Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 So let's see Catelyn and Robb are by far the most unintelligent charactersEddard Stark is a mediocre parent especially in comparison to other parentsTywin is an angel of competence, pragmatism and stability who has good reasons for his crimes and is only hated due to Stark bias. I have avoided reading the OP just going from Modelex previous posts. Not sure I would bear the displays of logic. I like this game Bran as said is a voyeuristic pervert who to satisfy his disgusting urges helps start the war.Arya is GregorClegane come again, a wild murderer and her unprovoked attempt of murder at poor Joffrey helps start the war just like the evil actions of her parentsSansa is an evil, dumb seductress that let Joffrey think she is interested to him despite her family's and her own treacherous nature and even after being well treated by the Lannisters she resents them instead of appreciating the mercy that Joffrey shows to her family.As far as I remember Jon Snow to Modelex is the one good Stark so let's ignore him.Robb is a separatist who for no good reason chose to divide the kingdom and cause war.Ned is a traitor who tried to arrest the legitimate and wise king and had a merciful quick end as a result. He is also dumb.Catellyn is an unintelligent harpy who started the war by kidnapping Tyrion, forcing Tywin who had no choice to use Gregor on the riverlands. For which she holds complete responsibility. Maybe now I will read your post and see how close I am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Red Wedding anyone? Tarbecks and Reynes? I didn't say all the hate he gets was unjustified, but sometimes people seem to make up even more reasons to hate him out of thin air. Not only because of Stark bias, but because he was built up as an antagonist of many fan favorites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Vinegar Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8 AMAZING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallofice Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I don't think there's anything wrong with having a bias towards the Starks. They are the heart of the books for me, and the main two things I want out of the series are for Westeros to thwart the coming apocalypse and for whatever Starks are left to rebuild Winterfell. If someone else feels differently and prefers the Lannisters or the Baratheons or whomever, I think that's perfectly valid as well. But to compare someone who, say, has children murdered in order to switch allegiances to someone who will stand up to their best friend and king when said children are murdered? It doesn't take a philosopher to suggest that one person is more moral than the other. Tywin might think it's more practical to kill a few hundred men at a wedding reception than it is to lose thousands at war, but even in the world he lives in, his viewpoint is considered abhorrent. You can love Tywin (or any other 'villainous' character) and still admit that they are not a good person. On the other hand, Robb breaks his engagement to marry a girl because he dishonored her. It's a dumb move, sure, and it indirectly leads to the destruction of both his campaign and his life - but he meant to do the right thing. Intentions matter when it comes to my feelings about a character and where they fall on my sliding scale of good and ...less good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equilibrium Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Just war theory traditionally holds that a war can be considered just only if it brings about the greatest good for the greatest number, is fought for a just reason in a noble fashion, and is waged by a legitimate authority. Does Young Wolf's hissy fit because his dad was imbecile and got himself head short, will not bring any good to anyone, vengeance is never just reason and what authority he has to rise against his sovereign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 There is no way that declaring yourself king because current king beheaded your father is justified. He didn't declared himself King. There is a reason why the North decided to pull themselves apart from the Kingdom. The crown took Ned's head and kept two Starks prisoners. When one of your family is taken prisoner like Ned and the girls, it's not unusual to move your people. Tywin did when Cat arrested Tyrion and up until that, it wasn't a wrong choice. Also did Mace now Margaery is expecting her trial. The stupidity happens when you actually act with that army, like Tywin did all over the Riverlands. Or Brandon Stark. Second, the North bent the knee for the Targaryens. And Ned also bent the knee for a Baratheon king, in a way, as he supported his rebellion and later claim. If the North has always chosen to be part of the Realm, why keep being part of it when the King kills the Warden of the North for some reason? The King can't do as he likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Fixed it for you! Does this font have a special meaning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I didn't say all the hate he gets was unjustified, but sometimes people seem to make up even more reasons to hate him out of thin air. Not only because of Stark bias, but because he was built up as an antagonist of many fan favorites.Tywin is a monster a evil monster who have done and been associated with nearly every atrocity that is shunned by men and gods alike, there are not enough reasons in human history to not hate this monster enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Just war theory traditionally holds that a war can be considered just only if it brings about the greatest good for the greatest number, is fought for a just reason in a noble fashion, and is waged by a legitimate authority. Does Young Wolf's hissy fit because his dad was imbecile and got himself head short, will not bring any good to anyone, vengeance is never just reason and what authority he has to rise against his sovereign. Doran was a better ruler than Robb Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Does this font have a special meaning? Yes, its the sarcasm font. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The questions shouldn't be why are people Stark biased, but why aren't more people Stark biased?Because the PoV chapters structure incites readers to not identify entirely with one character, and to think about the characters' own biases when telling their account of the story? Also because a lot of readers are not idiots and know you can root for a hero while not trying to make him into Jesus, in ASOIAF (cf: PoV structure, and characterisation a bit more complex than a disney fairytale) Maybe it came to Fantasy with Martin, maybe not, but a lot of modern Fantasy is like that now: you can take Bakker, Erikson, Abercrombie, Abraham, whatever, you look at their world saviours, they can be assholes you want to die slow painful deaths, and you look at their antagonists, they sometimes are not any more evil than the hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equilibrium Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Girls weren't hostages, I am not saying Lannisters aren't worse then Starks but for all Robb knew they where guests and treated as such. Balon had equal right to attack Winterfell because of Theon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Does this font have a special meaning? Yea, Comic Sans is used around to indicate sarcasm (because otherwise it might get lost). * ninjaed by Helena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nastydream Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Tywin is a monster a evil monster who have done and been associated with nearly every atrocity that is shunned by men and gods alike, there are not enough reasons in human history to not hate this monster enough. This, :agree: Except if it's sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Yea, Comic Sans is used around to indicate sarcasm (because otherwise it might get lost). * ninjaed by Helena I wish more people would make use of this font. I can never tell when people are trolling/sarcastic or just posting absurd comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Girls weren't hostages, I am not saying Lannisters aren't worse then Starks but for all Robb knew they where guests and treated as such. Balon had equal right to attack Winterfell because of Theon. Yeah, and than he was ravaging the Westerlands which only served the purpose of inflicting terror on the smallfolk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Just war theory traditionally holds that a war can be considered just only if it brings about the greatest good for the greatest number, is fought for a just reason in a noble fashion, and is waged by a legitimate authority. Does Young Wolf's hissy fit because his dad was imbecile and got himself head short, will not bring any good to anyone, vengeance is never just reason and what authority he has to rise against his sovereign.So Robb disposing of the Lannisters were not for the greater good? I don't think many people would say that the Lannisters staying in power is good for anyone but them. They would let all of Westeros burn if they could to stay in power, or have a lasting dynasty that controls the country or in Jaime case gets to feck his sister. I honestly thing any house in Westeros would be better in power than the Lannisters even the Greyjoys(except Frey and Bolton) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equilibrium Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Yes and Robb was going to be stalwart protector of the downtrodden but he didn't manage to get to it until certain ex-hand was headless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 So Robb disposing of the Lannisters were not for the greater good?I don't think many people would say that the Lannisters staying in power is good for anyone but them. They would let all of Westeros burn if they could to stay in power, or have a lasting dynasty that controls the country or in Jaime case gets to feck his sister.I honestly thing any house in Westeros would be better in power than the Lannisters even the Greyjoys(except Frey and Bolton)Cersei had to be removed, but Tywin's rule wasn't that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Girls weren't hostages, I am not saying Lannisters aren't worse then Starks but for all Robb knew they where guests and treated as such. Balon had equal right to attack Winterfell because of Theon. If the girls weren't hostages, why didn't they return them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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