"Osuna's bullring: Why Game of Thrones shouldn't film there"

[The Dragon Demands]

But he'll be pining, ser, he'll be pining for his chance at the ring.

[Ran]

I'm no knight.

And no, no bull pines to be repeatedly stabbed until dead. Sorry, that line of argument holds no water with me. There is no animal in the world that pines away at the thought of not being able to be forced into a ring to bleed, suffer, and die for the entertainment of humans.

FYI, fighting bulls tend to be 4 years old when killed. The very rare occasions where a bull is paroled due to its "performance" -- happens no more than a handful of times each year -- those bulls can live into their 20s. They do not pine away for lack of further opprtunities to be brutalized.

[breakfastfestival]

If someone has no regard for animal suffering, they deserve to suffer.

Wow. There is nothing to I need to say in response to that, it speaks for itself.

[The Dragon Demands]

(I've been being really sarcastic this entire time - I'd never even HEARD the argument that "the bulls will be left pining for their chance at the ring!" until Elyo and Lynda mentioned it during their most recent youtube video. I thought it was so ridiculous of an argument that I was sarcastically quoting it, as a "strawman" in the argument :) -- I mean as I type this, I'm saying it in the same comedic voice of Michael Palin saying that the Norwegian parrot is "pining for the fjords" in the Monty Python dead parrot sketch. )

[Ran]

DD,

Ahh, forgot that that reference was made.

[FalseKnight]

What a spectacularly ignorant thing to say. 'Someone disagrees with my viewpoint therefore deserves to go through the pain they are implicitly condoning'. I don't even disagree with your standpoint but you have lost any credibility in the argument with that statement.

Absolutely, I cannot and frankly don't want to understand the motivation behind that statement.

[Beric175]

I repeat what I said somewhere else: filming in a spot and endorsing what happens in that spot are not the same thing and to say otherwise is foolish. That's like saying we should not make a film like Blackfish in Seaworld because people might want to go there afer seeing it (which is not the responsibility of the showrunners). If you go there it's your own decision to support a cruel sport but the showrunners are not saying anything about their stance on bullfighting by filming in a location that looks new and is despite the bullfighting a beautiful building to look at. or it'd be like saying people should not film in Cuba because it brings in money for a dictatorship. How people react or where they go after watching a film or a tv show (I doubt people will even be able to recognize the real arena with all the CG that the show uses) is frankly on the viewers themselves. Just filming somewhere is not a sign of endorsing bullfighting and it's a strawman argument to suggest otherwise. The arena also happens to be used to depict a scene that firmly speaks against animal cruelty. It is once again a sign of people on this site assigning the most malicious and malintentioned motivations to the showrunners but I guess I should not be surprised about that, given the amount of whining and crying that happens with every single change from the book material. I'm sure if they abandoned the whole scene from the books in order to avoid getting tags of animal abusers from you guys you'd be moaning about that instead of their use of a location that happens to be a place where bullfighting takes place. If you had the choice between using a new location that does not require enormous amounts of money just to be made ready for filming and an old abandoned arena that would cost a fortune to renovate I'd say a lot of people would probably choose the new location that is already kept in order and is already ready for shooting because the show has a limited budget. Or you could lose the scene from the books altogether and not shoot there but then again purists would scream about that all day so I don't think one can win here.

[Ran]

Beric,

That's a very strong dose of stuff that you shouldn't post in the forum. Telling people they are "whiners" and "criers", misrepresenting people's positions flagrantly, and so on -- if you can't post without the aspersions towards posters here, don't post. Simple as that.

filming in a spot and endorsing what happens in that spot are not the same thing and to say otherwise is foolish.

No, since the production knows -- and uses the fact -- that it boosts tourism (and economies, thereby) to locations it shoots. It uses this fact to get favorable deals. These are concrete facts. The producers are aware that Osuna lobbied hard to get the production to film there because they hope to profit thereby as tourists come around... and those tourists may well be eagerly pressed to attend the bullfights and so on.

Pretend otherwise is simply refusing to look at the facts. Osuna's mayor, and the spokeperson's for the bullring, have all indicated how pleased they are with the publicity they're going to get.

If you go there it's your own decision to support a cruel sport but the showrunners are not saying anything about their stance on bullfighting by filming in a location that looks new and is despite the bullfighting a beautiful building to look at.

Wrong. They're saying, at bare minimum, that their views on bullfighting matter less than financial and production concerns. When businessmen make decisions that ignore ethical concerns in preference for profit, they are generally considered to be acting immorally. It's a shame, but that's what Benioff and Weiss have chosen at the time being.

Furthermore, it's not a beautiful building at all. It's extremely plain. A much more impressive bullring -- and one that is still maintained for its historic value while no longer actively used for bullfighting -- is the La Monumental in Barcelona.

Just filming somewhere is not a sign of endorsing bullfighting and it's a strawman argument to suggest otherwise.

It's a known fact that the production boosts tourism where it films. It's a known fact that this leads its filming to be highly sought by various locales. It's a known fact that Osuna's mayor and spokespersons for the bullring have spoken about the value which the publicity will bring to them.

Filming at the bullring will support bullfighting. Simple as that. Benioff and Weiss are capable of seeing the chain of cause and effect just as well as everyone else can. Hopefully they're willing to own their decisions rather than presenting weak arguments.

I'm sure if they abandoned the whole scene from the books in order to avoid getting tags of animal abusers

Not a single person here has said they should do that. What everyone opposed to filming there has suggested is that they find some alternative. This is a show able to create the illusion of hallways, courtyards, castles, and entire cities with its sets, digital composites, and CGI. There's nothing that prevents the show from creating a set and enhancing it digitally. And perhaps nothing to prevent it from finding some alternative venue such as finding a bullring no longer actually used for bullfighting.

Spartacus, with a third of the show's budget, managed to make several very impressive set-and-digital-composite arenas. It is entirely possible. Will it look as "authentic" as the real thing? Maybe not. But no bulls would be tortured for public entertainment on the grounds where filming took place, no tourist dollars would be be shoveled into promotion of the bullfights, and Benioff, Weiss, and those concerned at HBO could have a clear conscience, while their fans would appreciate their sensitivity to one of the blatant examples of deliberate, institutionalized animal cruelty in the Western hemisphere.

If you had the choice between using a new location that does not require enormous amounts of money just to be made ready for filming and an old abandoned arena that would cost a fortune to renovate

According to Javi, many bullrings are used for a lot of other things besides bullfighting. Presumably there are some which hold no bullfights at all but are still used for other public events that need no renovation efforts. I wonder how many there are besides La Monumental that could well suit the purpose.

But if the choice is, "Make the easy but immoral choice or the hard but moral one," I'd like to think David Benioff and Dan Weiss could see their way clear to choose the latter. It says much of someone's character if they prefer the former.

[WalkerOfWhite]

Am I the only person that thinks people ought to get off of their high horses?

I would imagine that I can count on one hand the number of people who are commenting on this that are actual pure vegans - those that use absolutely zero animal products.

and those that claim to be? Not bloody likely - good luck not using anything that uses animals or animal products in one way or another. and the fact is - every animal product comes at the expense of the animals - some worse than others, but none of them good.

and that high horse you're all sitting on? get off of it - that's supporting the subjugation of horses...

edit:

The fact is, unless you resort to using CGI for every location and avoid filming in actual physical places - you're filming in a place that has history, and not all of that history is good.

middle east? better not, that might be interpreted as supporting/alienating israel or iraq or syria or (what should be)palestine or

well, I think you get the point.

edit edit:

ROFLMFAO!! did someone say "immoral"??

omfg that's hysterical! the word is beyond meaningless in this context -

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You can take this many different ways. I'm Spanish. I live in Madrid, 200 meters away from La Plaza de Toros, able to hold 50,000 people.

-It's a fact that the bulls suffer. And it's a fact that, at the end, is really cruel.

-It's also a fact that those bulls have a better life than 99% of the animals that live in our planet. Not like the animals Burguer King, McDonalds, KFC use.

I personally believe that bullfights shouldn't be banned, but just modificated. I would like to see bullfights where the bull is not killed. Just the dancing around the animal, which, even if you don't like it, is beautiful.

And actually, there are probably more people living in Spain who are AGAINST bullfighting than in favor.

As we've been founded after Spain, there is a big culture of bullfighting here in Lima as well. I think it has been outlawed already, or there are plans on doing it, but I kinda agree with you that it shouldn't be banned but modified. It's definitely better than the "Yawar Fiesta", where a condor is tied on top of a Bull as a protest for Spanish invasion and yada yada.

I've recently seen a trend of satanize everything related to bullfighting, even people related to it, specially bullfighters. Funny thing is that many "intellectuals"/artists that are often reference for everything else are fans of it: Calamaro, Vargas Llosa, Sabina are examples. My father also liked it and I've been curious about it, I won't deny it. Isn't a Cantinflas movie soon to be premiered? He was a renowned bullfighter as well, and that doesn't make him a bad man either.

[DavosSeaworthy]

So what as FGM got to do with bull fighting?

Typical liberal lefty response, comparing humans to animals !!

Well, the arguement is about things that are cultural, so I used a cultural example. Typical righty responce, can't keep on topic and misses the point.

So let's use dog fighting to make this about animals, even though you made it about culture then shifted gears when you were challanged. Dog fighting used to be apart of American culture, and was promoted by the United Kennel Club and was only made illegal throughout the United States in the 1960's. Things change, and so will bullfighting, it will be banned within my lifetime, thankfully.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Argh, this should have been posted in the post above but whatever...

What I meant to say is that it's a bit distasteful all the disregard for other people's culture without actually knowing it. As Ingelheim said above, indeed, a lot of people is against BF in Spain and Latin America, BUT, BF is part of our culture, and in case of South America, is one of the reminiscences of the Spanish colonies that established here, hence, is part of our heritage and history. Whether we like it or not.

There are few people here who not only want BF abolished, they want the BF ring DEMOLISHED. Why? Didn't the Roman Coliseum also hosted inhuman cruelty in there? Should be demolished too as well? Our local bullring is beautiful (or was, at least), and I would gladly give money to restore it. History happened there. History that many don't like, but happened anyway. Reminds me of those who wanted removed from our anthem the part saying we were slaves because their ancestors weren't. Well, fuck them. Mine were and I'm proud of what they lived so I could have a better life.

Am I the only person that thinks people ought to get off of their high horses?

Nope.

[Ingelheim]

As I've said many time...tourists are free to go to Osuna...and free not do it.

It's not like they didn't know that the arena is a bullring. If they go to visit the arena, it means they don't have a problem with bullfighting. If they have a problem with it, they won't visit Osuna and they will visit another place.

The way many of you talk about tourism is kind of wrong. People won't visit Osuna without previously knowing some facts.

"Well, we are here. This is the place where they filmed that stuff with the dragon. So cool. We've travelled 5,000 kilometers to get here

What? This is a bullring? I didn't know!!"

This conversation won't happen.

[WalkerOfWhite]

As I've said many time...tourists are free to go to Osuna...and free not do it.

It's not like they didn't know that the arena is a bullring. If they go to visit the arena, it means they don't have a problem with bullfighting. If they have a problem with it, they won't visit Osuna and they will visit another place.

The way many of you talk about tourism is kind of wrong. People won't visit Osuna without previously knowing some facts.

You're wrong, of course.

I do not agree with bullfighting, but I would absolutely go see the ring. Would I go for a bullfight? of course not - I find the whole practice detestable - but the ring isn't the fight. Just as JonCon points out - visiting the colliseum doesn't mean you approve of feeding christians to the lions.

man - the horse gets higher and the self-appointed judges are descending upon us all...

[Ser Pounce FTW]

And please, for the love of R'hllor do not dignify PETA by making them part of the discussion. PETA is an American group and has no say in Spain. I'm still angry about their killing dogs and cats they supposedly "rescued" from shelters, and sabotaging dairy farmers' bulk tanks (making the milk undrinkable, and the farmers lose money).

Discussing the short comings of PETA and even stating that they're an example of American arrogance and hypocrisy is fine but saying they shouldn't be part of this discussion because they are not a Spanish organization is rather short sighted. Should the origin of a message or a cause really determine where and when it's appropriate for its philosophy to be discussed?

[Ingelheim]

You're wrong, of course.

I do not agree with bullfighting, but I would absolutely go see the ring. Would I go for a bullfight? of course not - I find the whole practice detestable - but the ring isn't the fight. Just as JonCon points out - visiting the colliseum doesn't mean you approve of feeding christians to the lions.

man - the horse gets higher and the self-appointed judges are descending upon us all...

Then that's kind of tricky. If you visit the place, it means you'll have to pay a few euros to do it. So, directly, you are giving money for the bullfights.

That's personally something I wouldn't do. But well, everyone is free to do what they want.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Discussing the short comings of PETA and even stating that they're an example of American arrogance and hypocrisy is fine but saying they shouldn't be part of this discussion because they are not a Spanish organization is rather short sighted. Should the origin of a message or a cause really determine where and when it's appropriate for its philosophy to be discussed?

Why is it always fine to put down Americans?

Myself, I do wish the show had chosen to film at a non active bullring, I do wish most of PETA didn't come off as stereotypical assholes, and I do wish to thank many for sharing insight into their cultural heritage. I'm not sure why, regardless of issue, it's always ok to put Americans down.

[WalkerOfWhite]

Then that's kind of tricky. If you visit the place, it means you'll have to pay a few euros to do it. So, directly, you are giving money for the bullfights.

That's personally something I wouldn't do. But well, everyone is free to do what they want.

Well, I imagine you don't leave your house often, since you're inevitably going to be spending money that is either directly or indirectly going to end up - sooner or later - supporting something you don't agree with.

As you say - everyone is free to do as they want, and if that means staying home and doing nothing, then that's okay too.

[Ingelheim]

As we've been founded after Spain, there is a big culture of bullfighting here in Lima as well. I think it has been outlawed already, or there are plans on doing it, but I kinda agree with you that it shouldn't be banned but modified. It's definitely better than the "Yawar Fiesta", where a condor is tied on top of a Bull as a protest for Spanish invasion and yada yada.

I've recently seen a trend of satanize everything related to bullfighting, even people related to it, specially bullfighters. Funny thing is that many "intellectuals"/artists that are often reference for everything else are fans of it: Calamaro, Vargas Llosa, Sabina are examples. My father also liked it and I've been curious about it, I won't deny it. Isn't a Cantinflas movie soon to be premiered? He was a renowned bullfighter as well, and that doesn't make him a bad man either.

I actually know people that hate Hemingway because he loved bullfighting and San Fermín.

I consider that people morons.

[Ran]

Am I the only person that thinks people ought to get off of their high horses?

I would imagine that I can count on one hand the number of people who are commenting on this that are actual pure vegans - those that use absolutely zero animal products.

Why do they have to?

Is the meat they eat the product of animals killed for entertainment?

and those that claim to be? Not bloody likely - good luck not using anything that uses animals or animal products in one way or another. and the fact is - every animal product comes at the expense of the animals - some worse than others, but none of them good.

I see why you're so familiar with high horses. Ride 'em, cowboy.

The fact is, unless you resort to using CGI for every location and avoid filming in actual physical places - you're filming in a place that has history, and not all of that history is good.

Bullfighting is not history. It is happening now. It has history, but it is not yet (alas) history.

Filming at historic locations can be edifying, even if (maybe especially if) what happened at those locations was absolutely horrifying. But that is because what happened at those locations no longer happens and is understood as tragic within its context, part of the long chain of human folly. Bullfighting in Spain is not seen very much out of its traditional context, and is celebrated as such. Filming in a bullring and paying for the privilege, and providing other support as a result of its use simply serves to perpetuate it.

Bullfighting is contemporary. It's happening now. What people do now will affect how long that's to be the case.

Ser Pounce,

Also, FWIW, PETA has a branch in Spain, and has carried out various lobbying and protest activities in Spain.

More importantly, it was brought up in connection to the fact that cast members -- Dinklage, Headey -- have been public supporters of PETA in the past.