High Septon = Howland Reed 3.0

[Faceless Void]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I find this theory fascinating. There's a lot going for and against it, and it's been fun seeing both sides of the argument unfold. Here are my thoughts:

I think, age aside, everything else seems to fit. Especially when you consider Howland's kids: Jojen and Meera.

The High Septon is described often as solemn, and he's essentially set an elaborate trap for Cersei.

This reminds me of 2 things: Jojen's repeated solemn nature, and Meera's net.

When I go back and read over the scene where Meera play-fights Summer, I see a pretty stark parallel to what the High Septon did to Cersei:

- Holding your ground

- Waiting for your enemy to come to you

- Trapping your enemy

- Watching as the enemy thrashes around

I think Bran later comments on how odd it is that a small person like Jojen is leading their group. This, to me, resonates with what the High Septon has done.

I also think, if you consider the Seven, the High Septon embodies the judgement aspect of The Father. That said, maybe this suggests he's a father himself.

A little nice touch I have thought of which may be going to far in but English Gcse has taught me the more bs it sounds the better. Anyway as you have said many of the sparrows carry axes no if Howland REED is the high septon then combining REEDS and AXES make fasces, the symbol of power in ancient Rome. The axe symbolises the power over life (usually a consul for the most part who commanded armies in republic Rome) in the field. The reed symbolises his control over those around him for their punishment. We have already seen punishment been given out, will we see death?

This is awesome! I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up before!

It definitely seems fitting to the theory. The High Septon being a Reed, with men mainly carrying axes, suddenly assuming power in King's Landing. Brilliant :)

[willofDorne]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I find this theory fascinating. There's a lot going for and against it, and it's been fun seeing both sides of the argument unfold. Here are my thoughts:

I think, age aside, everything else seems to fit. Especially when you consider Howland's kids: Jojen and Meera.

The High Septon is described often as solemn, and he's essentially set an elaborate trap for Cersei.

This reminds me of 2 things: Jojen's repeated solemn nature, and Meera's net.

When I go back and read over the scene where Meera play-fights Summer, I see a pretty stark parallel to what the High Septon did to Cersei:

- Holding your ground

- Waiting for your enemy to come to you

- Trapping your enemy

- Watching as the enemy thrashes around

I think Bran later comments on how odd it is that a small person like Jojen is leading their group. This, to me, resonates with what the High Septon has done.

I also think, if you consider the Seven, the High Septon embodies the judgement aspect of The Father. That said, maybe this suggests he's a father himself.

This is awesome! I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up before!

It definitely seems fitting to the theory. The High Septon being a Reed, with men mainly carrying axes, suddenly assuming power in King's Landing. Brilliant :)

I'm learning not to put to much weight in the circular arguments that are being put forth, and keep pulling up Jojen And Meera and Bran, as I'm sure there's a wealth of material to support there, and we've all barely scratched the surface.

Here's a quote when Bran first encounters them in CoK

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

This is followed by many mentions of Howland Reed taking place in Bran's head. To me this means Howland is already off in the Riverlands posing as a Septon and gathering evidence against Tywin Lannister. His plan of course changes in later books, but that's my belief of what the line of action is. Why else would he not attend with his children?

Welcome to the boards! :cheers:

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

Ser Hodor and everybody else, please don't look at TV to tell us how Howland Reed is going to go. FFS, they're combining Arianne/Trystane into one character or something. Also, the baby stab. Completely prevents/upsets what GRRM is doing with Jeyne Westerling. Don't rely on the TV for anything else than what it is, which is pretty awesome TV, IMO but not A Song of Ice And Fire.

OK. That said, I would love for HR to enter the story as the High Sparrow. I simply don't think it's likely. HR is a hardcore Old Gods believer, and he just doesn't have the love for the Fot7 that a HS needs. Also, it makes way more plot sense for the HIgh Sparrow to be some rando from the Riverlands or somehwere who goes into KL and fucks everything up. There are kazillions of historical parallells.

we (willofDorne, Ser Quork and me) already agreed that the show's casting doesn't matter. i think this should be clear from our previous posts.

so, why would it make more sense for the plot? or how can you know? as long as we don't know how the plot will go on we can't say what makes sense. and from a narrative standpoint it makes more sense to use a character who was already introduced than one you have to invent for that single purpose. do you imagine grrm thinking "hmm i should fuck everything up in KL, maybe i can invent a random character who does that for me". i already said that it would be the personification of a deus ex macchina and thus lazy writing. on the other hand letting the most awaited character in the series appear without anyone noticing seems quite brilliant for me.

Long time lurker, first time poster. I find this theory fascinating. There's a lot going for and against it, and it's been fun seeing both sides of the argument unfold. Here are my thoughts:

I think, age aside, everything else seems to fit. Especially when you consider Howland's kids: Jojen and Meera.

The High Septon is described often as solemn, and he's essentially set an elaborate trap for Cersei.

This reminds me of 2 things: Jojen's repeated solemn nature, and Meera's net.

When I go back and read over the scene where Meera play-fights Summer, I see a pretty stark parallel to what the High Septon did to Cersei:

- Holding your ground

- Waiting for your enemy to come to you

- Trapping your enemy

- Watching as the enemy thrashes around

I think Bran later comments on how odd it is that a small person like Jojen is leading their group. This, to me, resonates with what the High Septon has done.

nice observations and good to see there are still people who have something to add instead of repeating the same speculation that have been said and disproved a hundred times.

would be nice to see one of the critics finally present some textual evidence against it which should be easy as they say it's so obvious that the theory is wrong.

[Faceless Void]

I haven't read through all the last versions of this thread, so I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, but I think the age argument is being addressed improperly. I don't think it should necessarily center around how old Howland is (as it's proven he's in his 30's). I think the more relevant piece to discuss is, how old is the High Septon?

From what I've gathered over this thread and the last ones:

- The High Septon has a lined face, sharp features, and grey hair.

- Cersei perceives the High Septon as old.

- The Appendices describe the High Septon as a frail and old man.

Is this all we know (age-wise) about him? Again, not sure if I missed something.

[willofDorne]

I haven't read through all the last versions of this thread, so I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, but I think the age argument is being addressed improperly. I don't think it should necessarily center around how old Howland is (as it's proven he's in his 30's). I think the more relevant piece to discuss is, how old is the High Septon?

From what I've gathered over this thread and the last ones:

- The High Septon has a lined face, sharp features, and grey hair.

- Cersei perceives the High Septon as old.

- The Appendices describe the High Septon as a frail and old man.

Is this all we know (age-wise) about him? Again, not sure if I missed something.

Yeah, that's still pretty inconclusive. A description is a far cry from a hard age, which we have for Howland. And it's not "Grey" it's grey and brown.

I'm adding something else to Pobeb's little discovery on "Bears" and "Captives" I think it's too much to expect people to see the coorelation between the bear and the maiden fair on their own, so I'll add a note about that.

Interestingly, we have seen other female captives accompanied by a She-Bear. Examining them more thoroughly, we can see a pattern develop:

A female captive (Catelyn) is kept in the company of She-Bears (Maege, Dacey)

A female captive (Asha) is kept in the company of a She-Bear (Alysane)

But what about when the captive is a male, or better yet, a male lion? In ADwD, we are given the possibility of this interesting parallel:

A male lion captive (Tyrion) is kept in the company of a He-Bear (Jorah)

A female lion captive (Cersei) is kept in the company of ____________

Fill in the blank ;)

This could very well be a play on the "Bear and the Maiden Fair" song, with GRRM playing with gender roles against his own lore.

[JonSnow4President]

Yeah, that's still pretty inconclusive. A description is a far cry from a hard age, which we have for Howland. And it's not "Grey" it's grey and brown.

I'm adding something else to Pobeb's little discovery on "Bears" and "Captives" I think it's too much to expect people to see the coorelation between the bear and the maiden fair on their own, so I'll add a note about that.

This could very well be a play on the "Bear and the Maiden Fair" song, with GRRM playing with gender roles against his own lore.

That ignores a whole bunch of northmen being held captive by the freys or the ones being held at Harrenhall. That omits Davos being held captive by Manderly. That omits Arya/Gendry being held captive in multiple places. That omits Ned and Sanda being held captive in king's landing. That omits Tyrion being held captive in round 1. That omits Jaime being held captive, both by Stark forces (don't recall any mentions of the Mormont's around him, and then again later. You can't selectively pick and choose from one category, find a similarity from your selection, and then use that to extrapolate out to something else that has no other link (and you can't start from assuming the septas are mormonts, since that's the conclusion you're trying to support).

[Ziriath]

Also it omits Jorah himself, being enslaved.

As for similarities and coincidences: Do Dany & Drogo (Moon of my life, My sun and stars) have anything to do with Sansa & Arya, who are like sun & moon (different) according to Ned?

[willofDorne]

That ignores a whole bunch of northmen being held captive by the freys or the ones being held at Harrenhall. That omits Davos being held captive by Manderly. That omits Arya/Gendry being held captive in multiple places. That omits Ned and Sanda being held captive in king's landing. That omits Tyrion being held captive in round 1. That omits Jaime being held captive, both by Stark forces (don't recall any mentions of the Mormont's around him, and then again later. You can't selectively pick and choose from one category, find a similarity from your selection, and then use that to extrapolate out to something else that has no other link (and you can't start from assuming the septas are mormonts, since that's the conclusion you're trying to support).

We're talking about a "lion and a bear" or a "Bear and a Maiden Fair" instances only, it's true. But you don't have to be a mathematician to see the coincidence. It is striking. don't think anyone ever wanted to say that only ever would Bears capture Lions and nobody else has anything to do with it.

You bring up Jaime and that's a good point. But if we look at the "Bear and the Maiden Fair" the maiden is actually changed by the bear. Perhaps Jaime wasn't changed, or punished enough. We know he doesn't have a lot of remorse. Perhaps the fact that in Jaime's instance, the tables were eventually turned and Brienne became a live show with the Bear, and then became nearly an agent of House Lannister says something about all this as well.

The point is, we have Lions (who are fair of hair), and Bears (from bear island). That's the point I was making... I'm just drawing attention to possible literary devices.

[Faceless Void]

That ignores a whole bunch of northmen being held captive by the freys or the ones being held at Harrenhall. That omits Davos being held captive by Manderly. That omits Arya/Gendry being held captive in multiple places. That omits Ned and Sanda being held captive in king's landing. That omits Tyrion being held captive in round 1. That omits Jaime being held captive, both by Stark forces (don't recall any mentions of the Mormont's around him, and then again later. You can't selectively pick and choose from one category, find a similarity from your selection, and then use that to extrapolate out to something else that has no other link (and you can't start from assuming the septas are mormonts, since that's the conclusion you're trying to support).

I don't mean to insult, but I'm not sure what your point is. All the examples you listed had no bears. The parallel being employed are bears and their captives. So, of course it's selective; he's attempting to draw a parallel with that specific criteria in mind. And, judging from the selection and criteria, a parallel does exist:

- Maege and Dacey (bear) were once with Catelyn when she was a captive.

- Alysane (bear) was once with Asha when she was a captive

- Jorah (bear) was once with Tyrion when he was a captive

Does that necessarily mean that Cersei's gaolers are bears? No, this could simply be coincidence. But then couple this with the septa's descriptions, Cersei's walk of shame = bears dancing down the Sinner Steps, and the Bear Isle gate-carving, and I think it begins to look suspicious, imo of course.

Also, I think there's a better argument that the sparrows aren't necessarily just northmen, but remnants of both the Riverland and Northern armies. Which would certainly explain all the sparrows at Castle Darry, and the sparrows bringing children to the Crossroads Inn.

But, again, does this all mean that Howland is the High Septon? No, it supports the theory, but doesn't prove the theory true.

The age-old argument of age casts a pretty big shadow over the entire theory. The only way I see it working is if the High Septon isn't really as old as he's described, and Cersei and the Appendices were wrong.

[Ziriath]

Catelyn was a captive of Maege & Dacey? Eh, how and where? I remember them talking with her while riding somewhere. But being in the same castle in the same time does not necesarilly mean Cat was their captive. (More like Robb's, who wanted to prevent her from making more bad decisions...)

[The Bear]

I really like this theory, it's interesting and has some fair points to back it up but I don't ultimately think it's true. I am dying to know more about Howland Reed though! Was he the KotLT? If not, who was? What did he do to save Ned? What did he see? What is he doing now? He is probably the character I am the most intrigued by in the entire series.

[willofDorne]

I really like this theory, it's interesting and has some fair points to back it up but I don't ultimately think it's true. I am dying to know more about Howland Reed though! Was he the KotLT? If not, who was? What did he do to save Ned? What did he see? What is he doing now? He is probably the character I am the most intrigued by in the entire series.

Thanks, Bear. :agree:

Catelyn was a captive of Maege & Dacey? Eh, how and where? I remember them talking with her while riding somewhere. But being in the same castle in the same time does not necesarilly mean Cat was their captive. (More like Robb's, who wanted to prevent her from making more bad decisions...)

Good point. I thought maybe after she freed Jaime, but I just looked at SoS and she's being kept under house arrest at Riverrun with only one guard at her door. It being Riverrun, I doubt it's a she-bear. But this part has little and less to do with the theory, as we have enough she-bears/lions/maidens as is. i'll change the theory, good catch.

[Faceless Void]

Catelyn was a captive of Maege & Dacey? Eh, how and where? I remember them talking with her while riding somewhere. But being in the same castle in the same time does not necesarilly mean Cat was their captive. (More like Robb's, who wanted to prevent her from making more bad decisions...)

Sorry, I misworded. I meant, captives and their company. As in, when Cateltyn was Robb's captive, her main company was Maege and Daecy. Or when Asha is Stannis' captive, and her main company is Alysane.

Similar to Cersei as the High Septon's captive,and her main company being the septas who resemble she-bears.

[Lady Woodland]

Hi, sorry if I'm being a little dense - what do you mean?

Hi sorry,

what you say about "aging up" I agree with, a good example is the Beric character- about 15 years older I judge, & naturally all the children. Both the HS & HR are both described as small, as you point out Jonathon Pryce is 6" tall which is odd, I don't see Cersei able to "push" a 6" man out of the way it seems an odd choice in that respect.

[Lady Woodland]

A little nice touch I have thought of which may be going to far in but English Gcse has taught me the more bs it sounds the better. Anyway as you have said many of the sparrows carry axes no if Howland REED is the high septon then combining REEDS and AXES make fasces, the symbol of power in ancient Rome. The axe symbolises the power over life (usually a consul for the most part who commanded armies in republic Rome) in the field. The reed symbolises his control over those around him for their punishment. We have already seen punishment been given out, will we see death?

Sorry I missed this, it sounds like a really good pick up, I'm really intrigued by this, do you have any further information or examples?

[Ser Quork]

i think i was referring to lady woodlands post or maybe i just was confused. essentially we were saying the same thing, right?

I think so! :)

Please don't misquote me, what I said was:

Using arguments based on history leads us to conclude that the HS is in fact who he presents as an orthodox, if radical, septon.

And by this I mean, HS is genuinely who he presents as, he is not HR or anyone else in disguise. He is orthodox meaning he was brought up in the faith and he believes in the faith. He is radical in that his interpretation of the faith is extremist.

I didn't misquote you. Far from it. I was trying to draw out the historical arguments you said you had to test against the contextual elements we're given in this story, but got a repetition of your opinion instead. Not that there's anything wrong with your opinion - I just hoped for something more discursive.

This is followed by many mentions of Howland Reed taking place in Bran's head. To me this means Howland is already off in the Riverlands posing as a Septon and gathering evidence against Tywin Lannister. His plan of course changes in later books, but that's my belief of what the line of action is. Why else would he not attend with his children?

:agree:

HR's ability to send his children off to Winterfell, unescorted, to renew the pledges and (seemingly) with the intention of fulfilling Jojen's greendreams is one of the things that I find odd and (to me, at least) lends some support to this theory. By this I mean (and, yes, it's pure speculation), HR seems to take a more far-sighted, perhaps mystical, approach to potential dangers that might lie in wait for his children and heirs to take such steps which to others might seem injudicious and possibly dangerous. Perhaps this approach also extends to what he himself is willing to do, which to others would seem injudicious and dangerous.

so, why would it make more sense for the plot? or how can you know? as long as we don't know how the plot will go on we can't say what makes sense. and from a narrative standpoint it makes more sense to use a character who was already introduced than one you have to invent for that single purpose. do you imagine grrm thinking "hmm i should fuck everything up in KL, maybe i can invent a random character who does that for me". i already said that it would be the personification of a deus ex macchina and thus lazy writing. on the other hand letting the most awaited character in the series appear without anyone noticing seems quite brilliant for me.

:agree:

The age-old argument of age casts a pretty big shadow over the entire theory. The only way I see it working is if the High Septon isn't really as old as he's described, and Cersei and the Appendices were wrong.

Possibly. I only finished reading all the books a couple of months ago, and re-read them once (using the Boiled Leather re-read order). I don't watch the show, and I hadn't looked at any forums until I finished reading so I wouldn't be spoilt. When looking through the Appendices, my assumption was (and is) that they were compiled to reflect characters at the beginning of each, not at the end (because that would result in spoilers). AFFC and ADWD run concurrently (to an extent) so the High Septon in the Appendix is the second High Septon (who was indeed old and frail) who was killed on Cersei's orders in AFFC. If this theory is right, the Appendix might even be a device to misdirect the reader. Or I could be completely wrong - and that's fine too. ;)

I am dying to know more about Howland Reed though! Was he the KotLT? If not, who was? What did he do to save Ned? What did he see? What is he doing now? He is probably the character I am the most intrigued by in the entire series.

Even if this theory proved wrong, I think we can all agree that Howland Reed is really intriguing. Roll on, TWOW!

[Berric_Dondiedagain]

if the Glover don't fit- you must acquit !!!

[butterbumps!]

would be nice to see one of the critics finally present some textual evidence against it which should be easy as they say it's so obvious that the theory is wrong.

Well, I don't think that this is a compelling theory at all. But I already voiced my dissent in here, and don't feel any compulsion to beat a dead horse. I'm posting this, and moving on.

With that said, though, I'd like to point out that this critic (i.e. me), did sufficiently present non-negotiable "evidence" (technically, a logic argument) against this theory, which no one else seems to have presented, and somehow keeps being omitted from these summaries of "counter-arguments."

The real problem with this theory is motive. Until supporters can answer all three of the following questions adequately (which the original OP failed to do in the thread I linked), whether this theory is "possible" in some abstract sense is beside the point:

1. If HR is politically savvy enough to infiltrate the Faith, he'd be politically savvy enough to know that after Tywin's death, the Lannisters are done. There is therefore no reason to go so far out of his way in commandeering a religion he doesn't even subscribe to in order to bring down House Lannister, since they are done anyway. The vengeance motivation therefore does not exist, as it's beating a dead horse.

2. If HR was with Ned at the ToJ, then he is plum aware that Ned and Lya are against the idea of making Jon king. Why on earth would HR go out of his way to commandeer a a religion he doesn't subscribe to in order to defy Ned and Lya's wishes to make Jon king? Even if we suspend disbelief long enough to roll with the idea that HR might be super interested in politics, why is he going against Ned and Lya on this?

3. HR sent his 2 children to Bran to find the last greenseer. Further, he's the one identified person we've seen in story who has made a pilgrimage to the Isle of Faces to see the Green Men. Suffice it to say, HR more than likely knows what's going on in the magical world. Why, when it's very likely HR knows there's an apocalyptic "unpleasantness" occurring, is he screwing around infiltrating a religion he does not subscribe to in order to either get Lannister vengeance or add Jon Snow to the list of "pretenders" fighting for the throne, a fight which serves nothing at the moment except to divide everyone's focus away from the actual problem emerging beyond the Wall?

As mentioned, I'm not looking to argue with anyone about this, or feel particularly invested in disproving it. If someone can answer these questions adequately, in a way that serves to resolve all 3 in a complementary fashion, then that's great; it would strengthen the theory vastly. But without resolving these (and all 3 really have to be addressed), the theory isn't very sensible because it lacks strong motive on HR's part. And if you're going to infiltrate a religion you don't even subscribe to to become head of it in order to wield it to some political end, you really need a really good motive for doing this.

[Clariana]

I didn't misquote you. Far from it. I was trying to draw out the historical arguments you said you had to test against the contextual elements we're given in this story, but got a repetition of your opinion instead. Not that there's anything wrong with your opinion - I just hoped for something more discursive.

You did. You were presenting your own assumptions and presumptions as mine.

I tend to be succinct and I stand by what I said above.

[WeaselPie]

Sorry, I don't know if we're all talking at cross purposes here.

A few people have said that the casting of Jonathan Pryce as the High Septon by the show means that the High Septon in the books can't possibly be Howland Reed because Howland Reed isn't as old as Jonathan Pryce.

My point was that the actor Jonathan Pryce is too tall to be the High Sparrow as he is described in the books (which is small) and that this highlights that the show doesn't seem to follow the books' descriptions.

Great contributions to this thread!

The argument about Jonathan Pryce, which seems to keep cropping up whether it is his age or height, is no argument at all.

Thomas Sangster is 5'10. If we heard he was cast, everyone would be arguing he can't be Jojen because he's too tall.

Sean Bean is 55, played a man in his mid 30's. If we heard he was cast, everyone would be arguing he can't be Ned Stark because he's too old.

We don't know hold old Hodor is in the books, but Thomas Nairn is 38 and almost entirely grey. There, a real world scenario of someone in their 30's who is grey haired. Plus another case where the actor was cast, not his specific age or hair color.

Seems to me that the casting director and D&D are carefully choosing great actors for important roles, and can fudge the rest by omission. I doubt the show is going to start getting into exact ages or heights, so these arguments are worthless.

And I've said it already many times, our only view of how the HS looks is from Cersei. A shabby looking grey-haired man who is treating her harshly and in her opinion unfairly. She certainly isn't going to be kind while describing him. "He's an old meanie!" And it would not be the first time the appendixes state "facts" that we know are not facts.