Addressing Stark bias

[Modelex]

This phenomenon finds it way into most discussions so I feel that it has to be addressed seperately. Whether people acknowledge it or not Stark bias, the propensity by the majority of forum users to deem the side of a debate that happens to align favorably for the Starks as the correct one is very perplexing and frustrating. Whether it is thread discussing character X who did something that resulted in a Stark misfortune or group Y who is antagonistic to the Starks, or just criticizing a Stark's actions it always seems like you are reading about a select few posters who try and challenge the Stark monolith and are overcome. It stifles many topics involving issues such as the Ironborn, Daenerys, Tywin etc. Not just that, but it seems that the Starks are also held to be the paragons of virtue and justice, often at odds with the standards that are held to other characters. Theon is a cold blooded murderer but Arya is Bat(wo)man? Dany is destroying the lives of thousands of peasants but Ned and Robb are Gandhis who populated their armies with volunteers? I would laugh if these weren't things said in one way or another on a fairly regular basis. And not just the Starks, characters who help the Starks are seen as being much better as those who don't when there is fundamentally no moral difference between the two. Sandor the child murderer (who laughed at his infamy!) is viewed through a softer lens than Dany who that one time ordered an unspecified "sharp questioning" to a girl of unspecified age. Why? Likely because Sandor was helpful to the Stark girls while Dany completely justifiably spits on the name of Saint Eddard of blessed memory and spotless character. And Stannis who is seriously one of the most hypocritical, disturbing, rude and all around unlikeable characters in this entire series has created a cult of personality around himself that happened to "conveniently" coincide with when he decided to go North and help the Starks. Now he is by far the popular choice for the Throne when a cursory reading would yield him to be an abhorrent King who would spawn more rebellions than poor Davos could count on his remaining fingers. But Dany is of course the one who would destroy Westeros, not him.

I just want to get at the root of why it is so prevalent and hopefully try and create a change to a more even-handed forum environment

[John Doe]

It don't like that characters like Tywin get more hate than they deserve because of Stark bias (and because the two Lannisters people like, Tyrion and Jaime, don't like their father either).

[Ser Eric]

Because, the Starks in general are good people. At least more so than many others in the series.

Second, the books themselves are written in a way that makes you sympathize with Starks.

[TheLastStark]

Name one thing the Starks have done bad.

The only reason Dany spits on Ned's name is because she doesn't know that Ned and Robert were at first just trying to survive not overthrow.

[Batbob45]

I think the Starks are interesting charactors but I has no Stark Bias

Sansa- was not a big fan during GOT(her blind love for Joffrey) but her arc starting at the end of GOT(when she relized what type of a person the lannisters and Joffrey were) was good

Arya- one of my favorite Starks, but the writing seem to protray her as SuperArya

Robb-to honorable to win the game.

Ned-good man but he should of not trust LF and was not bright in telling Cersei.

Cat-one of the best mothers in the books but it was not Jon Snow fault for being born

Bran-people find him boring and now he might turn become a tree

Rickon-the one that people don't care about, ateast Davos is looking for him

Jon-good charactor but sometimes he does things that make me facepalm

[Ingelheim]

The Starks in general are good people. That cannot be said of the Lannisters, with Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin, Jaime during most of his life, Tyrion post ASOS, etc.

[TheLastStark]

Jon-good charactor but sometimes he does things that make me facepalm :bang:

:rofl: ain't it the truth.

[David Selig]

Good job, OP. In just half a page you managed to provoke the Stark fans, the Stannis fans, the Sandor fans and the Dany haters. ;)

[TheLastStark]

For me, I just hate those fucking Stannis apologists.

What do they say?

[You Lie]

IMO the tv show definitely has an impact to the "Stark bias" as well.

However, comparing character's actions without questioning why or how is also biased. For example Arya is a more likable character than Theon because of her motives and the prior experience before those actions. Arya's motive for killing is justice whereas Theon's is power. And by achieving power he also betrays his friends (I'm only talking about Robb and Bran, not Ned). Plus, we can all agree that Theon didn't go through a severely traumatic experience until after what he is accused of. Whether both logics are wrong is up to you to decide, but you can't overlook the fact that justice is a more "understandable"* drive than lust for power.

*I'm not an English native speaker so "understandable" was the best word I could think of :)

[OldGimletEye]

Yes, I am sure the Targaryen Ministry of Propaganda will have the OP's post turned into a leaflet, which it will then have dropped all over Westeros, by a fleet of long range bombers, before Dany begins her invasion of Westeros.

Standby for future broadcast by Targaryen Rose.

[The Wolves]

It don't like that characters like Tywin get more hate than they deserve because of Stark bias (and because the two Lannisters people like, Tyrion and Jaime, don't like their father either).

People act like Tyrion, Tywin and Jaime haven't done anything hate worthy.

Tywin had children/babies murdered on his orders, had a child gang raped, destroyed houses and had innocent people killed, he also steals swords and unleashes monsters onto innocent people.

Tyrion is a violent woman hater who thinks he is entitled to something because of his name and intelligence. He also is cruel and vindictive

Jaime helps bring about a war to millions of people and pushed a child than actively tried to maim a child.

This isn't about what those 3 people have done to the Starks it's about the innocent people that have suffered from their acts and selfishness even without the Starks Tywin, Jaime and Tyrion have done more than enough to be hated it has nothing to do with Stark biasness.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Maybe because they're kinda like the heroes here? Dunno, it has to do with having pretty much all the family but Robb and Rickon having PoV. GRRM wants you to feel for them.

But, to be honest, I don't know why one wouldn't "like" them in the sense of them being nice people. First, they're a close family. Ned is a good father and husband, and also Cat, not a Stark, but part of the family, if we ignore anything related to Jon, she's a good mother to her children. The Stark kids are pretty much what is expected of them, so, in their society, they have managed to raise a good family. Robb, while making mistakes related to his youth, resulted to be a good leader. Sansa is a sweet young lady that was never expected to end up in a situation like it happened. Bran is mature and good natured. Arya was too young yet, but she was definitely going to grow up like a strong wilful Northern woman like the bears or Dustin. And Jon, while a bastard, has nothing but love to his half-sisters. And nevertheless, they were overplayed and betrayed once and again, because they thought everybody played with their rules. It's tragic what became of them, why couldn't one root for them at the end?

[Robb_Warged]

The North remembers. See you in book 7

[David Selig]

It don't like that characters like Tywin get more hate than they deserve because of Stark bias (and because the two Lannisters people like, Tyrion and Jaime, don't like their father either).

Yeah, why would people hate a mass murdering rape ordering scumbag? Must be Stark bias only.

[Stannis's birthright]

If there is a bias it is only because George creates characters that we could find something of ourselves in. Relate to in the Starks and for me Stannis

[sweetsunray]

Theon is a cold blooded murderer but Arya is Bat(wo)man?

I mentioned recently an anology between batman's training with Ra's al Ghul and Arya, in the "is Arya a bad guy" thread and a joke about a batmobile in Westeros.

But I mentioned it, because there is the contrast that Batman is often seen as a favourite comic hero, because he's the sole one of the superheroes without a superhuman ability really, and because of his dark side... and people rarely say "Is Batman a bad guy". I find it interesting and actually very good that people question Arya's moral status. And perhaps I was making a link that people can question Batman's moral status as a lone vigilante (something the series with Christian Bale does put forward as a question regularly).

The contrast though is that Batman is rarely ever morally questioned for his vigilante status in what is a fictional, but modern day society, and Arya - though a kid surviving in a harsh, survival of the worst society - is morally questioned. Again, as a human, I am glad that people put moral questions behind Arya's choices and actions.

[nastydream]

This phenomenon finds it way into most discussions so I feel that it has to be addressed seperately. Whether people acknowledge it or not Stark bias, the propensity by the majority of forum users to deem the side of a debate that happens to align favorably for the Starks as the correct one is very perplexing and frustrating. Whether it is thread discussing character X who did something that resulted in a Stark misfortune or group Y who is antagonistic to the Starks, or just criticizing a Stark's actions it always seems like you are reading about a select few posters who try and challenge the Stark monolith and are overcome. It stifles many topics involving issues such as the Ironborn, Daenerys, Tywin etc. Not just that, but it seems that the Starks are also held to be the paragons of virtue and justice, often at odds with the standards that are held to other characters. Theon is a cold blooded murderer but Arya is Bat(wo)man? Dany is destroying the lives of thousands of peasants but Ned and Robb are Gandhis who populated their armies with volunteers? I would laugh if these weren't things said in one way or another on a fairly regular basis. And not just the Starks, characters who help the Starks are seen as being much better as those who don't when there is fundamentally no moral difference between the two. Sandor the child murderer (who laughed at his infamy!) is viewed through a softer lens than Dany who that one time ordered an unspecified "sharp questioning" to a girl of unspecified age. Why? Likely because Sandor was helpful to the Stark girls while Dany completely justifiably spits on the name of Saint Eddard of blessed memory and spotless character. And Stannis who is seriously one of the most hypocritical, disturbing, rude and all around unlikeable characters in this entire series has created a cult of personality around himself that happened to "conveniently" coincide with when he decided to go North and help the Starks. Now he is by far the popular choice for the Throne when a cursory reading would yield him to be an abhorrent King who would spawn more rebellions than poor Davos could count on his remaining fingers. But Dany is of course the one who would destroy Westeros, not him.

I just want to get at the root of why it is so prevalent and hopefully try and create a change to a more even-handed forum environment

gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8

But seriously I agree with the so fucking over the top cult of Stannis like seriously guys calm down.

[kimim]

Of course readers empathize/side with the Starks. They're the first family we are introduced to and empathize with. They have wolves. They have Ned and Catelyn, the only decent parents in the series. They're far less murderous than the other families, and Ned was a good ruler, as people recall in SoS. We follow Ned all through the first book; his death is a trauma that reverberates through the rest of the novels. The most memorable tragedies in the novel--Bran's fall, Ned's beheading, "red wedding"--happen to the Starks. Two out of four characters who drive the plot are Starks: See Jon and Bran. Being surprised that people like the Starks is like being surprised that people like David Copperfield, in "David Copperfield."

[Errant Bard]

The North remembers. See you in book 7

One's side "winning" following a cold-blooded revenge never made one a hero. See: the Raynes of Castamere, the Freys, Richard 3, Littlefinger, or Roose Bolton.

The contrast though is that Batman is rarely ever morally questioned for his vigilante status in what is a fictional, but modern day society, and Arya - though a kid surviving in a harsh, survival of the worst society - is morally questioned. Again, as a human, I am glad that people put moral questions behind Arya's choices and actions.

Yeah, well, maybe it's linked to the fact that:

• Batman does not kill
• Arya kills
• Batman has justice as a motive
• Arya just wants to kill people
• Batman makes his own choices
• Arya acts on order

and so on?

I suppose next will come comparisons between Arya and Ghandi, and how it's cool Arya's morality is questioned even though Ghandi's is not.