemage. How else do you interpret it ?

What Quaithe says to Dany suggests what you say, yes, but that doesn't necessarily make it true - Quaithe could be wrong, or misleading Dany for her own reasons - we have several instances of magic on the rise before the hatching of the dragons, such as an entire generation of Stark children being Wargs, the awakening of the Others, and several of the Red Priests discovering that their magic comes easier and/or works better, though the timing of that is not entirely clear some, at least, seems to have noticed this before the dragons. It's enough that we can't just take Quaithe's word for it and call it a day.

[Mychel_Redfort]

What Quaithe says to Dany suggests what you say, yes, but that doesn't necessarily make it true - Quaithe could be wrong, or misleading Dany for her own reasons - we have several instances of magic on the rise before the hatching of the dragons, such as an entire generation of Stark children being Wargs, the awakening of the Others, and several of the Red Priests discovering that their magic comes easier and/or works better, though the timing of that is not entirely clear some, at least, seems to have noticed this before the dragons. It's enough that we can't just take Quaithe's word for it and call it a day.

OK, I get what you mean, thank you for your explanation. But I'm not sure there's an incompatibility here. Magic could have been slowly on the rise before the hatching for the dragons, with the examples you give, up to the point the awakening of the dragons becomes possible. And with dragons back in the world, magic gets quickly very stronger. Quaithe says so, but so does Hallyne the Pyromancer. From Clash 49 :

"Though it does raise the question of why you did not begin working hard until now."

Hallyne had the complexion of a mushroom, so it was hard to see how he could turn any paler, yet somehow he managed. "We were, my Lord Hand, my brothers and I have been laboring day and night from the first, I assure you. It is only, hmmm, we have made so much of the substance that we have become, hmmm, more practiced as it were, and also..." The alchemist shifted uncomfortably. "...certain spells, hmmm, ancient secrets of our order, very delicate, very troublesome, but necessary if the substance is to be, hmmm, all it should be..."

Tyrion was growing impatient. Ser Jacelyn Bywater was likely here now, and Ironhand misliked waiting. "Yes, you have secret spells, how splendid, what of them?"

"They, hmmm, seem to be working better than they were." Hallyne smiled weakly. "You don't suppose there are any dragons about, do you ?"

"Not unless you found one under the Dragonpit. Why?"

"Oh, pardon, I was just remembering something old Wisdom Pollitor told me once, when I was an acolyte. I'd asked him why so many of our spells seemed, well, not as effectual as the scrolls would have us believe, and he said it was because magic had begun to go out of the world the day the last dragon died."

[Mikkel]

OK, I get what you mean, thank you for your explanation. But I'm not sure there's an incompatibility here. Magic could have been slowly on the rise before the hatching for the dragons, with the examples you give, up to the point the awakening of the dragons becomes possible. And with dragons back in the world, magic gets quickly very stronger. Quaithe says so, but so does Hallyne the Pyromancer. From Clash 49 :

What Hallyne says is there is a correlation between magic and dragons, but it doesn't necessarily say anything about what way the connection is - the Targaryen dragons had been harder to breed, and become progressively smaller and/or deformed (IIRC) until they went extinct entirely, suggesting magic was on the wane in general, and when it reached a low enough point, the dragons would start fading.

So I think it's indisputable that dragons are magical, probably more so than any other animal in the world of ASOIAF including Direwolves or Krakens, but I am still not convinced they are anything more than a very impressive and dangerous indicator of the ebb and flow of magic in the world - ie they are not the cause, but an effect.

It is of course possible that dragons are indeed the cause, but I think it's just as likely that humans misinterpret the signs, and get cause and effect the wrong way about - hell, it happens all the time even today, not with magic and dragons of course, but "studies", that come to such conclusions as "eating healthier increases your chance at a high-paying job" (this was an actual news item a while back).

[Mychel_Redfort]

So I think it's indisputable that dragons are magical, probably more so than any other animal in the world of ASOIAF including Direwolves or Krakens, but I am still not convinced they are anything more than a very impressive and dangerous indicator of the ebb and flow of magic in the world - ie they are not the cause, but an effect.

So what if the dragons were not the cause, but a catalyst ? In a chemical reaction, the presence of a catalyst increases the rate of the reaction, but it's not the cause of the reaction. (sorry if I'm not clear, english is not my first language.)

[Mikkel]

So what if the dragons were not the cause, but a catalyst ? In a chemical reaction, the presence of a catalyst increases the rate of the reaction, but it's not the cause of the reaction. (sorry if I'm not clear, english is not my first language.)

I'm no expert on chemistry, but that seems quite possible, too. A sort of critical mass being present, or something. As long as there's more to the picture than "Dragons did it all" I'll be happy.

[Karmarni]

So, which came first - the dragons or the magic? :)

Both are wrapped up in one big explosion the world has yet to fully experience. The 'religions' got stronger, the magic that was proscribed to them in theory became real.

Any more Westerosi brought back from the dead and I'll be looking askance at GRRM. Yes, it's part of the magic cycle. But the current undead characters need to have their stories fully told before anyone else gets revived, imo. Of course maybe the whole end is just a fight of the living against the undead. Ho hum to that, I say.

I think the weirwoods are for the greenseers, the CoTF, the old gods worshippers who use blood magic, and currently, Bloodraven and Bran who look through them, but I'm not yet on the page that the old gods are the ones with the power of resurrection. It seems a god of fire is the one who should be responsible for a life spark; therefore, R'hllor.

[kiasyd]

Actually, the presence of one-eyed figures is all throughout the text, from Balerion the Cat to the one-eyed crone among the dosh khaleen, from the one-eyed horse given to Val to Mors Umber and many others.

Many tend to believe that one-eyed "things" correlate in some way to Bloodraven / old gods. Having said that, Balerion the cat isn't one-eyed.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I think the weirwoods are for the greenseers, the CoTF, the old gods worshippers who use blood magic, and currently, Bloodraven and Bran who look through them, but I'm not yet on the page that the old gods are the ones with the power of resurrection. It seems a god of fire is the one who should be responsible for a life spark; therefore, R'hllor.

Actually, earth and underworld deities are usually the ones connected with death and resurrection. (Chthonic - Wikipedia) Think Hades and Persephone. This goes well with Bloodraven, the CotF (Earth Singers) and their underground dwellings. This also bodes well for Jon, of course, should he be in need of resurrection.

That is one reason why I classify unBeric (and Lady Stoneheart) in the same group as unGregor, Coldhands and the wights. (Patchface might very well belong there, too.) They are not truly alive. They don't eat (or excrete, presumably). They haven't really been resurrected. For a contrast, see Khal Drogo. He at least eats. And in his case, a death paid for a life.

Thanks for the quote from Bran Vras, Paper Waver. I don't agree with him on this, though. The agency involved in "raising" (because I don't think the term "resurrecting" fits) Lady Stoneheart clearly traces through Beric to Thoros and his fire magic, and has nothing to do with the Old Gods. No weirwoods or blood sacrifice involved here. Thoros "breathed fire" into Beric, and unBeric passed it to LS.

Perhaps we should see Beric sitting on a weirwood throne as an usurping imposter, someone who has no connection with the Old Gods and has no right to sit in their place of power. After all, he lost the duel he fought there.

ETA - spelling

[Faydra]

The Old Gods have no power.

It's mentioned that the children of the forest called twice upon their gods to use a certain kind of magic named the hammer of the waters... which was quite powerful.

[Mithras]

Thoros was not able to see visions in the fires around High Heart where the GHH said that the Old Gods were still strong. So, they do have power.

[Lord Vitiate]

I don't think the old gods are real. I think weirwoods are inherently magical but I believe the old gods are just greenseers tapped into the weirnet. So Thoros/Beric's powers MIGHT come from weirwoods, or they might not. Maybe the Essosi red priests get their powers from the trees that you can make Shade of the Evening from, or maybe they don't. I think it's Martin's intention to leave magic as a mysterious force, so we will never really know what gods people get their powers from or even if they get their powers from gods at all.

The green seers ARE the old gods. They are truly gods-

They are worshipped

They are immortal

They are omnipresent

They avenge breaches of custom

They have great power ( arm of Dorne/ the neck)

The old gods are simply the union between man and tree, just as we are told.