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High Septon = Howland Reed 3.0


willofDorne

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few things i like to add


Q: Howland was confirmed by GRRM to be in his 30's, yet the High Septon has grey hair, a lined face, and is described as an "old man" both by Cersei and in the Appendix of AFoC and ADwD.

we know of at least 2 people who look much older than they are

1. theon after he got tortured by ramsay

2. lancel after he recovers from his wounds taken in the battle of the blackwater. his hair is white and brittle in ASoS (not sure how old he is exactly at that point,but not older than 18!)

HR might well be injured at the ToJ when saving ned's life and never fully recovered (or possibly later of course as it has been a while since someone saw him) or he might have suffered from a disease like jojen.

as to the appendix:

no description in the appendix differs from the POVs perception of a character (so it must say the same as cersei's chapters)


Q: How does Howland learn the Faith so quickly?

is there any textual evidence of deep knowledge about the faith? i've asked for this in one of the other threads, but nobody presented any.

Like I said in the previous thread, I would dearly love for this thread to be true. However, it is likely untrue, for the following reasons:

1. Howland Reed has no reason to pretend to be a septon in order to fuck shit up. He is fucking shit up for the ironmen perfectly well, as it happens.

the crannogmen do not need him to fight the ironborn. as he never was a good fighter he probably couldn't add much to their strength and guerrilla warfare does not need a central command.

2. Howland Reed is no septon. In fact, if what little we know of of him is true, he is deeply into the religion of the Children of the Forest/Old Gods/Green Men, which has ACTUAL MYSTICAL POWERS, rather than the Fot7.

theory says he PRETENDS to be a septon.

3. Howland Reed is sworn and duty-bound to the Starks. He takes this very seriously. Therefore, his first objective will be to a. protect remaining Starks and b. restore Starks to the lordship of the North.

a. he sends his kids to help bran, if he would be better suited to do this himself why should he have sent them instead? arya and sansa are missing and out of reach for him. if he had this plan for a longer time saving sansa might have been a part of his plan.

b. as long as the lannisters are in charge they wouldn't let that happen without a fight.

Against this, we have:

1. Howland Reed is a BAMF. We don't know what went down at the ToJ, but somehow, Howland Reed prevented the BEST KNIGHT IN THE WORLD from killing Ned. That means that Howland is a BAMF, no matter how you slice it. He can do stuff.

none of us know what happened, he could just have thrown dirt into his face giving ned the chance to deliver a fatal blow. i'm sure grrm wanted to fool us here as he emphasizes dayne's fighting skills and so we automatically assume HR must have done something badass when we hear about it. we might be mislead by our own expectations and have drawn the wrong conclusions here.

2. He can do the hoodoo. Every reference to Howland suggests that he has magic powers.

not sure what you mean exactly, but even if he has, why would that speak against the theory

3. Only Howland knows what happened at the ToJ, and he hasn't shown up yet. (cough cough) ahem (cough cough) Howland, we need some exposiition here please?

???

Conclusion: The story needs Howland Reed, and soon. The High Sparrow being Howland Reed would be delicious in many ways, but doesn't seem to work out Sadly :( I'd rather it did. But Howland is too young, too foreign, and too focused on other shit to be the High Sparrow.

for age see above. too foreign? if you mean the religion see above, if anything else explain please. too focused? on what? nobody mentioned what he is doing right now.


But as much as I want this to be true - it is not ...

Reason:

The producer of the tv show most likley know if the HS is HR and they choose to cast Jonahtan Pryce for it .... and this guy is for shure not HR - or I hope he is not! (Only option would be a glare spell but I dont think so)

why exactly wouldn't they cast him? and which kind of actor would they cast instead?

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A little nice touch I have thought of which may be going to far in but English Gcse has taught me the more bs it sounds the better. Anyway as you have said many of the sparrows carry axes no if Howland REED is the high septon then combining REEDS and AXES make fasces, the symbol of power in ancient Rome. The axe symbolises the power over life (usually a consul for the most part who commanded armies in republic Rome) in the field. The reed symbolises his control over those around him for their punishment. We have already seen punishment been given out, will we see death?

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The thing aboug ghis theory is at face value I dont believe it, once I read thru it it seems so probable I just don't know if anyone else feels like that? The one qiestion I have what happens during the reveal? The faith is shall we say crazy religious? Now what woukd the footsoldiers do if they find out the high sparrow is an old god wprshipping lord and his closest advisors are mormonts theo wull ect u know what I mean. I guess after howland leave the faith all hell breaks loose in kl is that what he wants? U guys follow what im asking?

I didnt do a good job of explaining myswlf I ment say it becomes known that hr is the hs what happens? Id assume all hell breaks loose is rhat part of their plan to dirther fuxk up kingslanding? If the teory is true he has to have an end game he isnt gonna stay hs for longer than he has to. What happens when he has tona of pissed off southerners after him? Does he just retreat to the neck and let the swamp do what it does and swallow up the knights? We do have foreshadowing for this to happen so I guess yeah its possible someone help me out

kinda crackpot after he has shown cersei to be the crazy brofucking, king killing woman that she his, her children would be illegitimate and if margery was deemed innoncent then she would no longer be forced to be married to tommen, two suitors could arise after this aegon, or jon. we suspect that HR knows the true identity of jon's parents and if they are R+L jon could be a legitimate potential consort if he is alive that is

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The producer of the tv show most likley know if the HS is HR and they choose to cast Jonahtan Pryce for it .... and this guy is for shure not HR - or I hope he is not! (

I don't watch the show, but most of the actors they've chosen do not match the characters' looks or ages in the books, as well as changing a chunk of narrative to be televisual.

Jonathan Pryce is a great actor. I'm not so worried about his age as the show has aged every character up, as far as I can see. However, he is also 6 feet tall so he's way too tall for the High Sparrow. He's really a better fit age- and height-wise for Septon Meribald.

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Howland Reed worships the Old Gods.

True. And yet I don't have the huge problem with this as some others do. As has already been already said, Howland Reed is a lord and probably educated to a degree (although it is not known in canon to what degree).

If he's been educated as other lords are, I have no doubt he learnt of other religions (as the Stark children did) and political history.

Even if he's not educated to the level we see with various lordly families in the series, as long as he can read, he is still better educated than smallfolk, and he can learn about the faith of the Seven and political history if it suits his purposes.

It is also worth remembering that he is posing as an itinerant septon - a hedge priest, if you will. Historically, hedge priests (such as Lollards) didn't have parishes (septs) or even established orders, and some were unable to read Latin (as was usual for priests then) or could even uneducated all together. Theirs could be a 'rough' unlettered version of theology, aimed at the uneducated of the countryside. I think a weaver of words would be capable of this type and level of imposture.

This imposture is not a holy calling but is a means to an end, a way of building an army (even a guerilla one) within King's Landing itself. There is plenty of precedent for peasants being roused to revolt by charismatic men, especially by religious men - see John Ball (a Lollard priest) and the Peasants' Revolt. The aftermath of war is the very time for charismatic leaders to gain followers from amongst the dispossessed. The followers themselves may not even be completely motivated by religious fervour, but by many other emotions that can be manipulated, such as anger, revenge, or a desire for justice or reform, etc.

There have been imposter priests in history, just as there have been pretenders to the throne.

This is all very true but how many of those itinerant priests got to be the head of the centralised organised religion? How many of them were able to clamber or leapfrog over the already established heirarchical structure?

I think you'll find the answer is none.

The Lollards were always outsiders and they remained outsiders, they were designated heretics in the end and persecuted and stamped out. Same goes for the Cathars, Albigensians and others of their ilk. Rabble-raising, causing internal strife, taking a few towns is one thing getting to the top of the official pre-existing organisation is quite another. Basically, it doesn't happen.

Even Martin Luther was only successful because he actively created another branch of the same religion.

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@Clariana





This is all very true but how many of those itinerant priests got to be the head of the centralised organised religion? How many of them were able to clamber or leapfrog over the already established heirarchical structure?




The High Sparrow didn't "clamber or leapfrog over the already established heirachical structure". It was a coup by force of arms. That's a crucial point.




And the coup itself demonstrates that this particular 'septon' and his followers have no respect for the established religion's hierarchy, which is note-worthy.





Rabble-raising, causing internal strife, taking a few towns is one thing getting to the top of the official pre-existing organisation is quite another. Basically, it doesn't happen.





Correct, except that in ASOIAF, that is exactly what has happened (so I'm not sure how your point assists you to undermine this particular theory).



Our theory is that HS is not a genuine itinerant priest. His is not a holy calling - and it is completely appropriate he would therefore use a coup to grab the only power that has the potential (and known history of the ability to) undermine the throne with a mixture of mob and religion.



(Just as an interesting side note: there is historical precedent for a non-priest taking the highest religious office in the land and thereby "leapfrogging" over the established heirarchy (albeit by the King's political appointment). Thomas Becket, already the Chancellor, was neither a monk nor an ordained priest when the King nominated him as Archbishop of Canterbury, and was only ordained as a priest one day before being consecrated as Archbishop.)

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Well done OP for posting another thread, also Pobeb for fleshing out many of the inclusions for this, theory, as I have said I support the basic premise but perhaps not all of the links, however I do admire the work of the people who have helped put this together & their hard work to putting this out there.






I have a lot of time for this theory (although maybe not all of the detail discussed). Indeed, I hoped to discuss it when I joined this forum.



I started to think something was suspicious about the High Septon when I read about the faces in the audience chamber - the similarity with the weirwood faces struck me immediately.



However, I am not claiming that this theory is definitely right. The High Sparrow may indeed be an unknown holy man raised to power by the masses by a combination of circumstances. But I also think that it is entirely possible that this man may be Howland Reed.



I've not made any detailed posts on here before, so please bear with me as I collect my musings for a few points in support of the OP.



Howland Reed can 'weave words'.



Knowing (as we do from the story of the KotLT) that Howland Reed is not a fighter, I have often wondered how he saved Ned from Arthur Dayne. Was it guerilla tactics, or did he 'weave words' in some way to save Ned? I wonder what 'weave words' means.



Does this mean he can bewitch with his words or that he is a very charismatic orator or a persuasive man? I don't know, but I think it will prove important. However, being charismatic would certainly help to gain followers along the way, to persuade them and maybe even manipulate them into following him.



Whether it's religion or politics, charismatic leaders can and do obtain extraordinary loyalty from their followers.





Howland Reed worships the Old Gods.



True. And yet I don't have the huge problem with this as some others do. As has already been already said, Howland Reed is a lord and probably educated to a degree (although it is not known in canon to what degree).



If he's been educated as other lords are, I have no doubt he learnt of other religions (as the Stark children did) and political history.



Even if he's not educated to the level we see with various lordly families in the series, as long as he can read, he is still better educated than smallfolk, and he can learn about the faith of the Seven and political history if it suits his purposes.



It is also worth remembering that he is posing as an itinerant septon - a hedge priest, if you will. Historically, hedge priests (such as Lollards) didn't have parishes (septs) or even established orders, and some were unable to read Latin (as was usual for priests then) or could even uneducated all together. Theirs could be a 'rough' unlettered version of theology, aimed at the uneducated of the countryside. I think a weaver of words would be capable of this type and level of imposture.



This imposture is not a holy calling but is a means to an end, a way of building an army (even a guerilla one) within King's Landing itself. There is plenty of precedent for peasants being roused to revolt by charismatic men, especially by religious men - see John Ball (a Lollard priest) and the Peasants' Revolt. The aftermath of war is the very time for charismatic leaders to gain followers from amongst the dispossessed. The followers themselves may not even be completely motivated by religious fervour, but by many other emotions that can be manipulated, such as anger, revenge, or a desire for justice or reform, etc.



There have been imposter priests in history, just as there have been pretenders to the throne.




On the basis that Howland Reed is the High Sparrow, how did he contrive to be High Septon from the outset?



My view is: he didn't.



There were already vagabonds and dispossessed in the countryside and vagrants making their way to King's Landing following the various battles and their violent aftermaths. I suspect he could have been informed of this and set out with a number of crannogmen and Northmen to King's Landing under the disguise of an itinerant septon and followers as a way of blending in, in order to infiltrate King's Landing. My feeling at this stage was that he picked up followers along the way from amongst these disaffected and the dispossessed.



As their journey progressed, and his following increased exponentially, his plans probably developed with this, and he took advantage of the opportunities presenting themselves to him. What may have started out as an infiltration mission may have developed by pure opportunity into an overt power grab for high office.





this is a really good post, very balanced POV with lots of interesting information.

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I don't watch the show, but most of the actors they've chosen do not match the characters' looks or ages in the books, as well as changing a chunk of narrative to be televisual.

Jonathan Pryce is a great actor. I'm not so worried about his age as the show has aged every character up, as far as I can see. However, he is also 6 feet tall so he's way too tall for the High Sparrow. He's really a better fit age- and height-wise for Septon Meribald.

This is perhaps the first thing anyone has said that actually throws a real roadblock to this theory, If this is true (& I have no reason to doubt you but I haven't checked) I believe the age is open for conjecture & given that HR spent an entire Winter on the Isle of Faces with the Green Men he could be older, however the height is an issue. I know the show combines some characters on occasion but I can't see how that would work so it does give me pause.

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This is perhaps the first thing anyone has said that actually throws a real roadblock to this theory, If this is true (& I have no reason to doubt you but I haven't checked) I believe the age is open for conjecture & given that HR spent an entire Winter on the Isle of Faces with the Green Men he could be older, however the height is an issue. I know the show combines some characters on occasion but I can't see how that would work so it does give me pause.

Hi, sorry if I'm being a little dense - what do you mean?

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The show has altered the appearances of many of the book characters to fit it's needs. Show Jojen isn't short and Meera didn't seem to be that much shorter than Osha. I don't think casting for the show is foreshadowing what GRRM's continuing story will be based on. If an actor is qualified to play a particular part, who's to say that make-up can't change their appearance to suit the story. Dany's blond, Emilia's a brunette. Sandor has a burned face, Rory doesn't.


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if the theory is correct, what kind of actor should they cast? i don't think they could find someone in his 30s who looks like an old man and casting a young man and make him older wouldn't make sense. if you have a character who looks old then you cast an old actor, no matter how old the character is supposed to be.



and why should the height of the actor be an issue? he cannot play HR because HR is described as being small in the books, but he can play the HS who is also described as being small in the books? that argument doesn't make sense at all. btw HR is never described as being small in the show. so HR and HS being small is only book canon, not show canon.







This is all very true but how many of those itinerant priests got to be the head of the centralised organised religion? How many of them were able to clamber or leapfrog over the already established heirarchical structure?



I think you'll find the answer is none.



The Lollards were always outsiders and they remained outsiders, they were designated heretics in the end and persecuted and stamped out. Same goes for the Cathars, Albigensians and others of their ilk. Rabble-raising, causing internal strife, taking a few towns is one thing getting to the top of the official pre-existing organisation is quite another. Basically, it doesn't happen.



Even Martin Luther was only successful because he actively created another branch of the same religion.






so you say the theory cannot be right because something like that never happened in the real world? well i guess dragons, others, shadowassassins never appeared in the books, because such things never existed in the real world...



this is fantasy-fiction and grrm explicitly stated that he is inspired by the realworld, but makes it "bigger". instead of a wall thats 20(?) feet high we have a wall thats 700 feet high. instead of a fake piest we have a fake pope. is that really a problem?


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if the theory is correct, what kind of actor should they cast? i don't think they could find someone in his 30s who looks like an old man and casting a young man and make him older wouldn't make sense. if you have a character who looks old then you cast an old actor, no matter how old the character is supposed to be.

and why should the height of the actor be an issue? he cannot play HR because HR is described as being small in the books, but he can play the HS who is also described as being small in the books? that argument doesn't make sense at all. btw HR is never described as being small in the show. so HR and HS being small is only book canon, not show canon.

That's a good point, but I'd rather not consider the casting because we know for a fact there's plenty of actors of all types around the world who could fit a description as a short angular thin white male of around 45 with a grizzled grey brown beard. Especially in Europe, where they get most of their actors.

You're right though, they're blantantly ignoring book canon again, as they did with Jorah as well, who's a linchpin in the "Bear Island" metaphors of this theory. Let's face it, there's men who look like bears, and then there's this handsome Hollywood actor, lol

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and why should the height of the actor be an issue? he cannot play HR because HR is described as being small in the books, but he can play the HS who is also described as being small in the books? that argument doesn't make sense at all. btw HR is never described as being small in the show. so HR and HS being small is only book canon, not show canon.

Sorry, I don't know if we're all talking at cross purposes here.

A few people have said that the casting of Jonathan Pryce as the High Septon by the show means that the High Septon in the books can't possibly be Howland Reed because Howland Reed isn't as old as Jonathan Pryce.

My point was that the actor Jonathan Pryce is too tall to be the High Sparrow as he is described in the books (which is small) and that this highlights that the show doesn't seem to follow the books' descriptions.

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@Clariana

Our theory is that HS is not a genuine itinerant priest. His is not a holy calling - and it is completely appropriate he would therefore use a coup to grab the only power that has the potential (and known history of the ability to) undermine the throne with a mixture of mob and religion.

(Just as an interesting side note: there is historical precedent for a non-priest taking the highest religious office in the land and thereby "leapfrogging" over the established heirarchy (albeit by the King's political appointment). Thomas Becket, already the Chancellor, was neither a monk nor an ordained priest when the King nominated him as Archbishop of Canterbury, and was only ordained as a priest one day before being consecrated as Archbishop.)

But you were attempting to support your arguments in favour of the theory using actual historical examples and I was pointing out that in fact religious history does not support your arguments. Religious dissenters do not go on to become high authorities in the organisations they move against. Neither, BTW, are there any historical precedents for an impostor or a critic of a religious organisation successfully mounting an internal coup against it. Yes, there have been schisms such as those leading to Protestantism and others, but that is not applicable here.

Using arguments based on history leads us to conclude that the HS is in fact who he presents as an orthodox, if radical, septon.

Again, Thomas a Becket does not support your argument because as you say he was appointed by a monarch and clearly this HS who you say is actually HR was not appointed by the monarch.

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But you were attempting to support your arguments in favour of the theory using actual historical examples and I was pointing out that in fact religious history does not support your arguments. Religious dissenters do not go on to become high authorities in the organisations they move against. Neither, BTW, are there any historical precedents for an impostor or a critic of a religious organisation successfully mounting an internal coup against it. Yes, there have been schisms such as those leading to Protestantism and others, but that is not applicable here.

Using arguments based on history leads us to conclude that the HS is in fact who he presents as an orthodox, if radical, septon.

Again, Thomas a Becket does not support your argument because as you say he was appointed by a monarch and clearly this HS who you say is actually HR was not appointed by the monarch.

No, re-reading my posts, I don't believe I said any such thing. I was giving some historical context to the idea of illiterate itinerant priests and illustrating how someone educated and, in this story, someone who could 'weave words' might pose as such a priest successfully.

.

I am, however, very interested in what you claim is "argument based on history" which shows (using your words in inverted commas):

  • an "orthodox, if radical" itinerant clergyman;

who has "leapfrogged";

by force of arms;

to the top office in the state religion;

which you say would lead you "to conclude that the HS is in fact" who he claims to be.

You haven't set out that "argument based in history" or any examples in any of your responses, and I'd be very interested in it, especially as that argument you say you rely on would seem to contradict what you've said yourself above (i.e. "Religious dissenters do not go on to become high authorities in the organisations they move against")!

.

Your final paragraph is not understood. I was explicit that I was merely making an interesting note about someone who became head of a church in which he was not a priest, and I was careful to note how it was different (the machinations of the King). It is not correct of you to state that I made any claim that the note was supporting my argument.

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That's a good point, but I'd rather not consider the casting because we know for a fact there's plenty of actors of all types around the world who could fit a description as a short angular thin white male of around 45 with a grizzled grey brown beard. Especially in Europe, where they get most of their actors.

You're right though, they're blantantly ignoring book canon again, as they did with Jorah as well, who's a linchpin in the "Bear Island" metaphors of this theory. Let's face it, there's men who look like bears, and then there's this handsome Hollywood actor, lol

i basically wanted to say that we shouldn't consider the casting so i guess we on the same side of this argument. though a 45-year old might still be too young to fit the description of "old and frail", so pryce fits better i think. in general most of the actors look better than the characters as described in the books (tyrion, arya, brienne), but that's hollywood and the acting abilities are way more important than the look anyway.

Sorry, I don't know if we're all talking at cross purposes here.

A few people have said that the casting of Jonathan Pryce as the High Septon by the show means that the High Septon in the books can't possibly be Howland Reed because Howland Reed isn't as old as Jonathan Pryce.

My point was that the actor Jonathan Pryce is too tall to be the High Sparrow as he is described in the books (which is small) and that this highlights that the show doesn't seem to follow the books' descriptions.

i think i was referring to lady woodlands post or maybe i just was confused. essentially we were saying the same thing, right?

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Ser Hodor and everybody else, please don't look at TV to tell us how Howland Reed is going to go. FFS, they're combining Arianne/Trystane into one character or something. Also, the baby stab. Completely prevents/upsets what GRRM is doing with Jeyne Westerling. Don't rely on the TV for anything else than what it is, which is pretty awesome TV, IMO but not A Song of Ice And Fire.



OK. That said, I would love for HR to enter the story as the High Sparrow. I simply don't think it's likely. HR is a hardcore Old Gods believer, and he just doesn't have the love for the Fot7 that a HS needs. Also, it makes way more plot sense for the HIgh Sparrow to be some rando from the Riverlands or somehwere who goes into KL and fucks everything up. There are kazillions of historical parallells.

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OK. That said, I would love for HR to enter the story as the High Sparrow. I simply don't think it's likely. HR is a hardcore Old Gods believer, and he just doesn't have the love for the Fot7 that a HS needs. Also, it makes way more plot sense for the HIgh Sparrow to be some rando from the Riverlands or somehwere who goes into KL and fucks everything up. There are kazillions of historical parallells.

Precisely.

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I am, however, very interested in what you claim is "argument based on history" which shows (using your words in inverted commas):

  • an "orthodox, if radical" itinerant clergyman;

who has "leapfrogged";

by force of arms;

to the top office in the state religion;

which you say would lead you "to conclude that the HS is in fact" who he claims to be.

Blah, blah, blah...

Please don't misquote me, what I said was:

Using arguments based on history leads us to conclude that the HS is in fact who he presents as an orthodox, if radical, septon.

And by this I mean, HS is genuinely who he presents as, he is not HR or anyone else in disguise. He is orthodox meaning he was brought up in the faith and he believes in the faith. He is radical in that his interpretation of the faith is extremist.

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