Dagger and Coin II: Spoilers through The Spider's War

[Underfoot]

I'm assuming at some point in the final book we're going to get a face-to-face confrontation between Cithrin and Geder, although I'm not sure under what circumstances it might happen. Perhaps Cithrin might get kidnapped or otherwise captured, I can imagine the Anteans at least trying to do that even if Marcus will be ready to stop the threat.

Does anyone remember the exact details of the prophecy Geder was given during the first (second?) book? The first time he meets Cithrin, he'll get what he needs? (money/fame). Second time, he'll get what he wants? (sex). What is the third one? I remember thinking it might be absolution for his crimes, i.e. Cithrin forgives him. So maybe they meet at a treaty signing/surrender? Not sure how likely that will be based on Cithrin's thoughts towards him in this book though.

[Rhom]

Does anyone remember the exact details of the prophecy Geder was given during the first (second?) book? The first time he meets Cithrin, he'll get what he needs? (money/fame). Second time, he'll get what he wants? (sex). What is the third one? I remember thinking it might be absolution for his crimes, i.e. Cithrin forgives him. So maybe they meet at a treaty signing/surrender? Not sure how likely that will be based on Cithrin's thoughts towards him in this book though.

I don't recall the exact details, I just remember that he would meet her three times and she would be someone different each time.

[Mr. X]

I don't recall the exact details, I just remember that he would meet her three times and she would be someone different each time.

Here are some relevant bits from the book:

"I know you," she [the seer] said, then turned and spat on the ground. "When I was a girl, I had a dream about you."

...

"You will see her thrice," she said, "and you will be different people each time. And each time, she will give you what you want. You have already seen her once."

So no real details, but they will both be someone different each time.

Between those two quoted bits, the seer also tells the story about her uncle having an illness with no signs, the last part of which is what troubles Geder afterwards:

"It was a dream," the seer said patiently. "He ate bitter herbs to cure himself, and afterward the water he drank tasted sweet. But there wasn't anything in it but water. The sweet was in him, and it wasn't sweet really. Only that it wasn't bitter. It didn't have the power to cure anything."

[Mack Kilimaro]

Considering Geder's final line in this book, what he wants the third time could be for Cithrin to depose him from power. He might even want death.

[Migey]

I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being something like Cithrin lying to him, telling him that she loved him and only conspired against him because of the influence of the Timzinae or something. Exactly like Geder wants to hear.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

WilliamJm, Mormont,

I think the entr'acte might be intending to reiterate one of Kit's points throughout the book that the Anteans aren't the real enemy, it's the chaos caused by the spider priests. Dannien's stated intentions to do to Antea what they did to the Timzinae homelands is exactly the sort of thing that Morade would have wanted to happen.

An excellent point. I wondered about the point of the Heretic spider priests until you mentioned this.

[karaddin]

The father is the relationship that actually gets me more. You've got that scene in the gentleman's club where the Dad is apologising for failing Geder somehow, even though he has no idea how, because he sees the monster Geder has turned into and regrets it - he thought his quiet nerdy son was fantastic and loved him. Geder completely misses it as usual and is all "yeah you raised me and look how awesome it's turned out, I'm regent and everyone is scared of me and shit. You must be so proud".

The Dad is so just quiet and seems like a good guy, wanting nothing to do with the awful political games the other nobles play so it really choked me up.

[Mark Ryswell]

I can't wrap my head around that Jasuru fisherman trying to shoo Inys away from his fishing grounds at the start. How insane was he?

[Andrew Gilfellon]

Kit will die because the other option is to imprison him. If he lives there is the chance he might prick his finger and infect someone, or someone who knows about the Spiders will seek him out.

Also. remember the prophecy in Book One? You will see her three times and each time you will be different people and she will give you what you want?

Kind of struck me when I realised the next book is the last book and what Geder whispered to the child.

[Darth Richard II]

So the next book is due out any day now, right? :p

[Altherion]

Kit will die because the other option is to imprison him. If he lives there is the chance he might prick his finger and infect someone, or someone who knows about the Spiders will seek him out.

This is only a valid reason to kill him if you are absolutely sure he is the last human being infected with the spiders. I'm not sure how they will ever get to this position and as long as there is the chance of others, it's best to keep him around to be able to demonstrate the nature of the spiders.

[Tears of Lys]

Well, I finally finished it. Really hated to end it there, but I can see how it just ramps up the drama for the inevitable meeting between Cithrin and Geder. Wonder how she'll give him what he wants the third time... what form his end will take.

Clara Kalliam is another wonderful and fully-realized character in this series that's full of them. Marcus and Kit too. And I'm crazy about Yardem - he's funny and so close a portrait of the faithful hound that'll bite if you misuse him. (Love the expressive ears!)

And I feel exactly like I should about Geder - horror-stricken at his casual evil, yet pitying as you see what he SHOULD have been but for the spider priests around him. There's a section in third the book where Geder stumbles across Aster's tutor's copy of an old book that mentions something about a "wise general," and you can see it grabs his interest. He carries it off (to the consternation of the old Cinnae tutor) and is immediately met up with the head spider priest, who proceeds to "talk" to him for the rest of the evening. As Geder's lying in bed hours later, he realizes he would have loved to read that book.

And I wonder if The Drowned will play any role in the last book. They have been like living seaweed throughout most of the story, as the Kurtadam describes them in the section on the 13 races at the end of every book.

I find myself wishing this series were a LOT longer! I want to meet all the races!

The father is the relationship that actually gets me more. You've got that scene in the gentleman's club where the Dad is apologising for failing Geder somehow, even though he has no idea how, because he sees the monster Geder has turned into and regrets it - he thought his quiet nerdy son was fantastic and loved him. Geder completely misses it as usual and is all "yeah you raised me and look how awesome it's turned out, I'm regent and everyone is scared of me and shit. You must be so proud".

The Dad is so just quiet and seems like a good guy, wanting nothing to do with the awful political games the other nobles play so it really choked me up.

Yes, absolutely. The relationship between Geder and his dad is the one that gets me too.

Aster, OTOH, although there are warm moments and you can feel the caring between them, I don't feel he'll be a good leader. Aster has been way too influenced by what he's seen Geder do AND by constant influence by the Spider priests. How he comes out of this unscathed is beyond me.

Wonderful book, though. Didn't want it to end.

[karaddin]

On that point, I didn't find the "let's station guards outside their palace" thing as touching, it was Geder training Aster in the abuse of power and raising a tyrant. I think Aster actually fits what you say better ToL, he was a good little kid but he has been far too influenced by the spider priests (particularly Basrahip) and Geder to end up a good King.

Geder on the other hand burned Vanai before he even read about the spider priests so he was always a monster, and the quiet nerd, the spider priests have just used him.

I think Geder is a strong exploration of nerd resentment and entitlement (see his feelings about Cithrin) that has come from seeing an awful lot of shit online.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Karradin,

I think Geder is a strong exploration of nerd resentment and entitlement (see his feelings about Cithrin) that has come from seeing an awful lot of shit online.

Which is exactly why Geder resonates so strongly for so many of us, myself included. He's a dark mirror. He thinks he's a "nice" guy but he's angry and resentful. That anger boils out in thing like Vanai and his de-humanization of the Timzinae.

[Tears of Lys]

On that point, I didn't find the "let's station guards outside their palace" thing as touching, it was Geder training Aster in the abuse of power and raising a tyrant. I think Aster actually fits what you say better ToL, he was a good little kid but he has been far too influenced by the spider priests (particularly Basrahip) and Geder to end up a good King.

Geder on the other hand burned Vanai before he even read about the spider priests so he was always a monster, and the quiet nerd, the spider priests have just used him.

I think Geder is a strong exploration of nerd resentment and entitlement (see his feelings about Cithrin) that has come from seeing an awful lot of shit online.

You're right. Whenever I find myself reasoning away his behavior (Geder's) by saying Basrahip has been force feeding him, I do think of Vanai. He is haunted by it, but murdering a city full of people is beyond any mere guilt he feels about his deed.

ETA: And, yes, the "let's station guards outside of their palace" had a sinister ring to it, as did Aster's reaction.

[Mack Kilimaro]

Karradin,

Which is exactly why Geder resonates so strongly for so many of us, myself included. He's a dark mirror. He thinks he's a "nice" guy but he's angry and resentful. That anger boils out in thing like Vanai and his de-humanization of the Timzinae.

Dark mirror is such a great way of putting it. Gah. I can't stop myself from gushing about how brilliantly written and created villain Geder is whenever I start to think about it. He's just so... real, and resonates so strongly with me at certain times, then he swerves from these moments that remind me of things I have felt into insane pursuit of genocide. It's nuts. And I think I love to hate him all the more because of that resemblance.

Got to agree with those who think Aster is basically screwed as far as growing up to be a decent person. He would need some serious adjustment at this point. Maybe if Geder and the entire spider priest influence is excised from his life post haste, he'll have some chance, but even then I think too many lessons have sunk in about how to casually abuse the power of the state to advance your own cause or belief.

[karaddin]

Scot - Thinking of all the replies, tweets etc you've seen in the last week, I wouldn't even say it's the mirror that is always dark (although I'd like to think it's the case for all of us in here). I'll just be glad these people will only ever have power like Geder's in game worlds.

[Bolivar]

Are we supposed to hate nerds now?

When I first read the series, I thought Vanai was all about how any person, being at the wrong place at the wrong time, could possibly have the extreme lapse in judgment to commit an atrocity like that. But as the main characters condemned him as a monster and reading a lot of the comments here, it almost feels like we're supposed to feel good that we relegate such people to their isolated hobbies.

[Migey]

Yeeahhhh I don't think ordering a city to be burnt down could be considered an 'extreme lapse in judgement' based on the specific circumstances. And no, we're not supposed to hate all nerds now. Geder is kind of a special case.

[Bolivar]

Ok, so not the wrong person having power at wrong place at the wrong time, he really just is a monster. Got it.