Queen in the North?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

? Maybe I'm mistaken but they are blood relatives (cousins) to little Robin and if there is some sort of succession issue or the line of Arryns dies out that is IMO enough to put them on the table as possible contenders.

If they could inherit from their uncle why not their cousin?

Granted, even if this is a "claim" it's a very weak one- but wars have been fought on lesser pretexts, and with armies and a marriage alliance within the Vale (Sansa-anyone) it might serve to help legitimate their rule.

The inheritance goes thru the Aryn blood line. They are cousin's to Sweet Robin but thru his mother's Tully line. The Stark Kids could be possible heirs to River Run but not the Vale.

If Sansa had a claim Littlefinger would not be trying to marry her to Harry the Heir.

[The Undead Martyr]

The problem I have with a Queen in the North is that if one of the female Starks inherits the seat then that means all the male heirs are dead, which means the end of the Stark line.

Not necessarily- sometimes IRL and even moreso in canon the female line can take on the name of the extinct male line in whole or in part. IIRC this happened before with the She Wolves. EG say Edmure, the Blackfish, and Edmure's kid all die ( :frown5: ) and one of the Starks or their kids inherits- they likely change their name to Tully along with their seat. There's also Lancel and his Darry wife in AFFC.

This, IMO, is why we have lines so old- the lack of male heir was a top dynasty killer.

The inheritance goes thru the Aryn blood line. They are cousin's to Sweet Robin but thru his mother's Tully line. The Stark Kids could be possible heirs to River Run but not the Vale.

If Sansa had a claim Littlefinger would not be trying to marry her to Harry the Heir.

Cool, thanks for clarifying. Even if she did have a claim, though, a marriage to Harry would make sense- combining claims through marriage especially as a female is medieval politics 101.

I still see Sansa as totally viable as Lady Arryn/Hardying/of the Vale.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Don't forget that the Stark kids also have a (very) weak claim on the Vale, through their aunt. I expect Sansa will be Lady of either the Vale or the Riverlands by the time this is done, she seems more "southron" than most. She could rule the North but I think one of her siblings will instead.

Rickon and Arya.... of the two I feel like Arya would be preferable as ruler, both being older and possibly getting Dany's backing if/when the two meet, and FM skills are good for your intrigue score. Rickon is what, five? He's even more feral than his sister, probably remembers next to nothing of Ned's teachings, and may or may not end up dead (though I can see any/all of the Starks dying). Bran is a cripple and a greenseer and I don't see him leaving the Cave, Jon I don't think would take the North over his siblings though depending on how the conflict turns out he could take up the title or at least regency to fight off the others.

Technically Jon's claim (even ignoring his Vows) is after all of his siblings, girl or not.

Of course that wouldn't stop an ambitious bastard from trying, especially with an underage female in charge in time of war, but Jon won't go against his sister.

Bran is out of the running IMO.

I think it all boils down to whether Rickon lives (and is found/recovered) or dies, and what happens down south- does Edmure/his child live, does Sweetrobin die, etc.

Robb's will is considered to have made Jon his heir. Foregoing all his true born brothers and sisters.

[The Undead Martyr]

Robb's will is considered to have made Jon his heir. Foregoing all his true born brothers and sisters.

Maybe, maybe not. The Will could be lost, Jon might reject it out of hand, Jon might stay dead (unlikely but still), R+L=J could cause problems etc..

It depends on Jon more than anything, and will or no will I think he would step down if/when a sibling returned.

[FireAndBlood.]

The problem I have with a Queen in the North is that if one of the female Starks inherits the seat then that means all the male heirs are dead, which means the end of the Stark line.

No it doesn't. People can inherit matrilineally in Westeros. If Sansa or Arya inherited Winterfell they would quite simply keep their own name after marriage (as Sansa already has with Tyrion) and their children would too. The name would live on.

I dont think the North has ever had a Queen before (I believe it was confirmed recently - I could be wrong though) and if in 8,000 years of existence the North has never had a Queen then there probably is a law or a very good reason preventing it from happening

The history books don't speak of one, but this is something that I will never buy, no matter how much it is "confirmed". You cannot have an 8000 year old dynasty without a single female head of house.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Maybe, maybe not. The Will could be lost, Jon might reject it out of hand, Jon might stay dead (unlikely but still), R+L=J could cause problems etc..

It depends on Jon more than anything, and will or no will I think he would step down if/when a sibling returned.

The will may be lost but why discuss its writing if its meaningless? Jon might reject it but the opportunity remains there. R+J=J might cause issues as he wouldn't be Eddard's son and Eddards children are the rightful heirs but then he may marry one of Eddard's kids to join the lines, keeping Eddard's blood and enacting King Robb's will. There are a few options which mean he cannot be dismissed.

No it doesn't. People can inherit matrilineally in Westeros. If Sansa or Arya inherited Winterfell they would quite simply keep their own name after marriage (as Sansa already has with Tyrion) and their children would too. The name would live on.

The history books don't speak of one, but this is something that I will never buy, no matter how much it is "confirmed". You cannot have an 8000 year old dynasty without a single female head of house.

Sansa has not kept her name when marrying Tyrion. She may call herself Sansa Stark, to everyone else she is a Lannister as Stannis showed and Jon did not deny. As with everything in this world, power is key. Lancel married the Darry claimant and it is now House Lannister of Darry, Tywin expected House Lannister of Winterfell too. As the Royal power they could enforce it. Who is going to care to force the Mormonts to do any different to what they do already? Argella Durrandon was forced to give up her name by Royal power too.

Girls inherited and married male relatives, the male became Lord of Winterfell through her claim I would guess.

[FireAndBlood.]

Sansa has not kept her name when marrying Tyrion. She may call herself Sansa Stark, to everyone else she is a Lannister as Stannis showed and Jon did not deny. As with everything in this world, power is key. Lancel married the Darry claimant and it is now House Lannister of Darry, Tywin expected House Lannister of Winterfell too. As the Royal power they could enforce it. Who is going to care to force the Mormonts to do any different to what they do already? Argella Durrandon was forced to give up her name by Royal power too.

How can you say she hasn't kept her name and then admit that she calls herself Sansa Stark? I'm also quite sure that she has considerable say over whether or not she keeps her own name. Cersei married the King and still didn't take the name Baratheon and was never associated with House Baratheon at any point.

And she isn't known as Lannister to everyone else. Mladen is more familiar with this than I am, but I am quite sure that the only person who considers her a Lannister post-wedding is Stannis. To everyone else she's still Sansa of House Stark.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Because what she calls herself doesn't matter. I could call myself Geraldo and it wouldn't be my actual legal name. Cersei married the king and called all her children Baratheons, that is taking his name. She joined his house, he did not join hers.

Do you consider Cat to still be a Tully? I do, she doesn't magically change her personage. Doesn't change that she is Lady Stark. Same as being a Stark doesn't change Sansa is still Lady Lannister. Stannis mentions it, Jon does not disagree, Robb mentions it when writing the will, Cat does not disagree. It is what it is. It doesn't change that you love Sansa, it doesn't change who she is. Its a name.

[The Undead Martyr]

Because what she calls herself doesn't matter. I could call myself Geraldo and it wouldn't be my actual legal name. Cersei married the king and called all her children Baratheons, that is taking his name. She joined his house, he did not join hers.

Do you consider Cat to still be a Tully? I do, she doesn't magically change her personage. Doesn't change that she is Lady Stark. Same as being a Stark doesn't change Sansa is still Lady Lannister. Stannis mentions it, Jon does not disagree, Robb mentions it when writing the will, Cat does not disagree. It is what it is. It doesn't change that you love Sansa, it doesn't change who she is. Its a name.

And a Stark Restoration would need a Lady Stark; they are one of if not the oldest houses and the legitimacy of the name means that any lord of Winterfell is going to want to tie himself as close to them as possible. Barring something like a Bolton takeover (and we saw how shaky that is even in canon) that depends on utterly crushing the Starks I think they have too much dynastic inertia for anyone claiming it through a Stark wife not to take the Stark name.

Realistically I think Tywin was being a bit too arrogant if he thought he could crush them like he did to the Reynes. The north is very far away and a very different culture to the South, in time I think any of Tyrion's kids by Sansa would have gone native by necessity.

[Annara Snow]

Sansa will smoke Littlefinger at some point and bring The Vale down on the Boltons and Freys. i see her as the Lady of Winterfell. Maybe Queen but Rickon and Robb's will are in the way and I cant see Sansa working against Rickon, Jon yes as she never cared for Jon.

"She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still... with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise."

If GRRM plans for Sansa to ruthlessly go against Jon in the fight to get Winterfell, he sure has a strange way of setting that up...

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Realistically I think Tywin was being a bit too arrogant if he thought he could crush them like he did to the Reynes. The north is very far away and a very different culture to the South, in time I think any of Tyrion's kids by Sansa would have gone native by necessity.

I don't think Tywin's plan to marry Sansa to Tyrion was a plan that Tywin had thought about for long, it was more of a spur of the moment type deal.

Sansa fell into their laps after Margery married Joff and they could not risk marrying Sansa off to another family and give Winterfell to them along with her.

Plus Tywin doesn't really like Tyrion so if it ended up with him dead, no big loss.

[Pod The Rod]

No it doesn't. People can inherit matrilineally in Westeros. If Sansa or Arya inherited Winterfell they would quite simply keep their own name after marriage (as Sansa already has with Tyrion) and their children would too. The name would live on.

The history books don't speak of one, but this is something that I will never buy, no matter how much it is "confirmed". You cannot have an 8000 year old dynasty without a single female head of house.

Even if there has never been one, there's a first time for everything. Westeros had never been united until the Conqueror, but all of a sudden it was.

And of course married women who are rulers in their own right keep their own names when married, with the exception of being married to a man who is also a ruling Lord. The current House Arryn are descended from Lady Jeyne Arryn. Have they stopped being House Arryn?

[Annara Snow]

Because what she calls herself doesn't matter. I could call myself Geraldo and it wouldn't be my actual legal name. Cersei married the king and called all her children Baratheons, that is taking his name. She joined his house, he did not join hers.

Do you consider Cat to still be a Tully? I do, she doesn't magically change her personage. Doesn't change that she is Lady Stark. Same as being a Stark doesn't change Sansa is still Lady Lannister. Stannis mentions it, Jon does not disagree, Robb mentions it when writing the will, Cat does not disagree. It is what it is. It doesn't change that you love Sansa, it doesn't change who she is. Its a name.

No, she's not. Stannis is the only person who ever called her that, because he was being an asshole ranting at Jon for not doing what he wanted him to do. Jon didn't say contradict him because Stannis is the king, contradicting him in everything including things that don't matter (like how he calls your sister) would not be smart.

(Somehow I doubt that Stannis ever calls Arya (i.e. who he thinks is Arya) "Lady Bolton" while trying to get the clansmen to help him fight and free her... Hmmm...)

Robb and Cat never called her that, and Robb was trying to deny Tyrion, not Sansa, because Sansa was a hostage in KL, and he thought the Lannisters would get a baby from her and then kill her.

Nobody in the books other than Stannis, while he was pursuing his agenda of discrediting Sansa, ever calls Sansa a Lannister. Nobody.

(Do we really need to go through this again?)

[Cavendish]

Arya? Queen of the North? *dies laughing*

[Pod The Rod]

Arya? Queen of the North? *dies laughing*

It's not so crazy an idea as it seems. I'll agree it's not likely to happen, but it's not farfetched and I believe she'd do quite a good job.

[Luddagain]

Genetically and in our REAL world the carry a family SIRNAME means passing on the MALE Y chromosome. Now while it probably is a fairly useless chromosome, nevertheless it is the one constant think in MALE inheritance ie you can trace a male ancestor back MILLIONS of years using this Y chromosome. The reality is that each generation your Stark blood is divided in two, so that the Stark kids are only 50% Stark. After three generations only 12.5% of any person's genetic content is likely to be from their great grandfather and for a great, great, great grandfather only 3% (or one - two chromosomes of 46.

For any Stark descended from Cregan Stark on average less than 1% (about 0.8%) of their total genetic component is that of Cregan. This means that 50% of girls would have NO possible chromosome coming from Cregan Stark. By contrast boys in the male line MUST have at least one of their 46 chromosomes the same as that of Cregan. In a fantasy world where blood ie genetic inheritance matters, this is bloody important.

Now since the CORE of our genetic makeup is transferred solely via the FEMALE line (mitochondrial DNA) the reality is that the Stark kids are less than 50% Stark and have a fraction of the genetic component of Cregan. At first glance it is hard to see why they are Starks at all

BUT, BUT, BUT

There is a REASON for cousin marriages. Rickard married Lyarra Stark immediately more than doubling the Stark % in the kids, while it seems probable that Cregan himself married a Stark (Lynara) so that the % may be increased much further too. Some of the Flints, Norrys and Karstarks will also have a bit of stark blood

So what this means is that the Stark girls are NOT Starks in the sense of genetically carrying on the line of Starkness. Their mother is a Tully so they do not have mitochondrial DNA from Stark line, nor do they have the male Stark gene. A child of Sansa's to Tyrion, Petyr or Harry Harding, would:

Have NO Northern mitochondrial DNA

No male Stark chromosome

25% on average of Ned Stark's DNA.

[Luddagain]

Actually I think that the ORIGINAL plan of GRRM was for Arya to marry cousin Jon Snow. Like her heroine Nymeria she would Lead her people back and become Queen in the North. I am not sure if this has changed BUT I strongly suspect that Arya will be Queen in the North possible married to someone with Stark lineage. Her wolf is Nymeria and I therefore expect Arya to have a life that parallels that of Nymeria.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

If Sansa's Lady Lannister, then "Arya" is Lady Bolton. But we don't see anyone using those names, so...

[Luddagain]

I Catelyn Lady Tully or Lady Stark? Is Barbary Dustin Lady Dustin of Lady Ryswell.

Get real. It is married names that matter. if Sansa became Queen in the North she would be Lady (Lannister, Baelish, Harding) Queen of the North and her kids would be little Lannister, Baelish or Hardings. She might well name the eldest boy Stark Lannister/Baelish/Harding.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I think that at the end of Winds of Winter, Sansa will be in name at least Queen in the North, with LF ruling the Riverlands, and her marrying into the Vale through Harry the Heir. Granted she will be a puppet queen to LF, but I think by the end of the book she'll fully realize how monstrous he is underneath his affability.

LF will use the chaos in the Riverlands and the North to march out of the Vale with a full army. While offering the Freys protection from the Brotherhood, the other Riverland houses (once they get most of the hostages back), and Stannis in the North, LF will then raze the Twins from the inside out in brutal fashion, where the GreatJon (still imprisoned in the Twins) will crown Sansa the Queen in the North like he did her brother. Sansa will be taken aback by how brutal the massacre is since only the hostages were spared in the name of Robb and Catelyn Stark, but LF will tell Sansa that soft hearts of women can not truly understand what is needed in war. Sansa will figure out that LF told Joffrey to execute her father and that he is responsible for the downfall of her house, thinking back to what Lysa said before her death and finally understanding what she was saying.

LF and Sansa will then march North to Moat Cailin, and while LF is preparing to siege it, they surprisingly open their gates and let their army pass. There they find out that Rickon and Bran Stark are still alive, Jon has risen from the grave and been legitimized as a Targaryen and Stark, and that the Wall is about to fall from the Invasion of the Others, and they need all the men they can get to defend the realm. LF gets even more psychotic and abusive towards Sansa, and she knows that with her claim now basically worthless that he is plotting the deaths of her brothers.