High Septon = Howland Reed 3.0

[Ziriath]

Actually Ellie Kendrick (Meera) has 155 cm (that is quite the same as Dany), according to imdb. But I have noticed the Reeds are filmed from the angles, in which their height difference is not much apparent.

[Ziriath]

double post, sorry

[Faceless Void]

Maybe Cersei never got in contact with non-noble and working people before- I would not be surprised. Callused hands were mentioned at one of the girls so far (who is not at KL for sure, but freezing with Stannis' army), and Jorah (and maybe at other people I do not remember). We can expect this feature by the other Mormont women as well, but, again, it's nothing significant.

I'm not so sure. The OP shows that there's more than just similarly callaused hands, scowls, and homely features; there's also the she-bear carving. I went back through the previous threads, but didn't see anyone really attacking that part of the theory. Just curious to see the arguments against, as the idea that the septas features fit the different parts of the she-bear carving is fascinating to me.

Also, the OP makes a connection between the bears, bells, and sinner steps from Hotah's POV, to the septas, bells, and Cersei's walk. Am I alone in thinking this is a big clue in the septas being she-bears? What are the arguments against?

Again, I don't think the sparrows are all Northmen; I think there's probably some Northmen, but more Rivermen (as seen at Castle Darry). But the septa/she-bear thing seems pretty convincing, tbh.

[Ziriath]

I do not recall any Mormont woman being described as scowling and homely. Even Alysane with crooked teeth can look quite beautiful or at least nice though. But we do not know. Ugly and scowling is Jorah in ADWD, and we do not even know, who he has inherited his ugliness from. What has the axe woman carving to do with some bitter septas?

[Faceless Void]

What has the axe woman carving to do with some bitter septas?

Taken from the OP:

Dacey: “There’s a carving on our gate”

“A woman in a bearskin…”

Septa Unella ... with callused hands and homely, scowling features … would growl when she shook the queen awake.

“... with a child in one arm suckling at her breast…”

Septa Scolera ... a sour smell to her, like milk on the verge of going bad.

“... In the other hand she holds a battleaxe.”

Septa Moelle ... a wrinkled face as sharp as the blade of an axe.

That's what I was referring to. When you look at the descriptions side-by-side, it seems very suspicious.

[Ziriath]

But all three septas are old, according to Cersei's thoughts. Shouldn't two of them be girls? Septa Scolera looks salty Dornish (olive skin), which has been cut out of your quote.

There is one with white hair, but lady Maege has grey hair, if it did not change since she has been last seen by Cat.

[Faceless Void]

But all three septas are old, according to Cersei's thoughts. Shouldn't two of them be girls? Septa Scolera looks salty Dornish (olive skin), which has been cut out of your quote.

There is one with white hair, but lady Maege has grey hair, if it did not change since she has been last seen by Cat.

I think the OP theorizes they're just she-bears, not necessarily Maege and her daughters. I don't know if Scolera's skin color necessarily negates her as a she-bear, but it is a good point. However, I think the point is how similar the she-bear carving is in relation to these 3 specific septas. The woman in bear skin being Unella (scowling, growling). The woman breast feeding being Scolera (smelling of sour milk). The woman with the axe being Moelle (with her face as sharp as an axe).

It just seems to me, with all the other descriptions being considered, that there is something here.

[Ned Stark's Honor]

I think the fact that HBO hired Jonathan Pryce to play the High Septon confirms that this theory is NOT true. There is no way any audience could believe that this guy is the father of Jojen and Meera... he's just way too old.

Sorry, but it looks as though HR=HS is as dead as Ned.

[HoboJed]

I don't mean to insult, but I'm not sure what your point is. All the examples you listed had no bears. The parallel being employed are bears and their captives. So, of course it's selective; he's attempting to draw a parallel with that specific criteria in mind. And, judging from the selection and criteria, a parallel does exist

This is circular reasoning. You are effectively saying "In cases where A occurs, there is a clear pattern that A occurs." Whilst this is true, it is an essentially useless statement, as it can't be used to deduce anything.

[Ser Quork]

I think the fact that HBO hired Jonathan Pryce to play the High Septon confirms that this theory is NOT true. There is no way any audience could believe that this guy is the father of Jojen and Meera... he's just way too old.

Sorry, but it looks as though HR=HS is as dead as Ned.

This has been addressed a fair few times above, that the actors on the whole don't follow the books' descriptions. Jonathan Pryce is also 6 ft tall, yet the High Sparrow is short/small in the books. JP also has white hair and is too old to have a beard that's brown and grey as he does in the books. I think the casting just isn't relevant.

[willofDorne]

I think the fact that HBO hired Jonathan Pryce to play the High Septon confirms that this theory is NOT true. There is no way any audience could believe that this guy is the father of Jojen and Meera... he's just way too old.

Sorry, but it looks as though HR=HS is as dead as Ned.

Keep reading. I was a big detractor on the first iteration of this thread. I kept bringing up these most "obvious" points. But when you look deeper, it's quite startling. The age of all characters in Game of Thrones show tends to be higher than the book counterparts. Furthermore, the show has ommited Knight of the Laughing Tree, Tower of Joy, and that means it's possible they could just write Howland Reed out of the show. GRRM stated very recently that season 5 will go further away from the books than ever before.

What's our mantra?

"The show is NOT the books."

[Ser Quork]

Septa Scolera looks salty Dornish (olive skin), which has been cut out of your quote.

There is one with white hair, but lady Maege has grey hair, if it did not change since she has been last seen by Cat.

I rather like the HR = HS theory (although I won't be broken-hearted if it's not right either). I have a little more difficulty with the She-Bears being part of it, although I'm not ruling it out.

That said, I believe the OP postulates that Scolera may be Wylla (the woman who was Jon's wet-nurse (a Dornish woman, I believe), there to confirm parts of Jon's history. As I say, I'm not convinced of this part, just pointing it out.

[Ser Quork]

GRRM stated very recently that season 5 will go further away from the books than ever before.

What's our mantra?

"The show is NOT the books."

:agree:

[Ned Stark's Honor]

Keep reading. I was a big detractor on the first iteration of this thread. I kept bringing up these most "obvious" points. But when you look deeper, it's quite startling. The age of all characters in Game of Thrones show tends to be higher than the book counterparts. Furthermore, the show has ommited Knight of the Laughing Tree, Tower of Joy, and that means it's possible they could just write Howland Reed out of the show. GRRM stated very recently that season 5 will go further away from the books than ever before.

What's our mantra?

"The show is NOT the books."

I completely agree with what you're saying, and usually I do not let the show affect my reading of the book. In this instance, however, I think that HR=HS is too big of a plot twist to leave out of the show if that is in fact the truth. Therefore, if it is going to happen, no way do they cast an actor who looks 70 to play Meera and Jojen's father.

The show is not the books. I agree. Sometimes though, the show does eliminate popular fan theories (i.e., Jeyne Westerling being pregnant) and I think this is once such instance.

[Rhaenys' kitten]

I think the fact that HBO hired Jonathan Pryce to play the High Septon confirms that this theory is NOT true. There is no way any audience could believe that this guy is the father of Jojen and Meera... he's just way too old.

Sorry, but it looks as though HR=HS is as dead as Ned.

We don't actually know how old Howland Reed is. Just because he was picked on by squires doesn't mean he was young, crannogmen are small and look younger than they are.

[Faceless Void]

This is circular reasoning. You are effectively saying "In cases where A occurs, there is a clear pattern that A occurs." Whilst this is true, it is an essentially useless statement, as it can't be used to deduce anything.

No offense, but the example you're using is not a case of "circular reasoning". If it was, the argument would be "a is b, because b is a", not the example you're giving. In this case, it would look like "The septas (a) are she-bears (b.), because she-bears (b.) are septas (a)." But this certainly isn't the argument. The argument is "The septas (a) are she-bears (b.), because she-bears (b.) act as gaolers (c.)." The addition of the third variable (c.), is the inclusion of new information. (c.) could represent them being gaolers or having rough looks. You could also make the argument that "The septas (a) are she-bears (b.), because the septas (a) are described similarly to the she-bear carving (d)."

So, as you can see, your interpretation of circular reasoning is incorrect, and also misplaced.

[Faceless Void]

We don't actually know how old Howland Reed is. Just because he was picked on by squires doesn't mean he was young, crannogmen are small and look younger than they are.

We do know how old Howland is: He's in his 30's. He was at least 16 at the Harrenhal tourney, which was 19 years ago. So, at the very least, Howland is 35, with room upwards of 39.

That said, the show is not the books. There's been a myriad of differences between the books and show. Age is almost always misrepresented:

- Ned is in his 30s, but Sean Bean is in his 50's.

- Jon and Robb are both 15, but Kit is 27 and Richard is 28.

- Dany is 14, but Emilia is 27

Really, the show is not canon, so let's please keep the discussion strictly to the books.

[Jslay427]

Howland Reed will be introduced very soon IMO. Mayhaps in a similar way as this theory, but I would bet Theons manhood that the HS is NOT HR.

[Ser Quork]

Howland Reed will be introduced very soon IMO. Mayhaps in a similar way as this theory, but I would bet Theons manhood that the HS is NOT HR.

Is it yours to bet with? ;)

[HoboJed]

No offense, but the example you're using is not a case of "circular reasoning". If it was, the argument would be "a is b, because b is a", not the example you're giving. In this case, it would look like "The septas (a) are she-bears (b.), because she-bears (b.) are septas (a)." But this certainly isn't the argument. The argument is "The septas (a) are she-bears (b.), because she-bears (b.) act as gaolers (c.)." The addition of the third variable (c.), is the inclusion of new information. (c.) could represent them being gaolers or having rough looks. You could also make the argument that "The septas (a) are she-bears (b.), because the septas (a) are described similarly to the she-bear carving (d)."

So, as you can see, your interpretation of circular reasoning is incorrect, and also misplaced.

No... "if a, then b; b therefore a" is called affirming the consequent. It is a logical fallacy, and is not an example of circular reasoning. Circular reasoning is any form of reasoning where the conclusion is ultimately the same as one of its premises. It is logically correct, but still considered a fallacy as it doesn't prove anything.

In this case the argument was "judging from the selection and criteria, a parallel does exist". Of course a parallel exists if you've selected for it.

Imagine I select all the times a Stark has held someone captive. In those cases a Stark was always holding someone captive. Therefore the Septas are Starks!