Heresy 133 The Weirwoods

[Black Crow]

Yes - you're right about that, of course. And we've touched on the Tree Song before (Oak, Ash, and Thorn, and Puck of Pook's Hill), as well as the unique presence of those three trees in the Winterfell godswood. Long ago I did consider the possibility that these trees might echo that traditional trio - but I quickly ruled it out because (in my head, at least) the Chestnut and the Hawthorn were two very different trees. But perhaps I was overthinking that. One of the defining characteristics of the Chestnut is the spiny / thorny burr that contains its fruit... so maybe Martin's just sort of, concealed that reference by substituting in the Chestnut for the "Thorn." I must say, there'd be a bit of relief in simplifying it that way. That chestnut's been driving me nuts. ;)

:agree:

I think that's the simplest way of linking it especially as its also worth noting that horse chestnuts do have a very bitter taste - hence the Oak, the Ash and the bitter Thorn..

[Arya Havinfun]

Fabulous compendium, Snowfyre Chorus!!! You have dazzled me! So much to digest and ponder, so for now I'll just respond to a tiny piece.

This is probably as good a time as any to bring up another issue that is worth mentioning (and I must give credit here to JNR, who pushed me in a PM to consider this issue more directly). It may seem so obvious as to be trivial, but by the same token it is so fundamental that we really must point out the fact that there are no weirwoods in Essos. JNR's question to me was: "why haven't they spread to Essos" like we'd expect any natural tree to do? And of course, my response was to point out that they aren't just natural plants... they're fantastical plants. But it does raise some interesting questions having to do with weirwood propagation, origins, and nature.

I‘m not entirely sure there aren’t weirwoods in Essos. We’ve seen a seemingly related species growing around the House of the Undying, with black bark and dark purple leaves. This tree is the source of the psychedelic/magical beverage “shade of the evening” imbibed by warlocks and Euron Greyjoy. There’s also this reference in the wiki:

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Quote:

Kingdom of the Ifequevron

(Redirected from Ifequevron)

The Kingdom of the Ifequevron^[1] or Kingdoms of the Ifeqevron^[2] is a forested region of northern Essos along the Shivering Sea.^[2]Omber and the Bay of Tusks are to the west, while the Kingdom of Sarnor is to the southwest. East of the forest are the Realm of Jhogwin and the Krazaaj Zasqa. The Dothraki sea and Vaes Dothrak are to the south; a river from the Womb of the World by Vaes Dothrak runs through the kingdom to the Shivering Sea. East of the forest are the Ibbenese city New Ibbish and the ruins of Vaes Aresak (Ibbish).^[2]

History

Ifequevron, meaning "wood walkers", is the Dothraki language name for a people who once lived in the forest. Located on a small western peninsula, Vaes Leisi is a ruined settlement of carved trees and haunted grottoes.^[1]

Behind the Scenes

The Kingdom of the Ifequevron has not yet been mentioned in the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, only appearing in The Lands of Ice and Fire and A World of Ice and Fire.

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So my guess is that the Essosi variety of the CotF are thought to be extinct, and the black & purple trees in the HotU garden are a remnant of what used to be their version of weirwoods. Whether the Undying are/were the only ones "inhabiting" these trees recently, or even if they are/were aware of the way the weirnet works, I cannot say. But those trees are too freaky to leave out of the equation.

ETA: HotU garden

[Hrafntýr]

The trees see all and save the things witnessed as memories. And the greenseer can see whatever the tree saw, but I think the cutting of faces enables the greenseer to see through the tree. That may be why the wildlings cut faces in some trees because they wanted the "gods" to see through those trees. Even if the faces aren't cut but rather the faces of the greenseers melded with the tree, it would be the same thing. The tree sees all even without a greenseer.

Well, that's certainly a viable hypothesis! But I'm not sure that a weirwood without a face can see, or accumulate visual memories for a later greenseer to access. That's what I was trying to sort through. In Jainism different species are classified according to the number of senses they have; typically, plants are considered to have one sense, that of touch. I guess I wonder if a greenseer entered into a tree without a face if he or she would only feel the wind in leaves, the vibrations in the earth, etc. It could be that weirwoods as a magical species are endowed with other perceptual abilities, but given that we think that what a green seer does is akin to skinchanging the tree, and that the skinchanger would be limited by the abilities of the "host," I'm not sure that skinchanging an eyeless being would allow you to see.

[LynnS]

:agree:

I think that's the simplest way of linking it especially as its also worth noting that chestnuts do have a bitter taste if not roasted - hence the Oak, the Ash and the bitter Thorn..

Now I get it. Sometimes, I just have to laugh at myself. And putting stone images of the green men in my garden; did not stop the chipmunks from stealing my tomatos.

[Hrafntýr]

Nothing stops chipmunks from stealing tomatoes.

[LynnS]

Fabulous compendium, Snowfyre Chorus!!! You have dazzled me! So much to digest and ponder, so for now I'll just respond to a tiny piece.

I‘m not entirely sure there aren’t weirwoods in Essos. We’ve seen a seemingly related species growing around the House of the Undying, with black bark and dark purple leaves. This tree is the source of the psychedelic/magical beverage “shade of the evening” imbibed by warlocks and Euron Greyjoy. There’s also this reference in the wiki:

*********************************************************************

Quote:

Kingdom of the Ifequevron

(Redirected from Ifequevron)

The Kingdom of the Ifequevron^[1] or Kingdoms of the Ifeqevron^[2] is a forested region of northern Essos along the Shivering Sea.^[2]Omber and the Bay of Tusks are to the west, while the Kingdom of Sarnor is to the southwest. East of the forest are the Realm of Jhogwin and the Krazaaj Zasqa. The Dothraki sea and Vaes Dothrak are to the south; a river from the Womb of the World by Vaes Dothrak runs through the kingdom to the Shivering Sea. East of the forest are the Ibbenese city New Ibbish and the ruins of Vaes Aresak (Ibbish).^[2]

History

Ifequevron, meaning "wood walkers", is the Dothraki language name for a people who once lived in the forest. Located on a small western peninsula, Vaes Leisi is a ruined settlement of carved trees and haunted grottoes.^[1]

Behind the Scenes

The Kingdom of the Ifequevron has not yet been mentioned in the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, only appearing in The Lands of Ice and Fire and A World of Ice and Fire.

*************************************************************

So my guess is that the Essosi variety of the CotF are thought to be extinct, and the black & purple trees in the HotU garden are a remnant of what used to be their version of weirwoods. Whether the Undying are/were the only ones "inhabiting" these trees recently, or even if they are/were aware of the way the weirnet works, I cannot say. But those trees are too freaky to leave out of the equation.

ETA: HotU garden

OHHHH! Nice find! I suspect that the shade of the evening tree and the weirwood are used in all those black and white doors, we keep running across.

[Arya Havinfun]

Well, that's certainly a viable hypothesis! But I'm not sure that a weirwood without a face can see, or accumulate visual memories for a later greenseer to access. That's what I was trying to sort through. In Jainism different species are classified according to the number of senses they have; typically, plants are considered to have one sense, that of touch. I guess I wonder if a greenseer entered into a tree without a face if he or she would only feel the wind in leaves, the vibrations in the earth, etc. It could be that weirwoods as a magical species are endowed with other perceptual abilities, but given that we think that what a green seer does is akin to skinchanging the tree, and that the skinchanger would be limited by the abilities of the "host," I'm not sure that skinchanging an eyeless being would allow you to see.

We can't be sure unless GRRM tells us, but I suspect that the creation of eyes and a face may well come after the tree is accessed/inhabited by a green seer. I think this because the green seer doesn't have to be near the tree to use it, and the trees are all connected in the weirnet.

We also do know that wargs and their familiars take on one another's characteristics, so faces may grow on the tree trunk as the green seer becomes more deeply rooted. Maybe this requires that the roots be physically touching underground somehow, at least when magic is at a low ebb. But when magic is on the upswing, I bet there's ample WIFI coverage, so that an actual physical connection would perhaps be preferred, but optional.

Perhaps this is the reason no weirwood took root in the Eyrie's godswood, because there wasn't a good enough WIFI connection available to overcome the lack of roots contact. In the alternative, maybe the failed Eyrie saplings died for lack of blood to nourish them. Now that Bronn killed Ser Vardis, that may change, and we may see something new there in the spring.

[Toccs]

And Toccs - thanks for that reminder. Honestly, by the time I got to that last bit (listing the weirwood weapons) I was a bit worn out. I recall thinking about the Raven's Teeth late in the game, but didn't have the reference handy and was too tired to go find it. I'm thinking it might be in The Sworn Sword?

I can understand how you would be worn out by then, that was an awesome essay. The Raven's Teeth are featured in the Sworn Sword and the Mystery Knight both.

[Morrigan's Raven]

"It may seem so obvious as to be trivial, but by the same token it is so fundamental that we really must point out the fact thatthere are no weirwoods in Essos."

I wonder if the ebony trees have magical properties corresponding to the weirwoods. We get ebony paired a lot,( offhand, the Moon door & throne of Arryns; doors and chairs in hall of B & W; the creepy purple heart place) but no ebony trees anywhere yet.

Edit: Is Arya H's tree the source of "ebony"?

Hafantyr, Thanks for pointing out the dream nature of tje Bran-tree speaking to Jon. I've somehow missed that! However, we seem to get background clues from dreams, like Ned's fever dream. Maybe GRRM is giving us a clue there?

I'm sure you can see where I'm heading..."

Yes, Black Crow, I think we are going in the same direction...

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The trees see all and save the things witnessed as memories. And the greenseer can see whatever the tree saw, but I think the cutting of faces enables the greenseer to see through the tree. That may be why the wildlings cut faces in some trees because they wanted the "gods" to see through those trees. Even if the faces aren't cut but rather the faces of the greenseers melded with the tree, it would be the same thing. The tree sees all even without a greenseer.

I think you are correct that the trees always see. Like the young Weirwood in Bran's vision, they do not need the face to know what is going on. Maybe it was the arrival of men that caused the faces to appear in the trees. Whether carved or grown or both.

Well, that's certainly a viable hypothesis! But I'm not sure that a weirwood without a face can see, or accumulate visual memories for a later greenseer to access. That's what I was trying to sort through. In Jainism different species are classified according to the number of senses they have; typically, plants are considered to have one sense, that of touch. I guess I wonder if a greenseer entered into a tree without a face if he or she would only feel the wind in leaves, the vibrations in the earth, etc. It could be that weirwoods as a magical species are endowed with other perceptual abilities, but given that we think that what a green seer does is akin to skinchanging the tree, and that the skinchanger would be limited by the abilities of the "host," I'm not sure that skinchanging an eyeless being would allow you to see.

Does the weirwood at Raventree Hall have a face? I cannot recall and Chorus' list of quotes does not mention a face. Bloodraven obviously peers through this one yet I am not sure it has eyes.

The weirwoods are linked with the third eye, but are these trees only conduits? In the centennial essays, we discussed the trees, ravens, third eye etc., and I thought the 3 eyed crow is the visualization of the third eye. The tree is the conduit which allows the energy to flow.

[Arya Havinfun]

"It may seem so obvious as to be trivial, but by the same token it is so fundamental that we really must point out the fact thatthere are no weirwoods in Essos."

I wonder if the ebony trees have magical properties corresponding to the weirwoods. We get ebony paired a lot,( offhand, the Moon door & throne of Arryns; doors and chairs in hall of B & W; the creepy purple heart place) but no ebony trees anywhere yet.

Edit: Is Arya H's tree the source of "ebony"?

In RL, ebony is a dark wood sourced from several different species of trees, so maybe in Terros, the same might be true.

The 'shade of the evening' trees are too few in number to sustain any sort of commercial trade without being quickly annihilated/extinguished.

[Arya Havinfun]

In followup to my previous post about the "shade of the evening" trees as a likely candidate for being the Essosi version of weirwood trees:

It occurs to me that the Westerosi CotF had a pretty good gig before the First Men showed up, migrating in from Essos into Westeros. If the First Men and other Essosi human groups were the reason for the apparent demise of the Ifequevron [Essosi tribe of CotF], it gives more gravitas to the idea that maybe the CotF were right to break the Arm of Dorne with the Hammer of the Waters to try and keep those destructive human invaders out of Westeros. Of course, they didn't do it fast enough, or completely enough, and probably the effort was doomed to failure anyway as the humans became more expert at traveling in boats. They weren't over-reacting, they were just very unlucky.

I'm just wondering if there might still be some remnant of the Ifequevron still left underneath the ruins of their old Ibbish territory, hiding under the sidhe hills there like they do in the Westerosi North, and whether there are any wild "shade of the evening" trees still left in their forest. Essos seems to be a continent with much less forested land than Westeros, probably due to lower rainfall in Essos, I guess. And I wonder if there's any communication between the continents through the surviving trees.

[addicted to snow]

This is a bit of an anomoly since it's the only occurance of faces carved in trees that are not weirwood. I think it's evidence that human sacrifice still occurs; a drunk, an old man and a strong man (who perhaps didn't want to be sacrificed). The trees are given the countenance of their sacrifice and selected for their physical similarity to the sacrifice. It's not clear if the faces were carved in the tree when Mole's Town was first sacked or when the free folk took up residence afterward. I suspect the sacrifices were original residents of Mole's Town, kneelers in other words. So it seems that in the absence of weirwoods; substitutes will do out of necessity.

I think that it's a bit more likely that the faces were simply carved into these trees...

If your theory was correct, then ever tree in Westeros that someone had died before would have a face… & we have seen no evidence that this is the case...

[TheButcherCrow]

In followup to my previous post about the "shade of the evening" trees as a likely candidate for being the Essosi version of weirwood trees:

It occurs to me that the Westerosi CotF had a pretty good gig before the First Men showed up, migrating in from Essos into Westeros. If the First Men and other Essosi human groups were the reason for the apparent demise of the Ifequevron [Essosi tribe of CotF], it gives more gravitas to the idea that maybe the CotF were right to break the Arm of Dorne with the Hammer of the Waters to try and keep those destructive human invaders out of Westeros. Of course, they didn't do it fast enough, or completely enough, and probably the effort was doomed to failure anyway as the humans became more expert at traveling in boats. They weren't over-reacting, they were just very unlucky.

I'm just wondering if there might still be some remnant of the Ifequevron still left underneath the ruins of their old Ibbish territory, hiding under the sidhe hills there like they do in the Westerosi North, and whether there are any wild "shade of the evening" trees still left in their forest. Essos seems to be a continent with much less forested land than Westeros, probably due to lower rainfall in Essos, I guess. And I wonder if there's any communication between the continents through the surviving trees.

Interesting thought. The revelation that a race similar to the singers once lived in Essos was really intriguing. I wonder if perhaps the Essosi singers (wonder what song they sing ?) had something to do with the doom and the establishment of a certain monochromatic religious establishment ?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Fabulous compendium, Snowfyre Chorus!!! You have dazzled me! So much to digest and ponder, so for now I'll just respond to a tiny piece.

I‘m not entirely sure there aren’t weirwoods in Essos. We’ve seen a seemingly related species growing around the House of the Undying, with black bark and dark purple leaves. This tree is the source of the psychedelic/magical beverage “shade of the evening” imbibed by warlocks and Euron Greyjoy. There’s also this reference in the wiki:

*********************************************************************

The Kingdom of the Ifequevron^[1] or Kingdoms of the Ifeqevron^[2] ...

...So my guess is that the Essosi variety of the CotF are thought to be extinct, and the black & purple trees in the HotU garden are a remnant of what used to be their version of weirwoods. Whether the Undying are/were the only ones "inhabiting" these trees recently, or even if they are/were aware of the way the weirnet works, I cannot say. But those trees are too freaky to leave out of the equation.

Fascinating stuff there, Arya Havinfun - and I'm glad you shared it. I do not have a copy of the Lands maps, so was not familiar with that material.

"It may seem so obvious as to be trivial, but by the same token it is so fundamental that we really must point out the fact thatthere are no weirwoods in Essos."

I wonder if the ebony trees have magical properties corresponding to the weirwoods. We get ebony paired a lot,( offhand, the Moon door & throne of Arryns; doors and chairs in hall of B & W; the creepy purple heart place) but no ebony trees anywhere yet.

Edit: Is Arya H's tree the source of "ebony"?

In RL, ebony is a dark wood sourced from several different species of trees, so maybe in Terros, the same might be true.

The 'shade of the evening' trees are too few in number to sustain any sort of commercial trade without being quickly annihilated/extinguished.

Regarding ebony...it is certainly hinted that this is the Essosi tree to counterbalance the weirwood. Those who look into it will find that edible fruits of the Diospyros (ebony) genus include the date-plum (diospyros lotus) and the persimmon - and both "ebony" and "persimmon" are names generally used for the trees. So, not only do we see the weirwood/ebony doors at Tobho Mott's, at the House of Black and White, and at the House of the Undying... but we should also pay attention to the persimmon tree over Dany's pool in Meereen, under which Quaithe appears to reiterate her warnings and prophecies. And it may be noteworthy that Dany herself, who uses an "ebon bench" for her throne in Meereen, also seems to enjoy eating dates.

(The generic name "Diospyros," by the way, translates to something like "divine fruit." But it has also been mistranslated as "fire of the gods" or "divine fire.")

[Toccs]

Interesting thought. The revelation that a race similar to the singers once lived in Essos was really intriguing. I wonder if perhaps the Essosi singers (wonder what song they sing ?) had something to do with the doom and the establishment of a certain monochromatic religious establishment ?

Kingdom of the Ifeqevron :

The great forest of northern Essos, stretching from the Bay of Tusks and the Krazaaj Zasja mountains. The Dothraki have named it after the vanished people that once lived there, whom they called the "wood walkers". The Ifeqevron left behind one settlement in the forest, a place of carved trees and haunted grottoes now called Vaes Leisi - or "City of Ghosts" - by the Dothraki.

I'm not sure that I would call that confirmation that a race of CotF were living in Essos. Especially since the worldbook and the app are written by Maesters who would know about the Children. The comparisson seems so obvious and yet it is never made.

[Phillip Frye]

My impression of the weirwood is that they propagate not only through their seed nuts but through their root system. As Bran mentions they look like giant worms or snakes and as Alleras mentions; you cut a worm in half and you get another worm. I suspect that the larger part of the organism is underground and that some groves are connected by their roots. This would indeed make them giants in another sense and explains how Bran can travel from tree to tree using the wierwood web.

That would give it many similarities (and dissimilarities) to populus tremuloides, popularly known as the Quaking Aspen, which rarely sprouts seedlings, but commonly spreads as part of a root colony. They also have white bark, but grow extremely quickly, instead of very slowly. In fact, their reproductive strategy is to die out after fifty years, have a fire, and then send up new seedlings from the underground roots to recreate the grove.

They also grow at high elevations in . . . New Mexico.

[redrose]

Great OP Snowfyre Chorus.

In real life we have Deciduous and evergreen trees. In planetos we have a new magical species of tree, the everlasting tree. As a magical tree I think that in order to establish the tree it requires blood sacrifice. I have little to no evidence for this except that we know that there is a price to be paid for anything magical in planetos. We have seen very few sapling Weirwoods throughout the story which I think may be a result of the dying (get it) art of blood sacrifice. It seems to me to be a bit of a catch 22 situation as we are reminded throughout the books of the importance of knowledge, the north remembers, the royces house words we remember, the reeds stating that they remember much of what Winterfell has forgotten and the wildlings reminding anybody that will listen that they remember things the kneelers have forgotten. And yet here we are with the best means of remembering everything through a magical Weirwood and the only person who can pass on this information is stuck in a hollow in the middle of nowhere. Bran has already shown signs that he maybe able to communicate through the Weirwoods and I'm just thinking what may happen to his " abilities" if we are to see somebody sacrificed in front of a Weirwood tree?

[Phillip Frye]

I think that's the simplest way of linking it especially as its also worth noting that horse chestnuts do have a very bitter taste - hence the Oak, the Ash and the bitter Thorn..

The thing to do with horse chestnuts is to put them in your cheeks, so you won't be able to clearly explain to questioners why you have a pair of rubber balls in your hands.

You should also practice for surviving a plane crash by crashing your plane repeatedly, so when you want to crash your plane, you do it successfully near a neutral country.

[Phillip Frye]

I think you are correct that the trees always see. Like the young Weirwood in Bran's vision, they do not need the face to know what is going on. Maybe it was the arrival of men that caused the faces to appear in the trees. Whether carved or grown or both.

Just so. You don't need a face to see through a tree. In fact, Bloodraven promises Bran that he will be able to see beyond the trees soon enough.