Bakker XXIX: Erratics and Impossible Erections

[Sci-2]

Good point. The Inchies probably had a 3D Printer with some templates in there. But I wonder if they had Bakker threads 4000 years ago. As for Dragons and Chorae, I think it's a legitimate question. And if it's true that the two are not compatible then Bakker should provide an answer as to why given that other Tekne creations can wear it. Or at least give us more info on dragons so we can infer it ourselves. General point on where the series is heading, I don't know the answer but supposedly (according to Madness) in all these years of speculation no one has guessed where the story is going - not even in broad strokes. If true then the most likely reason is that Bakker has not foreshadowed his story properly. And as we know if it is only after that we understand what has come before then we understand nothing. Thus, all this wanking is just pointless.

Regarding Dragons and Chorae, I wonder if they require Cants of Compulsion to support the Consult. If the No-God isn't active, it's possible that they would end up leaving the battlefield unless they are enchanted.

Thus giving them Chorae would effectively be setting them free.

[Kalbear]

That doesn't make sense, since wutteat existed before chorae and before they had magic.

[Happy Ent]

Regarding Dragons and Chorae:

Do Chorae work for non-living or non-souled things? (Example: tie a Chorae to a tree, blast it with a Falling Sun. Does the tree still stand?) I don’t know the answer to this. We can see that Cnaiür keeps his clothes on, but that could be rationalised differently.

Do Dragons have souls? Are the mechanical? (I don’t know the answer to these questions.)

[Curethan]

I believe Wutteat is the only ensouled dragon - Mog can puppet the others.

Sranc carry chorae, but whether they work defensively for them is debatable. Not sure if there is an example in TJE.

When humans use them, they have to be grasping the chorae for it to be effective. I'm not sure how dragons could really hold them. Would piercings work?

It's a pretty silly question to me.

They don't use them. There are a thousand ways to rationalize the why of it.

As noted above, I don't think wracu really need chorae defensively anyway.

[Wise Fool]

What? If Wracu had Chorae, they'd be basically invincible.

[Curethan]

Even without sorcery, Nau'Cayuti and Ciogli took down dragons. This has already been mentioned already, but I'll rehash it.

From the fight against Wutteat we can infer that the gnosis isn't particularly good for killing dragons anyway, Akka drops a spike designed to smash fortress walls and it just knocks him over.

We know from Shimeh that Akka can reduce a whole unit of soldiers to burning chunks in a heartbeat but he doesn't even try that low level shit on Wutteat ... my D&D conclusion is that wracu have high magic resistance.

Titirga is proof that indirect application of sorcery is quite enough to kill even seemingly unbeatable opponents.

Which is probably why the nonmen could beat them with flying chariots ... outmaneuver with sorcery and poke 'em with nimil.

I don't think the Ordeal would fare too well though - they get smashed hard by Bashrag iirc.

Men seem generally too weak to fight the weapon races like nonmen.

Kellhus might need the nonmen warriors to fight wracu, if the consult have them.

[Diziet]

When humans use them, they have to be grasping the chorae for it to be effective. I'm not sure how dragons could really hold them. Would piercings work?

It's a pretty silly question to me.

They don't use them. There are a thousand ways to rationalize the why of it.

They could attach it to their bodies the way they did on the Carapace, there are many ways they can keep the Chorae touching a dragons' skin. Heck, even glue would work.

But it's a bit ironic of you to ask how the Inchoroi could have attached the Chorae to a dragon's body and then say that the question of why the dragons weren't given Chorae in the first place is a silly one.

[Curethan]

But it's a bit ironic of you to ask how the Inchoroi could have attached the Chorae to a dragon's body and then say that the question of why the dragons weren't given Chorae in the first place is a silly one.

I was addressing the tangential issue of the effectiveness of chorae with non-souled critters.

I only say the question is silly because there are so many plausible reasons one could invent to explain the fact that they don't.

None of which matter much, because

A. there are no real hints or clues to test your reasoning. It remains pure speculation.

B. the wracu probably wouldn't really gain much from a chorae's protection even if if did work. Chorae are most effective as weapons against sorcerers rather than defence.

(ironically, I think it would be a good question to ask Bakker directly ;) )

[SilentRoamer]

Point B seems to be fairly important Curethan.

I mean do you want to use your Chorae defensively or do you use it to destroy the oppositions most offensive capabilities?

As a general I would personally use the Chorae to destroy the enemy sorcerers, then Chorae are no longer needed for defensive capability. Offensive action beats defensive action in this circumstance.

Also we really have no idea about the Wracu, maybe it is some form of sorcery that allows them to fly (ensouled being or not) and Chorae would negate this ability, same with their offensive "breath" capabilities - as Curethan points out the textual references are sparse and we can literally invent any magical faux pas at this point.

[sologdin]

yeah, best reason that someone doesn't use aporetics is that it will kill they ass.

could also be that they have an alien aesthetics and don't like it. or that triage requires placement of aporetics on more vulnerable pieces.

[Maithanet]

Sranc carry chorae, but whether they work defensively for them is debatable. Not sure if there is an example in TJE.

In both TJE and WLW we see Bashrag that have chorae and are therefore immune to magic. This indicates that you do not need a soul to gain the protection of a chorae. But, it doesn't in any way answer the question of whether dragons can use chorae.

[Diziet]

Well, of the "thousands of plausible answers" as to why Wracu can't use Chorae we've heard three explanations so far, none of them plausible:

1. They were too stupid that it didn't occur to them to give the dragons Chorae.
2. Maybe a dragon can't "hold" a chorae.
3. They probably use magic to fly.

I don't think point three is likely either because the Inchoroi showed no understanding of magic upon arrival, and it's far fetched to think that they built the dragons, gave them souls, made sure that they're of the Few, taught them how to fly using magic, and then gave them wings for no reason.

[Happy Ent]

I like the idea that magic doesn’t really harm them that much anyway. Do we have enough evidence for that?

[Curethan]

Oh dear, my father must have warned me a million times not to use hyperbole.

Here's some more;

- dragons don't derive significant advantage from chorae.

- dragons are too arrogant to use chorae

- chorae can't transmit their protective field through whatever it is that dragons are made from

- the tekne is a different type of magic from sorcery (differing in method and principle as much as the dunyain's OP history-reading abilities, soul binding and mind melding or the White-luck and other divine powers), but still gets fucked up by chorae when it comes to endowing flight and fire breathing.

...

We can keep going, but it doesn't lead anywhere interesting because although some of these appeal might to certain readers, the same explanations seem unlikely to most others. Some people won't be happy with any explanation unless it comes from the author or themselves. I'm not sure where you expect anyone to draw conclusive arguments from.

I like the idea that magic doesn’t really harm them that much anyway. Do we have enough evidence for that?

Just the battle with Wutteat in WLW. Consider that Akka has previous defeated a powerful Ciphrang but even allied with one of the greatest quya of far antiquity he can't do much against a blind dragon with the Gnosis. That same dragon got his butt kicked and his neck broken by Ciogli, a nonman warrior-hero (admittedly some kind of giant) without sorcery.

[Anatúrinbor]

Seems plausible,

Dragons! Monstrosities literally bred to battle and destroy the ancient Quya.

So much of the Gnostic armoury was devoted to sorcerous duals or the mass killing of mundane Men...

What did Seswatha use?

They were specifically made to be battle the Quya. Achamian himself seems to realize that the regular Gnostic cants are not going to be effective. So what did Seswatha use?

[SilentRoamer]

Just the battle with Wutteat in WLW. Consider that Akka has previous defeated a powerful Ciphrang but even allied with one of the greatest quya of far antiquity he can't do much against a blind dragon with the Gnosis. That same dragon got his butt kicked and his neck broken by Ciogli, a nonman warrior-hero (admittedly some kind of giant) without sorcery.

Curethan I have seen you over exaggerate literally a million times - you should really have learnt your lesson a thousand times over by now!

Yeah nonmen are described as being able to grow and grow with heroic deeds so Ciogli the Mountain could have kept growing but I think this is more symbolic than literal.

I have discussed this on a podcast with some of the TSA folks. We seemed to come to the conclusion it was unlikely that Ciogli really defeated Wutteat with just his hands. We theorized some physical attribute emphases - like Inrau with his super speed. Imagine the physical strength to break something like Wutteat neck - not sure that would be possible without something more than we have seen from the Nonmen.

Could be the case though!

Wutteat is SO FUCKING AWESOME!

[Rhom]

Curethan I have seen you over exaggerate literally a million times - you should really have learnt your lesson a thousand times over by now!

Yeah nonmen are described as being able to grow and grow with heroic deeds so Ciogli the Mountain could have kept growing but I think this is more symbolic than literal.

I have discussed this on a podcast with some of the TSA folks. We seemed to come to the conclusion it was unlikely that Ciogli really defeated Wutteat with just his hands. We theorized some physical attribute emphases - like Inrau with his super speed. Imagine the physical strength to break something like Wutteat neck - not sure that would be possible without something more than we have seen from the Nonmen.

Could be the case though!

Wutteat is SO FUCKING AWESOME!

What do you mean symbolic?

IS NOT TRUTH INFINITE?

[Diziet]

What do you mean symbolic?

IS NOT TRUTH INFINITE?

IIRC, this was only mentioned in The Four Revelation of Cinliajin, not in the main series. And in my experience, any time a fantasy author says that some species "keeps growing" physically that info can be discarded outright.

They were specifically made to be battle the Quya. Achamian himself seems to realize that the regular Gnostic cants are not going to be effective. So what did Seswatha use?

It could have been something mundane.

But this reminds me of this from Serwa,

I have battled Shauriatas in my Dreams. I have been tortured by Mekeritrig. Chased across Eärwa by Aurax and Aurang.

Did she make this up? Seswatha battled Shauriatas directly? Did Shae even show himself in the first Apocalypse given what we saw in the preview chapter of TUC? And he was chased by Aurang and Aurax??

[Sci-2]

Seems plausible,

They were specifically made to be battle the Quya. Achamian himself seems to realize that the regular Gnostic cants are not going to be effective. So what did Seswatha use?

According to the Sagas he clawed them with sorcerous light.

The exact wording is in TTT, will try to find later...

I like this idea that Dragons are largely immune to magic.

[Sci-2]

The Aporetics did some data-mining of Wracu DNA in order to create Chorae, obviously.

The paradox was embedded in the flesh of Wutteat? Heh, that would make the novels even crazier.

It's also unclear how a dragon can be made resistant to sorcery - some kind of bio-electric field changes the onta around it? Didn't Cleric's magic cut through solid stone with ease?

Still, that WLW passage about Dragons being made to kill Quya is a good find.