High Septon = Howland Reed 3.0

[willofDorne]

snip

I'm not adding this to the main thread FAQS because it's effectively the same question asked in a different way, "What's Howland Reed's motive?" While I admit, putting Jon on the throne is a flimsy motive at best, I think one can think of varying motives for being in KL if you try. Why not ask why is Melisandre at the Wall, or Thoros of Myr with the BWB? Or why is Sam in Oldtown when it's effectively going to put him out of the story for 20 years as he studies to becoming a Maester? Who knows?

By all means, post to this thread whatever doubts you have, I don't mean to discourage you. But I can't add every single question that may be asked differently or every question answer that may be answered different to the FAQS because that would take the fun out of it.

[Faceless Void]

Well, I don't think that this is a compelling theory at all. But I already voiced my dissent in here, and don't feel any compulsion to beat a dead horse. I'm posting this, and moving on.

With that said, though, I'd like to point out that this critic (i.e. me), did sufficiently present non-negotiable "evidence" (technically, a logic argument) against this theory, which no one else seems to have presented, and somehow keeps being omitted from these summaries of "counter-arguments."

The real problem with this theory is motive. Until supporters can answer all three of the following questions adequately (which the original OP failed to do in the thread I linked), whether this theory is "possible" in some abstract sense is beside the point:

1. If HR is politically savvy enough to infiltrate the Faith, he'd be politically savvy enough to know that after Tywin's death, the Lannisters are done. There is therefore no reason to go so far out of his way in commandeering a religion he doesn't even subscribe to in order to bring down House Lannister, since they are done anyway. The vengeance motivation therefore does not exist, as it's beating a dead horse.

2. If HR was with Ned at the ToJ, then he is plum aware that Ned and Lya are against the idea of making Jon king. Why on earth would HR go out of his way to commandeer a a religion he doesn't subscribe to in order to defy Ned and Lya's wishes to make Jon king? Even if we suspend disbelief long enough to roll with the idea that HR might be super interested in politics, why is he going against Ned and Lya on this?

3. HR sent his 2 children to Bran to find the last greenseer. Further, he's the one identified person we've seen in story who has made a pilgrimage to the Isle of Faces to see the Green Men. Suffice it to say, HR more than likely knows what's going on in the magical world. Why, when it's very likely HR knows there's an apocalyptic "unpleasantness" occurring, is he screwing around infiltrating a religion he does not subscribe to in order to either get Lannister vengeance or add Jon Snow to the list of "pretenders" fighting for the throne, a fight which serves nothing at the moment except to divide everyone's focus away from the actual problem emerging beyond the Wall?

As mentioned, I'm not looking to argue with anyone about this, or feel particularly invested in disproving it. If someone can answer these questions adequately, in a way that serves to resolve all 3 in a complementary fashion, then that's great; it would strengthen the theory vastly. But without resolving these (and all 3 really have to be addressed), the theory isn't very sensible because it lacks strong motive on HR's part. And if you're going to infiltrate a religion you don't even subscribe to to become head of it in order to wield it to some political end, you really need a really good motive for doing this.

Good questions. I know I'm new and probably uninformed, but let me give your questions a crack:

1) If the High Septon is Howland, he was en route to King's Landing well before Tywin's death. In fact, Brienne meets him close by KL, as she's traveling to Duskendale, which is the morning after Tywin's death.

I personally don't think Howland's motivation is simply revenge. I think it's more to overthrow the Lannister's rule, which didn't end once Tywin died, as Tommen still sat the IT (meaning Cersei was the ruler). This leads into the next point.

2) I agree that Howland witnessed Lyanna's death, and knows of the promise to keep Jon secret, but I disagree in that he's committed to upholding Lyanna's promise. Howland's allegiance is to the Lord of Winterfell, who at that time was Ned. So, it makes sense that during Ned's rule he would honor Ned's wishes. However, the next Lord of Winterfell was Robb, and Robb's final decree was to legitimize Jon and make him King (upon his death, of course).

So, given that Howland is loyal to House Stark, and the decree was Robb's last wish, I think the argument for Howland trying to establish Jon as King still stands; despite Lyanna's dying wish, in which Ned is the only noted person committed to upholding that promise.

3) Someone brought up the idea that the Faith Militant's symbol is Lightbringer. I think, if you're looking for motives to fit the greater overall danger, this could be a clue in that direction. If Howland does possess a certain magical relationship with the Old Gods, perhaps he also knows about the significance of Lightbringer. And, given his understanding of Jon's true lineage, it would make sense for Howland to make a push for Jon to be King (as Jon could unify the realm to stop the Others).

I don't know if I adequately answered each of your questions, but that's my best shot.

[Ser Quork]

Good questions. I know I'm new and probably uninformed, but let me give your questions a crack:

1) If the High Septon is Howland, he was en route to King's Landing well before Tywin's death. In fact, Brienne meets him close by KL, as she's traveling to Duskendale, which is the morning after Tywin's death.

I personally don't think Howland's motivation is simply revenge. I think it's more to overthrow the Lannister's rule, which didn't end once Tywin died, as Tommen still sat the IT (meaning Cersei was the ruler). This leads into the next point.

2) I agree that Howland witnessed Lyanna's death, and knows of the promise to keep Jon secret, but I disagree in that he's committed to upholding Lyanna's promise. Howland's allegiance is to the Lord of Winterfell, who at that time was Ned. So, it makes sense that during Ned's rule he would honor Ned's wishes. However, the next Lord of Winterfell was Robb, and Robb's final decree was to legitimize Jon and make him King (upon his death, of course).

So, given that Howland is loyal to House Stark, and the decree was Robb's last wish, I think the argument for Howland trying to establish Jon as King still stands; despite Lyanna's dying wish, in which Ned is the only noted person committed to upholding that promise.

3) Someone brought up the idea that the Faith Militant's symbol is Lightbringer. I think, if you're looking for motives to fit the greater overall danger, this could be a clue in that direction. If Howland does possess a certain magical relationship with the Old Gods, perhaps he also knows about the significance of Lightbringer. And, given his understanding of Jon's true lineage, it would make sense for Howland to make a push for Jon to be King (as Jon could unify the realm to stop the Others).

I don't know if I adequately answered each of your questions, but that's my best shot.

:agree: All good points, and well made.

[butterbumps!]

I'm not adding this to the main thread FAQS because it's effectively the same question asked in a different way, "What's Howland Reed's motive?" While I admit, putting Jon on the throne is a flimsy motive at best, I think one can think of varying motives for being in KL if you try. Why not ask why is Melisandre at the Wall, or Thoros of Myr with the BWB? Or why is Sam in Oldtown when it's effectively going to put him out of the story for 20 years as he studies to becoming a Maester? Who knows?

By all means, post to this thread whatever doubts you have, I don't mean to discourage you. But I can't add every single question that may be asked differently or every question answer that may be answered different to the FAQS because that would take the fun out of it.

Well, for example, Mel is at the Wall because she thinks the end of the world is coming, and connected the darkness of the Long Night with the one her god is supposed to vanquish, and she sees herself aiding in this process. So, yea, that pretty thoroughly answers that, as that's a pretty self-evident motive.

This is actually a pretty terrible example to bring up in your position, in light of how Mel and HR would both be 2 people who know there's an existential threat coming, and it plainly shows that Mel is not commandeering a religion she does not subscribe to in order to put someone on the throne/ get vengeance, but is trying to save the world from within the framework of her own religion, locating herself at the source of the trouble as she perceives it (up North).

Thoros is with the BwB for a roughly opposite reason: he has no stronger motive to be anywhere else. Unaware of this whole darkness apocalypse, not particularly devout anyway, and recently highly aware of injustice and suffering, there's little reason for him to leave. Such is not the case for HR wrt the HS.

Look, I am genuinely taking a "live and let live" attitude toward this. I don't remotely buy this theory, but I'm not looking to rain on your parade either, since this theory apparently has gleaned some sort of "Most Devout" following.

The thing that makes my questions about HR's motive different from the more general "What is HR's motive?" category is that it highlights 3 massive, critical holes in the current formulation of the motive.

I'm actually not trying to get these questions in the FAQ's. I'm encouraging you, and any other adherents to this theory, to reconcile the theory's motive with the 3 issues I presented. The current motive simply needs to be reformulated. I'm not trying to disprove it; I'm saying that as it stands, the theory has HR going absurdly far out of his way for a very weak motive. The motive should be strong enough to justify such extreme gymnastics HR's performing in being the HS. If no such strong motive can be determined, it probably means the theory isn't plausible. So I'm encouraging you guys to work on the motive a bit (or a lot) more. That's all.

snip

I don't think this is a bad attempt to answer the questions, but all of your points would lead to the logical conclusion that HR would be actively working to rally all of the Northmen to come to Jon's aid up at the Wall, not screwing around in KL with a religion who isn't presently concerned with the Others, but in smallfolk justice. (and keep in mind, Robb's will would render Jon a "Stark" not Targ, and only pertains to KitN, not the IT).

So anyway, I think that's just something to think about.

[WeaselPie]

Howland Reed's liege lord was killed because he exposed the Baratheon children as bastards. So, that's one motive, continue what Ned started.

Another motive is simple vengeance for Ned's murder.

His liege Lady and new liege Lord were murdered by the Lannisers.

Another is that he could be working with other Lord's and factions, and this is the best place he could be to further the destruction of House Lannister and their incest bastards. He's certainly not anywhere else.

Howland Reed sent his children to an uncertain fate. If he is fearful of the coming Ice war, what better way to prepare than to amass armies who aren't beholden to the crown, sack the sept of valuables to fund these armies, unseat the power on the Iron Throne, and eventually order his new armies to the fight. We all know how hard it is to amass an army without gold or influence... the High Septon did it for free.

We know Robb sent him a letter, and we don't know the entire contents.

We also know Ned often sent letters to Howland. We also know Ned might have written a mysterious letter while in the dungeons.

So there are two more motivations - a request from Robb for help and whatever Ned possibly requested.

Yes, there could be motivation for Jon, but that's easily taken off the table if that is your sole objection.

Howland has plenty of motives, and the High Sparrow is suddenly the most powerful man in Westeros. I'd say he did damned well.

[Faceless Void]

I don't think this is a bad attempt to answer the questions, but all of your points would lead to the logical conclusion that HR would be actively working to rally all of the Northmen to come to Jon's aid up at the Wall, not screwing around in KL with a religion who isn't presently concerned with the Others, but in smallfolk justice. (and keep in mind, Robb's will would render Jon a "Stark" not Targ, and only pertains to KitN, not the IT).

So anyway, I think that's just something to think about.

That's a good point.

The only other reason I can see is Howland's knowledge of the magical world led him south instead of north. As in, he's aware of the fate that was to befall Jon, and simply went south to set up the stage for when Jon is resurrected. Judging by the prophecies, Jon "death" was probably necessary.

[Lady Woodland]

Well, I don't think that this is a compelling theory at all. But I already voiced my dissent in here, and don't feel any compulsion to beat a dead horse. I'm posting this, and moving on.

With that said, though, I'd like to point out that this critic (i.e. me), did sufficiently present non-negotiable "evidence" (technically, a logic argument) against this theory, which no one else seems to have presented, and somehow keeps being omitted from these summaries of "counter-arguments."

The real problem with this theory is motive. Until supporters can answer all three of the following questions adequately (which the original OP failed to do in the thread I linked), whether this theory is "possible" in some abstract sense is beside the point:

1. If HR is politically savvy enough to infiltrate the Faith, he'd be politically savvy enough to know that after Tywin's death, the Lannisters are done. There is therefore no reason to go so far out of his way in commandeering a religion he doesn't even subscribe to in order to bring down House Lannister, since they are done anyway. The vengeance motivation therefore does not exist, as it's beating a dead horse. This is an opinion imho, the way I read the books, Cersei is still Queen Regent with two illegitimate, heirs born of incest to her brother (who is still alive & the HS is not aware of Jaime's intentions) therefore I perceive still a threat until she's properly removed. In addition the annexing of the Tyrell's by potential marriage of Maegarey to Tommin just shifts frypans, the threat is not eliminated, But like yours this is my opinion.

2. If HR was with Ned at the ToJ, then he is plum aware that Ned and Lya are against the idea of making Jon king. Why on earth would HR go out of his way to commandeer a a religion he doesn't subscribe to in order to defy Ned and Lya's wishes to make Jon king? Even if we suspend disbelief long enough to roll with the idea that HR might be super interested in politics, why is he going against Ned and Lya on this? How do we know what Ned intended? everything in your comment is based on a still unproven theory that Jon is the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna & an assumption that he is a Targ, nobody knows what happened at the ToJ yet. I agree this theory falls apart if it's sole reason is to put Jon on the throne but it's not, & people who don't like this keep coming back to one piece of the theory when not all supporters subscribe to it (I don't) HR as the HS it's about righting wrongs. We don't know what HR knows, if he has connections through the WeirNet with BR he knows what's happened to Bran, Rickon & he also knows about Sansa, that's still 3 Starks to see right. In addition we know that while he was in the cells, Ned asks Varys to get a letter out, the Author has cleverly led us to believe that as Ned was thinking of Jon & promises we presume it's to Jon he want's to send a letter at the Wall. However it could have been he wanted to send a letter to HR (although Clariana is convinced HR cant read even though there has been text produced to offer as evidence his children are intelligent & learned) It could have been to Catelyn for all we know, Ned could have totally changed his mind about the succession of the IT.

3. HR sent his 2 children to Bran to find the last greenseer. Further, he's the one identified person we've seen in story who has made a pilgrimage to the Isle of Faces to see the Green Men. Suffice it to say, HR more than likely knows what's going on in the magical world. Why, when it's very likely HR knows there's an apocalyptic "unpleasantness" occurring, is he screwing around infiltrating a religion he does not subscribe to in order to either get Lannister vengeance or add Jon Snow to the list of "pretenders" fighting for the throne, a fight which serves nothing at the moment except to divide everyone's focus away from the actual problem emerging beyond the Wall? This is a personal viewpoint but I think HR knows from his experiences on the IotF that the separate religions actually have a common underlying basis on commonality (similar to the Old Testament & Judaism, Christianity & Islam) these beliefs have been subverted by time & history, the IT & the different faiths will not matter in the end, because the apocalyptic "unpleasantness" you refer to is coming. IMHO he is actually wise enough to understand that people must band together from all regions & all faiths regardless of past differences to fight off a common enemy. By uniting the disparate faiths they can better fight together for a common cause after all unlike Christianity & Islam we are led to believe the different faiths have actually existed peacefully side by side for generations without violence, so why should it be that big a deal, I believe this argument actually enhances the theory, HR is infiltrating the fot7 to reach people through shared threat.

As mentioned, I'm not looking to argue with anyone about this, or feel particularly invested in disproving it. If someone can answer these questions adequately, in a way that serves to resolve all 3 in a complementary fashion, then that's great; it would strengthen the theory vastly. But without resolving these (and all 3 really have to be addressed), the theory isn't very sensible because it lacks strong motive on HR's part. And if you're going to infiltrate a religion you don't even subscribe to to become head of it in order to wield it to some political end, you really need a really good motive for doing this.

[KhalPwno]

Hi willofDorne,

But as much as I want this to be true - it is not ...

Reason:

The producer of the tv show most likley know if the HS is HR and they choose to cast Jonahtan Pryce for it .... and this guy is for shure not HR - or I hope he is not! (Only option would be a glare spell but I dont think so)

here the link to "Game of Thrones: Season 5 – New Cast Members"

Since when has the show really bothered with how characters look compared to how they are described. Syrio is bald and slight, the lannister children have long curly blonde hair. The list goes on...

[ser hulk of house banner]

2. Howland Reed is no septon. In fact, if what little we know of of him is true, he is deeply into the religion of the Children of the Forest/Old Gods/Green Men, which has ACTUAL MYSTICAL POWERS, rather than the Fot7.

Isn't that covered by the weirwood staff and the 7 faces in his small Sept being faces of the old gods with their eyes that look alive via who he might be using to communicate out (assuming we all buy that he has magic and can communicate with the CotF) which also explains a lot of how the sparrows organized this whole takeover of Kings Landing?

It's not a stretch to assume HR is knowledgeable enough in the FotS to make this happen. Especially with all the subtle nods to the Old God's.

[willofDorne]

Isn't that covered by the weirwood staff and the 7 faces in his small Sept being faces of the old gods with their eyes that look alive via who he might be using to communicate out (assuming we all buy that he has magic and can communicate with the CotF) which also explains a lot of how the sparrows organized this whole takeover of Kings Landing?

It's not a stretch to assume HR is knowledgeable enough in the FotS to make this happen. Especially with all the subtle nods to the Old God's.

:agree:

Really well put! I think people undervalue those faces and that staff a lot. Welcome to the boards! :cheers:

[Faceless Void]

I was reading over the moment when Brienne meets the High Sparrow. Does anyone else find it odd that she never considers him old? In fact, the High Sparrow grabs one of the traces of the cart and begins pulling by himself. Seems odd for an old man to do that.

Also, I thought about Howland's noted ability to "weave words", and this line stood out to me:

One of the begging brothers spat, and a woman gave a moan. “You are false knights,” said the big man with the star carved on his chest. Several others brandished their cudgels.
The barefoot septon calmed them with a word.

Thoughts?

*edit*

I was re-reading some of Bran's chapters and came across this:

“The gods give many gifts, Bran. My sister is a hunter. It is given to her to run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish. She has sharp ears, keen eyes, a steady hand with net and spear. She can breathe mud and fly through trees."

Then we get the tale of the brave and bold crannogman, Howland:

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. “Did he have green dreams like Jojen?”
“No,” said Meera, “but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.”

Anyone know what "breathe mud" means? I'm guessing "fly through trees" and "run on leaves" probably means the same thing; they can both climb trees well. Which is interesting when you consider how the High Septon's feet are described.

[Ser Quork]

I was reading over the moment when Brienne meets the High Sparrow. Does anyone else find it odd that she never considers him old? In fact, the High Sparrow grabs one of the traces of the cart and begins pulling by himself. Seems odd for an old man to do that.

Also, I thought about Howland's noted ability to "weave words", and this line stood out to me:

Thoughts?

*edit*

I was re-reading some of Bran's chapters and came across this:

Then we get the tale of the brave and bold crannogman, Howland:

Anyone know what "breathe mud" means? I'm guessing "fly through trees" and "run on leaves" probably means the same thing; they can both climb trees well. Which is interesting when you consider how the High Septon's feet are described.

I think it's highly pertinent that Brienne doesn't consider the HS old, but Cersei does, especially as Brienne is younger than Cersei.

What the words 'breathe mud' mean literally, I don't know. Figuratively, I read that they are both expert passing unobserved (in this sense, in their native terrain), making them good at guerilla tactics (and why crannogmen are despised by more overt fighters).

Yes, that quote about calming them with a word stood out to me, too.

There is also this quote in the 'Cat of the Canals' chapter (not a High Septon quote) that caught my attention the other day (when thinking of possible clues in the text that might point to a later reveal):

Merry always claimed the mummers made much better priests than priests ...

[willofDorne]

I was reading over the moment when Brienne meets the High Sparrow. Does anyone else find it odd that she never considers him old? In fact, the High Sparrow grabs one of the traces of the cart and begins pulling by himself. Seems odd for an old man to do that.

I think it's highly pertinent that Brienne doesn't consider the HS old, but Cersei does, especially as Brienne is younger than Cersei.

Also interesting is that Cersei after her walk of shame considers herself much older. I don't have all the quotes, but most of them are

about her breasts.. anyways. Here's one.

She did not feel beautiful, though. She felt old, used, filthy, ugly. There were stretch marks on her belly from the children she had borne, and her breasts were not as firm as they had been when she was younger. Without a gown to hold them up, they sagged against her chest. I should not have done this. I was their queen, but now they’ve seen, they’ve seen, they’ve seen. I should never have let them see. Gowned and crowned, she was a queen. Naked, bloody, limping, she was only a woman, not so very different from their wives, more like their mothers than their pretty little maiden daughters. What have I done?

So Cersei is actually "old" too, at the end of the walk of shame, yet we know she's supposed to be in her late 30s.

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

I still like this idea, and I'm still not buying it. I would love for it to be true, but the problems have already been enumerated many times. The Septa/Mormont thing, by the way, does not back up but even hurts its credibility. It's good enough without bringing in rando BS. Mormont women just ARE NOT septas. Get that through your head, OP. This hurts your theory, does nothing to advance it at all. A mysterious septon wandering through the riverlands, gathering up peasants and knights, and taking spiritual control of KL is a good enough guerilla action without trying to smash a square peg into a circular hole. Ditch that part, and the rest becomes slightly more feasible.

[Faceless Void]

Also interesting is that Cersei after her walk of shame considers herself much older. I don't have all the quotes, but most of them are

about her tits.. anyways. Here's one.

So Cersei is actually "old" too, at the end of the walk of shame, yet we know she's supposed to be in her late 30s.

From what I can tell, the only person who notes the High Septon as "old" is Cersei, and her perspective seems pretty skewed. Good job highlighting the passage in which she even considers herself "old".

I still like this idea, and I'm still not buying it. I would love for it to be true, but the problems have already been enumerated many times. The Septa/Mormont thing, by the way, does not back up but even hurts its credibility. It's good enough without bringing in rando BS. Mormont women just ARE NOT septas. Get that through your head, OP. This hurts your theory, does nothing to advance it at all. A mysterious septon wandering through the riverlands, gathering up peasants and knights, and taking spiritual control of KL is a good enough guerilla action without trying to smash a square peg into a circular hole. Ditch that part, and the rest becomes slightly more feasible.

I don't think the OP specifically places them as Mormont women, but as she-bears. And, from what I can tell from reading all the descriptions they summed up, it's a pretty convincing argument.

From what I can recall, callaused hands on women is generally a trait of women warriors. The only women I can think of who share or possibly share that trait are the she-bears and the spearwives. And I suppose Asha, though she seems an exception among the Ironborn ranks.

I guess my point is, callaused hands on women generally connotes a warrior background. As such, the septas are probably warriors in disguise. With that in mind, what other women warriors could these septas be other than she-bears?

[Game Of Thrones]

I thought pobeb was the main proponent of HR=HS?

[Ziriath]

From what I can tell, the only person who notes the High Septon as "old" is Cersei, and her perspective seems pretty skewed. Good job highlighting the passage in which she even considers herself "old".

I don't think the OP specifically places them as Mormont women, but as she-bears. And, from what I can tell from reading all the descriptions they summed up, it's a pretty convincing argument.

From what I can recall, callaused hands on women is generally a trait of women warriors. The only women I can think of who share or possibly share that trait are the she-bears and the spearwives. And I suppose Asha, though she seems an exception among the Ironborn ranks.

I guess my point is, callaused hands on women generally connotes a warrior background. As such, the septas are probably warriors in disguise. With that in mind, what other women warriors could these septas be other than she-bears?

Actually for a woman (or man) in the world with not very developed technology, it's more common to have callused hands, than not. Exception (by women) is nobility, prostitutes, merchants etc., who do not have to do hard work and carry heavy things with their hands. Septas are something like nuns, so many of them have to do gardening, preparing wood for heating, and various other things around the monasteries or whatever. One does not have to use a sword or battleaxe to have callused hands.

[Faceless Void]

I thought pobeb was the main proponent of HR=HS?

From what I've read, Roadside Rose was the one who started the theory. I guess you could make the argument that pobeb added to the original theory, but from what I could tell he/she also did a lot of harm with how they handled casual criticisms.

Might be a good thing that pobeb has been absent in this iteration of the thread, imo. The discussion has been going smoothly and devoid of all that negativity that plagued its previous versions.

Actually for a woman (or man) in the world with not very developed technology, it's more common to have callused hands, than not. Exception (by women) is nobility, prostitutes, merchants etc., who do not have to do hard work and carry heavy things with their hands. Septas are something like nuns, so many of them have to do gardening, preparing wood for heating, and various other things around the monasteries or whatever. One does not have to use a sword or battleaxe to have callused hands.

I suppose that's true, but I think the point is in the noted descriptions. Maybe there are other septas or various other women who share that same trait, but never noted as such.

Also, there is interestingly symbolism with the she-bear carving, imo.

[Ziriath]

Maybe Cersei never got in contact with non-noble and working people before- I would not be surprised. Callused hands were mentioned at one of the girls so far (who is not at KL for sure, but freezing with Stannis' army), and Jorah (and maybe at other people I do not remember). We can expect this feature by the other Mormont women as well, but, again, it's nothing significant.

[Lady Woodland]

Great contributions to this thread!

The argument about Jonathan Pryce, which seems to keep cropping up whether it is his age or height, is no argument at all.

Thomas Sangster is 5'10. If we heard he was cast, everyone would be arguing he can't be Jojen because he's too tall.

Sean Bean is 55, played a man in his mid 30's. If we heard he was cast, everyone would be arguing he can't be Ned Stark because he's too old.

We don't know hold old Hodor is in the books, but Thomas Nairn is 38 and almost entirely grey. There, a real world scenario of someone in their 30's who is grey haired. Plus another case where the actor was cast, not his specific age or hair color.

Seems to me that the casting director and D&D are carefully choosing great actors for important roles, and can fudge the rest by omission. I doubt the show is going to start getting into exact ages or heights, so these arguments are worthless.

And I've said it already many times, our only view of how the HS looks is from Cersei. A shabby looking grey-haired man who is treating her harshly and in her opinion unfairly. She certainly isn't going to be kind while describing him. "He's an old meanie!" And it would not be the first time the appendixes state "facts" that we know are not facts.

this is quite true, I think I mentioned before I think the Beric character was aged up too. I had no idea Sean Bean was that old, still sexy amazing. I had no idea that Thomas Sangster was that tall, the actress playing Meera is pretty tall too I noticed so perhaps that aspect of their characters is not as important to the story as we think, if that's the case it actually sheds a little more light on the nature of HR's character as well, he might be a lot more invested in magic than has been brought up, perhaps that was his contribution at the ToJ.