Jump to content

Addressing Stark bias: Part 2

Modelex

By Modelex,
in General (ASoIaF)

Recommended Posts

Equilibrium Council Member

Equilibrium

Posted
Posted

I think it's other way around, house ethos is shaped by the unique traits and culture of the region the house rules, because members of the house are from that region and share some common cultural background with other population of the region which makes them more likely to share some common traits. But not all Northerners are just and hardy as well as not all Westerners are greedy and manipulative.


Link to comment
Share on other sites
Alayne's Shadow. Council Member

Alayne's Shadow.

Posted
Posted

You might be happier with some group therapy discussion thing. The fact is that your perception of certain parts of ASoIaF is at odds with the perception of larger groups of other people on these forums. That these differences are all caused by single root cause "Stark bias" is dubious at best. It makes things neat for you, but that's not particularly convincing. More likely, different people disagree with you on different issues for different reasons. Plus, of course, the notion of "Stark bias" runs into the problem that the Starks are by and large morally superior, for which we can only blame GRRM. I don't see how one could tease that apart: When "good" people do something ambiguous it is more likely to be motivated by "good" reasons than when bad people do the same ambiguous thing. That's not bias, that's sanity. Hannibal Lector and the Pope inviting you for dinner is not the same thing. (Maybe to people who have no concept of probability it is.)
Be that as it may, assuming there is such a thing as "Stark bias", what improvement does that bring to discussions? None I can see. You will have a far better chance of getting someone to agree they're biased towards Arya than getting them to agree that they have a global "pro Stark" bias across several issues. That is, assuming you get them to agree to any bias at all, because that implies you're right and they're wrong instead of the both of you having different perspectives. Plus, globally, you'd just create another tendentious notion that of course would be abused, by people having biases of their own and trying to divert attention away from them.

I mean I don't really even like the Starks. The only one I really care for is Sansa. I think the thing is that everyone is usually biased towards their fave characters and houses, and the Starks are by and large the most widely-held favorite house. So of course there's gonna be more accessible instances of bias toward the Starks happening more frequently here due to that. I chalk that up more to folks rooting for their favorite family than any insidious Stark bias among the readership as a whole. I mean, I like the Martells, they're my favorites, so I'm totally biased in favor of them. Doesn't mean I can't see them and their actions more objectively if I stop and think about it for a little. Same with Stark fans.

The ONLY thing that gets me is when folks fail to differentiate between the moral tone of the House Paramount of a region and the rest of the people in that region. The idea that Northerners as a group are x amount more honorable than the rest of Westeros because they have an notably honorable Lord Paramount is just ridiculous. That being said, though, I have no idea if that is a falsehood that's widespread and that people actually subscribe to or if it's just an artifact of this discussion, a straw man set up to more easily oppose Stark fans.

This.

Yea, just when I'd lost faith in the forum with these recent OPs whose sole purpose seems to only want to provoke and not debate, cxvb is the light in the darkness.

Yeah, and the sad thing is, this time around, nobody's taking the bait.

The Freys deserved what Manderly did to them and than some. Manderly should have told the other Freys how he butchered their family and feed them to them. I cheered when he did this it couldn't happen to a more deserving house of murderers besides the Lannisters.

Manderly has every right to his vengeance these animals murdered his son and men than tried blaming Robb and than they lie under his roof. I condone everything that's done to the Freys.

This isn't my Stark bias it's my complete and unrelenting hatred of the Freys.

Again, this. The Freys broke the one right everybody had in Westeros. I don't blame Manderly as much as I wouldn't blame Oberyn if he had killed Tywin, Gregor and Armory Lorch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ser Jonny Loker Freerider

Ser Jonny Loker

Posted
Posted

Oh jesus. Bias? Because we see some characters as better than others? That's how the story is written. It's not bias to say 'hey, these people are pretty good people, and these aren't'. No one is saying that any character is perfect, and of course the Starks have made mistakes and done some bad things, as well. But that doesn't put them on the same tier as the Lannisters, who have betrayed, murdered and swindled their way into a position of extreme power. I'm not about to address 'Theon', as that's a dead end argument around here. But the Starks have their strengths and weaknesses, but the fact of the matter is that the story revolves around them and has done so from the very beginning. You might as well ask people why they favor characters like Jean Valjean over Javert...the story is written where one is the protagonist and the other is not.

I agree, the story used to revolve around the Starks. Right now... eh, not so much. But with rumors of "the wolves will return" I'm excited for Rickon, Bran, and Sansa (not Arya if she becomes a Faceless Man).

Link to comment
Share on other sites
cxvb Squire

cxvb

Posted
Posted

Arya use to be one of my favorite characters until she became kill crazy.

Same here.

But, to address the OP, I think any Arya-bias is more likely motivated by the Batman effect (well, Rorschach & Moon Knight might be more appropriate but not everyone reads comics) which is an interesting phenomenon in itself, a pro-vigilante position that isn't limited to rednecks, the far right and loony libertarians but is socially acceptable among lots of liberals who take a dim view of neighbourhood watch and stand your ground laws. Or pop culture ninja, same thing, a group of murderers, yet somehow cool. (And, for my money Martin is doing a terrific job at subverting those troupes with Aryas development.)

Unfortunately, there isn't anyone else in the novels undergoing a similar development so that we might attempt to separate "Stark bias" from "Ninja bias". (Wouldn't work anyway IMHO there'd be lots of small differences which could explain differences in reception equally well.) Aside from Dany (whole other can of worms, but Dany vs. Kraznys might be a fitting example) I can only think of Sam and Podrick as making a similar development from powerless to not quite as powerless and at least Podrick's murder of Moore appears to earn him little ill-will. Jaqen H'ghar murders several people and seems popular as well, so that supports the "Ninja bias" in my opinion.

It's an odd expectation to think that all Northerners must embody the Stark ethos (or that the Westermen with House Lannister, etc.)

Agreed, but blame GRRM ;-) The way I read the books, especially AGOT mad a big point of the northerners being different culturally (true), worshipping different gods (true) and following a simpler, purer, better moral code. The south, by comparison is corrupt, knigthly vows are mere lip service etc. Part of that is Ned's and the other POV's bias, partly that's simply what is happening. It's not until Roose's betrayal in ASOS that we start to see that image of the North fall apart and then it's only the exception to the rule (Karstark's murder of the squires is also presented as an exception). Manderley's Frey pies, the Umbers, Barbrey Dustin and all that stuff are in ADWD. So I'd blame inertia, much as e.g. the perception of Sansa is heavily influenced by her early chapters.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lee-Sensei Council Member

Lee-Sensei

Posted
Posted

That's because you're biased in favor of Theon.

You'd like to believe that wouldn't you. In truth, the reason that I can recognize that theirs a strong bias in the case of Theon is because I'm unbiased. Theon was a hostage of the Starks and owed them nothing. It's very convenient that you deleted the rest of my post where I said that Ned Stark was "a Great Lord of the North as shown by their continued dedication to him years after his death". But yeah... I'm the one who's biased. That makes sense! :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites
JonCon's Red Beard Council Member

JonCon's Red Beard

Posted
Posted

Martell.

I remind you that while Doran didn't want to risk his own people into war, he was very likely going to do that as soon as he knew he had chances to winning, but that doesn't mean he was going to actually going to win, nor that his people wouldn't die. So, I dunno if we can call "morally superior" to the fact that he was going to start a war for revenge, specially if such war was against the Lannisters, known for their cruelty and "payment" to those who wrong them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lee-Sensei Council Member

Lee-Sensei

Posted
Posted

I remind you that while Doran didn't want to risk his own people into war, he was very likely going to do that as soon as he knew he had chances to winning, but that doesn't mean he was going to actually going to win, nor that his people wouldn't die. So, I dunno if we can call "morally superior" to the fact that he was going to start a war for revenge, specially if such war was against the Lannisters, known for their cruelty and "payment" to those who wrong them.

That's what Robb was doing anything. At the very least, they haven't done anything to make them morally inferior to the Starks at this point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
John Doe Council Member

John Doe

Posted
Posted

You cannot judge them for hings they haven't done yet. And he waited until his chances for winning were better partially because he knew that Tywin paid his debts, or that he knew that the smallfolk would have to pay for a lost war in general.



I'll leave the rest to the Martell fans. :)


Link to comment
Share on other sites
Frey Pie Council Member

Frey Pie

Posted
Posted

I'm not biased in favor of the Martells, but keeping the smallfolk out of the war was the best thing to do. He chose his duty as a ruler over his personal desires, the Starks didn't.

Except the only reason he kept them out of the war was so that he could throw them into another war later on so....ya personal desires winning our for him there too

Link to comment
Share on other sites
RoamingRonin Council Member

RoamingRonin

Posted
Posted

You'd like to believe that wouldn't you. In truth, the reason that I can recognize that theirs a strong bias in the case of Theon is because I'm unbiased. Theon was a hostage of the Starks and owed them nothing. It's very convenient that you deleted the rest of my post where I said that Ned Stark was "a Great Lord of the North as shown by their continued dedication to him years after his death". But yeah... I'm the one who's biased. That makes sense! :rolleyes:

Point proven.

Oh, and I deleted the rest of your post because it had nothing to do with the Theon comment. That was the only thing I wanted to address.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...