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Dagger and Coin II: Spoilers through The Spider's War


Rhom

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I've been saying "Eye-nis" in my head. :dunno:

This might be the perfect time for the summon author spell! Or perhaps if REG heard him talk about it at all when he was at the book signing for Cibola Burn a couple months back. :dunno:

Your summon author spell is powerful. :bowdown:

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The only question I would have for him is really a request - make this series longer!

A fruitless request, I know, because I imagine a series is like a house structure - you start adding on rooms that weren't planned for, and the whole thing doesn't hold up.

I'm doing my slow reread of The Widow's House now - savoring it. :)

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I would rather it not be made longer than the original design. Of the fantasy series I've read that have gone downhill, the most common reason is that the story slows down to the point where it's not interesting anymore.

I've finished re-reading the first two books. There are a couple of things that were clearer than the first time around. First, Dawson was right. When I first read it, I thought he was just fundamentally against change and the fact that he opposed the priests was similar to a broken clock being accurate twice a day. Upon re-reading, it turns out that he correctly identified one of the two spider abilities (the persuasiveness) and while he was wrong about the reason Geder was watching for signs from the priests, he correctly surmised they would be calling the shots.

Second, Geder looks somewhat worse than he did the first time. I thought that the only evil thing he did by himself is the burning of Vanai and that was due mostly to having no idea what he is doing, but in fact he also orders the genocide of the nobility of Asterilhold without much intervention from the priests (it doesn't happen because Dawson tricks him, but the moral weight of the action is not lessened by that).

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I would rather it not be made longer than the original design. Of the fantasy series I've read that have gone downhill, the most common reason is that the story slows down to the point where it's not interesting anymore.

I've finished re-reading the first two books. There are a couple of things that were clearer than the first time around. First, Dawson was right. When I first read it, I thought he was just fundamentally against change and the fact that he opposed the priests was similar to a broken clock being accurate twice a day. Upon re-reading, it turns out that he correctly identified one of the two spider abilities (the persuasiveness) and while he was wrong about the reason Geder was watching for signs from the priests, he correctly surmised they would be calling the shots.

Second, Geder looks somewhat worse than he did the first time. I thought that the only evil thing he did by himself is the burning of Vanai and that was due mostly to having no idea what he is doing, but in fact he also orders the genocide of the nobility of Asterilhold without much intervention from the priests (it doesn't happen because Dawson tricks him, but the moral weight of the action is not lessened by that).

Oh, I know - (re: making the series longer.) It was more a wish to spend more time with some of my favorite characters.

And, yes, the order to wipe out the nobles of Asterilhold, men, women, and children, was done so cavalierly and, IIRC, between bites of food - very offhand - that it made my skin crawl. He is an evil man with a **few** good qualities. Hey, even Hitler loved his dog, y'know?

And even though Dawson was wrong about some things, (i.e., being so against the farmers' council, for one; keeping slaves another) he was certainly right about Geder.

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Dawson was a fantastic character too. I really feel this series has done a lot of excellent work with subversion where some seem to think it's more of a vanilla fantasy series, but it's all subtle and excellent. With his opposition to the farmers council, his racism (there is a reason Clara never believes he would have been working with the Timzinae - it's that he was too racist for that), and his complete confidence in the superiority of the noble class he would typically be an antagonist. Isaandrian is actually another wonderful character, and I hope there is a role for him to play in the final book - he is the one who typically would be the good noble, championing progressive policies even now with Geder in power and he knows it's going nowhere. And back in the first book he absolutely was allied with the traitor and almost brought the kingdom down without knowing.


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Ok. Finally. Loved it. Yet ii remain conflicted on Cithrin and Geder. There are times I love reading their chapters, there are times I loathe trading them. The petulance of both of them just hates at times.

Mind you, it is still excellent reading.

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Finished Widow's House. Pretty good book. I enjoyed it more than the previous two. What are the odds a bank run where everyone tries to convert their debt into gold happens? If it'd follow history, the various kingdoms in the plan would have to intervene to prevent gold exchanges, confidence in the paper currency would drop and there'd be a panic.



Also I was just ctrl-f'ing through the first book for instances of Morade, and I found that Morade apparently died in Camnipol, not on that island that Inys sunk. I wonder what the significance of that is. Inys' plan was a total waste?


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Finished Widow's House. Pretty good book. I enjoyed it more than the previous two. What are the odds a bank run where everyone tries to convert their debt into gold happens? If it'd follow history, the various kingdoms in the plan would have to intervene to prevent gold exchanges, confidence in the paper currency would drop and there'd be a panic.

Going by IRL, they've got a good 16 years (South Seas Bubble). When the British first did this it took them something like two generations to get it working right. But it gave them the world.

Yes, there will be bubbles and crashes and panics. Cithrin is young and cavalier (I'm recalling her internal monologue of contempt towards the royal treasurer when starting up versus what her boss considered Job One once started. Also I think she let the ability to engage in price-fixing of a crown staple income source sail over her head. She is young and what she doesn't know or understand she ignores and arrogantly undervalues, this will change with age and what she doesn't understand will fill her with anxiety and she will also be anxious over what she might no know. She is not an adult. She is a post-adolescent, and that barely.). There will be corrections. If they don't have their culture more or less right, it would be a disaster. But they already have a banking culture, and a generational relationship with the nation in question. So yes, this is a world-beater.

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I finished it on Friday, and I absolutely loved it. This is quickly moving up to the top of my favorite fantasy series of all time. I don't "like" all of the characters, but I love reading about all of them. I was disappointed that the book ended at the 90% mark on my kindle, because I was at 87% Thursday night and could have easily finished but I wanted to save a robust portion to read the next day.

One thing I haven't seen brought up yet is Vicarian - how long until he goes rogue? I don't think he makes it through the winter. So I wonder what role that will play with Clara, et al.

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I finished it on Friday, and I absolutely loved it. This is quickly moving up to the top of my favorite fantasy series of all time. I don't "like" all of the characters, but I love reading about all of them. I was disappointed that the book ended at the 90% mark on my kindle, because I was at 87% Thursday night and could have easily finished but I wanted to save a robust portion to read the next day.

One thing I haven't seen brought up yet is Vicarian - how long until he goes rogue? I don't think he makes it through the winter. So I wonder what role that will play with Clara, et al.

I don't think Vicarian survives the series. I don't think his death will be noble or part of a change of heart either.

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I don't think Vicarian survives the series. I don't think his death will be noble or part of a change of heart either.

Oh, I don't think he'll go rogue for the good guys. I think he's too far away from the other spider priests to maintain loyalty to their specific mission.

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Dawson was a fantastic character too. I really feel this series has done a lot of excellent work with subversion where some seem to think it's more of a vanilla fantasy series, but it's all subtle and excellent. With his opposition to the farmers council, his racism (there is a reason Clara never believes he would have been working with the Timzinae - it's that he was too racist for that), and his complete confidence in the superiority of the noble class he would typically be an antagonist.

I agree, Dawson was great character.

I wonder if he was in parts modeled after General von Stauffenberg and other opponents to Hitler who came from the social background of old noble families: old nobility, disdain of the social upstart, racism but also the rejection of nazi ideology and their crimes all forming a fascinating mix of conflicted characters. I see a lot of these things in Dawson too and I wonder if it's only me who's seeing this? What does the author say?

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I agree, Dawson was great character.

I wonder if he was in parts modeled after General von Stauffenberg and other opponents to Hitler who came from the social background of old noble families: old nobility, disdain of the social upstart, racism but also the rejection of nazi ideology and their crimes all forming a fascinating mix of conflicted characters. I see a lot of these things in Dawson too and I wonder if it's only me who's seeing this? What does the author say?

I think I and someone else mentioned Stauffenberg in the old thread.

nitpick: unless Tom Cruise was lying, he was Colonel, not General.

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What does the author say?

Well, since you ask...

Dawson was originally based on Friedrich Reck-Malleczewen, a German royalist who hated the Nazis because they were of the wrong social class. The line that stuck in my head was talking about the nazis as "the revolution of the housepainters." He wrote a book that was published as The Diary of a Man in Despair. I was really taken with the idea of a character so far on the wrong side of history that he lapped himself.

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Well, since you ask...

Dawson was originally based on Friedrich Reck-Malleczewen, a German royalist who hated the Nazis because they were of the wrong social class. The line that stuck in my head was talking about the nazis as "the revolution of the housepainters." He wrote a book that was published as The Diary of a Man in Despair. I was really taken with the idea of a character so far on the wrong side of history that he lapped himself.

Fascinating. Always appreciate seeing behind the curtain.

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I've always thought that characters modelled on real people are the best, simply because it gives them a massive headstart in actually being and feeling human. That more than anything else is why this series is so great for me; the characters all feel very real (some more than others, but still).


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