Heresy 134 The Faceless Men

[Phillip Frye]

[W]e all agree that GRRM does not include meaningless crap in his books . . .

I don't know about that. What do you think, alienarea?

I am thinking about Meereen, the upcoming Dothraki travelogue, Quentyn Martell . . . many things, in fact.

Do you think that you could write an eleven book epic fantasy series without including some extraneous material?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think that Arya will be able to assume the identity of a young man (or old woman). She will become like the Stranger, neither male nor female.

As for stubble, Varys doesn't seem to have any trouble producing stubble, and he is now (allegedly) producing as much testosterone as Arya, having been relieved of root and stem.

The Stranger she may be. Very likely I think.

Will she return to Westeros as a dude is what I am just now not sure about.

Then there is Alleras as another "dude looks like a lady". She is a few years older than Arya and still passes as a guy without being faceless.

[ARYa_Nym]

Sarella passed for a random guy who she made up which allows her more freedom than taking the place of a specific one that people know and has requirements that are needed to fulfill. I imagine her as a tall lanky build type and not petite like Arya and her speaking voice may not be like Arya's. Arya has a child's voice according to Sam so I'm guessing it's high. We also know that her body post puberty has the ability to pass and we can't say that Arya's would during or after puberty. Although I doubted it before I realize it's not impossible. GRRM could make Arya full figured like her mother. Speaking of full figured Visenya was mentioned earlier who was voluptuous. I had meant to say that Arya mentioning Visenya is only a show thing but I forgot.

Anyways, there was a theory that Arya would infiltrate the NW as Dareon nevermind the fact that Dareon's face is gone to the eels. How would she have Dareon's honey poured over thunder voice? FM magic is not said to extend that far. She doesn't have his body type even if she was given his face.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Good point, initially I got the impression that she acted on her own self interest. Now that Artemis post I linked previously has me obsessed with moon checking all of Arya's actions to see how they fit in with the synced moon routine of her always returning from her duty as Cat of the Canals to the House of Black and White to be no one again during new moons. The inconclusive results regarding Mercy is that it seems she killed Raf during a full moon. The only mention is that she awoke from a wolf dream and during it the moon was full.

Her true name was Mercedene, but Mercy was all anyone ever called her

Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what shed dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran.

She had fastened the shutters back so the morning sun might wake her.

Aside from her routine as Cat of the Canals I don't see any consistent moon clues.

Izembaro may be a long term gig. Or not. I did not think about returning to the HoB&W on schedule as Cat of the Canals did. The statement that she will miss Mercy seems like she will not have the face anymore, and what better way than to return to home base.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Right. I am not saying Arya will take on the appearance of a well known character. I do think she can pass as a guy/boy if she needs to do so. If the FM glamour can give her the physical attributes of the Ugly Girl, then why not a prominent Adam's apple?

[ARYa_Nym]

Right. I am not saying Arya will take on the appearance of a well known character. I do think she can pass as a guy/boy if she needs to do so. If the FM glamour can give her the physical attributes of the Ugly Girl, then why not a prominent Adam's apple?

They might not even be able to do that since it's lower than the face. The Ugly little girl-her eyes, nose, and jaw looked broken. One side of her face was caved in and her cheekbone shattered and her teeth were missing. All of that is concentrated only in the facial area.

Jaqen-His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer, his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before, and his hair changed from long hair to black curls. So the same thing.

[redrose]

Do any of you know who of those 11 - 13 is in charge? I thought it was the KM but then the man with the plague face tell the ugly girl who i s to be her first kill. He knows a lot about Arya and say "you have the eyes of a wolf and a taste for blood" and Arya thinks "He means to send me away"

I also wonder about the man The blind girl found dead at the feet of the Stranger. She felt his face "Curly hair, and thick. A handsome face unlined. He was young." And so she found Westerosi coins in his clothes. Arya was blind then but could she later see his face on the wall and then she will see it is someone she knows? I wish I knew who he was

Is the KoM in charge of training and plague face in charge of dealing out the contracts? Not sure we know anything about the structure of the organisation. How are they contacted ? Who makes the decision on whether to accept the contract, who makes the decisions on what the contract is worth? I think there are bigger links to the iron bank of Bravos than we know of yet?!?!?

[redrose]

Just as an idle question of arithmetic; 11 x assassins gathered in the House of Many Faces plus our favourite assassin getting his feet under the table at the Citadel, plus Varys makes 13

This is indeed intriguing. I hadn't made the connection to the 13LC but I would also add the possibility, if 13 is indeed the magic number that our favourite assassin may well know he is not returning from the mission which is why he gave the coin to Arya.

[Phillip Frye]

I searched all the Arya Clash of Kings chapters this morning and found no evidence of Rorge and Biter fearing Jaqen before the fire.

Pretty sure it was more subtle than just noting they were scared. If I remember correctly, I think that they sat far away from the Lorathi while chained in the caged wagon together. I would recheck Arya I or II in A Clash of Kings. Anyone willing to help out here?

[Phillip Frye]

I refer to the answer I gave before :cool4:

To summarize: Yoren visits Deaddard, the Hand of King Robert I, who gives him leave to scoop up any criminal he can obtain, including three people in the Black Cells, to wit: Rorge, Biter, and some Lorathi sellsword. Yoren puts off taking these three until the end of his stay.

During the Fall of Deaddard, Syrio Forel is disarmed and captured by Meryn Trant and tossed in the Black Cells. During the brief period of light, Rorge and Biter observe his placement there. Somehow, Syrio then kills the Lorathi sellsword. Rorge and Biter would presumably hear his screams. Later, they see the sellsword (presumed dead) alive, but no sign of the new guy. They freak out.

Rugen (Varys), who is now spending oodles of time in the Black Cells visiting his new best buddy, Deaddard, covers up the murder of the Lorathi sellsword (or maybe aids in his elimination) & removes the body. He then tells Longwaters to shut his mouth (which explains some of his nervousness when Jaime Lannister questions him).

Yoren then takes Rorge, Biter, and the reincarnated Lorathi sellsword with him, along with various other smuggled people, when Yoren leave King's Landing.

Did I get your theory right?

[Toccs]

Pretty sure it was more subtle than just noting they were scared. If I remember correctly, I think that they sat far away from the Lorathi while chained in the caged wagon together. I would recheck Arya I or II in A Clash of Kings. Anyone willing to help out here?

I remember having the impression that they (maybe not feared) were wary of him. Apart from the way they sat as far away from him as possible in the cage, there is the way that after their escape they followed him to Harrenhall. Also let's not forget how Jaqen pressured them into helping break the prisoners out.

Rorge and Biter have been partners for a long time and are hardened criminals who are not nice people and are dangerous. Yet they

A - Gave him dominion over their confined space

B - Followed him after escaping instead of striking out on their own

C - Despite protesting that they had a good thing going with the Brave Companions and Harrenhall, they broke the Northeners out because Jaqen "asked" them to.

Jaqen had clearly asserted dominance over them somehow.

[alienarea]

I don't know about that. What do you think, alienarea?

I am thinking about Meereen, the upcoming Dothraki travelogue, Quentyn Martell . . . many things, in fact.

Do you think that you could write an eleven book epic fantasy series without including some extraneous material?

I'm not sure he'll be done in eleven and yes, lots of things in it are fun but pointless. Looking forward to the Ghost chapters. Wooof.

[ARYa_Nym]

About beings that live unnaturally long...

When Sallador was talking to Davos about Mel:

...perhaps we will sail to Braavos and hire a Faceless Man to do this thing yes?

I thought the Arya/Mel stuff on the show was nonsense especially since they have her killing people she doesn't in the books but maybe a FM will go after her. Then again maybe not. Tyrion has a line about the FM coming to kill him and I highly doubt it.

Still this line talks about a hire which implies that the FM might not take it upon themselves to get rid of her out of distaste for creatures like her unlike whatever they have Jaqen doing as the Alchemist.

[Black Crow]

... it brings to mind the "gold for iron" and the iron key at the Citadel. What are these FM really about. The peaceful assisted suicide at the HoB&W seems like a front for the spying + assassination side of the organization. Or at least a time honored tradition with a new spin on profit and power.

I think the whole thrust of Butterbumps' OP, which no-one has challenged, is that although astonishingly good at it the Faceless Men are not mere assassins.

Spies certainly, which is what a lot of Arya's training has been about, but so far as we've seen the information gathered is not for sale but for their own purposes. They appear not to be mercenaries but to have an agenda of their own masked by the assassination business - and the closer we look at them the closer the parallels to Varys and the stronger the suspicion that Varys is himself a Faceless Man

[Black Crow]

To summarize: Yoren visits Deaddard, the Hand of King Robert I, who gives him leave to scoop up any criminal he can obtain, including three people in the Black Cells, to wit: Rorge, Biter, and some Lorathi sellsword. Yoren puts off taking these three until the end of his stay.

During the Fall of Deaddard, Syrio Forel is disarmed and captured by Meryn Trant and tossed in the Black Cells. During the brief period of light, Rorge and Biter observe his placement there. Somehow, Syrio then kills the Lorathi sellsword. Rorge and Biter would presumably hear his screams. Later, they see the sellsword (presumed dead) alive, but no sign of the new guy. They freak out.

Rugen (Varys), who is now spending oodles of time in the Black Cells visiting his new best buddy, Deaddard, covers up the murder of the Lorathi sellsword (or maybe aids in his elimination) & removes the body. He then tells Longwaters to shut his mouth (which explains some of his nervousness when Jaime Lannister questions him).

Yoren then takes Rorge, Biter, and the reincarnated Lorathi sellsword with him, along with various other smuggled people, when Yoren leave King's Landing.

Did I get your theory right?

Not quite. I'm suggesting that Yoren "recruited" the common criminals but but Varys/Rugen produced the paperwork to get Jaqen H'gar [and the other two as cover] out of the city.

[Black Crow]

Good point, initially I got the impression that she acted on her own self interest. Now that Artemis post I linked previously has me obsessed with moon checking all of Arya's actions to see how they fit in with the synced moon routine of her always returning from her duty as Cat of the Canals to the House of Black and White to be no one again during new moons. The inconclusive results regarding Mercy is that it seems she killed Raf during a full moon. The only mention is that she awoke from a wolf dream and during it the moon was full...

"Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran."

I'd be inclined to disagree here; the quoted part is clearly the aftermath of a wolf dream and not connected with her waking actions in Braavos. However cross-referencing it against Jon's wolf dreams there does seem to be a moon connection which is consistent with the old belief in our world that lycanthropy and the moon are connected, ie; as I've suggested before, the Stark kids are essentially werewolves.

[butterbumps!]

Great essays and very interesting ideas in the comments as well...

I'm not an "heretic" myself but I am very interested in this particular topic. For the most part, I agree with the analysis - especially the first part. But I want to raise two points of "objection":

1. The doom of Valyria

There are two ways to view KOM's line “He would bring the gift to them as well... but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one.”

One interpretation is the Doom and another is the story about giving the "gift" to the master and the "birth" of the second FM.

One reason to tend towards the second is that I don't think we have been given much ground to believe that the FM's magic is anything close to the CotF's. The other is that an action such as the Doom is not very much in line with the FM's filosophy; as far as we've seen, the "gift" is given selectively whereas the doom of Valyria is something so massive and leveling that I can't see how it can fit into the many-faced God's criteria.

...................

It's also important IMO that they are notably consistent in this concept of gods, as related to their views on other gods: their "own" god does not judge, but other gods do... but how? It seems to me that, in the same way they see themselves as the many-faced god's instruments (and therefore they do not judge) they might also see those who come to pray for giving the gift to an other as instruments of the other gods, the ones who do judge. So, it's actually the humans who make the judgement on whether someone deserves to die, again leading backwards to some god's assessment.

Hey Shadowcat, what a nice surprise to see you.

The idea that the Faceless brought the Doom (and that this is what the KM is referring to in that passage) is also something I'm not convinced of. I like the interpretation that the referent is the story of how the second Faceless was created; that seems consistent. I tend to agree that a massive explosion/ volcano eruption/ total destruction is not really in line with their philosophy, or at least, in terms of what we've been given so far, it seems a bit hard to reconcile. If they have any responsibility for the Doom, I lean toward the idea that the explosions were a consequence (perhaps unintended) of something else, like bringing the Gift to a number of slaves, the result of which is that the mines were not tended properly and went off or something.

I like your meta reading as well. By chance, have you ever read the Sandman series? Despite the fact that the Faceless speak of Death as a "god," something about their philosophy reminds me of the way Death (and a few other phenomena, like "Dream," "Destiny" etc) are called "the Endless" in the aforementioned Gaiman series. That is, they aren't really "gods," but rather entities that "just are," are referred to by many names, and who exist along side other gods. Strictly speaking, I wonder if the Faceless are seeing Death more in that vein, and less like other gods, despite using a deified terminology.

That aside, you brought up something that segues into a question I have about the Faceless. I was getting the impression that one's personal beliefs reified the other gods, which seems similar to what you're saying. If someone has faith in the Seven, then it's those gods who judge him and the like. I'm curious if there's an implication about the afterlife if this is the way of it. The Faceless themselves seem to believe that upon their own deaths at least, there is no encore. They don't worship other gods, so an afterlife is beside the point.

But does someone's having faith in another religion mean that after death, they are brought to that religion's afterlife? If so, is Death truly a "Gift," in light of how a lot of these religions have formulated constructs of hell? If a person's faith actualizes what occurs after death according to their personal religion, I think this might become problematic philosophy-wise for the Faceless. If having a certain belief means that one may end up in a permanent afterlife of suffering, then the nature of death's being a "Gift" can be called into question. If the Faceless don't believe in this sort of faith-relativism of the afterlife, then it tacitly means that they don't actually believe in the realness of these other gods. This is one area I'm hoping for more elaboration in future books, because I think it may problematize the Faceless a little.

I think that you are over-thinking this… Arya had no idea who the Faceless Men were at this point, so citing 'The Red God' as opposed to "The Gods" did not really hide anything from her.

I'm not sure what you believe I'm "over-thinking." Simply put, the Red god does not appear to be a face of Death, so owing this god 3 deaths seems out of line with the Faceless' philosophy.

It appears that the Faceless always hide the fact that they are Faceless. They do not seem to expose themselves as Faceless outside of the temple. Ergo, it seems entirely reasonable that Jaqen's appeal to the Red God as opposed to "Death" is in line with what appears to be their practice of not calling attention to the fact that they worship Death and are therefore Faceless. Even though Arya would have no idea of the Faceless at the time, it's one of those things that you just don't casually expose even when you think you're alone. And even trees have eyes. When you tell a lie (i.e. pretend you're not a Faceless Man), you never drop the truth, especially when you think you're alone. It's kind of like spying/ lying 101.

Really enjoy the FM a lot and this has been fun to read. With regard to the discussion of Jaqan being in the black cells, what he has been up to, whether he was on a mission, citing R'hollor and so forth, would anyone give any credence to the idea that Martin had simply not developed the philosophy and training of the FM thoroughly enough at this point to make sure that all of Jaqan's behaviour matched up exactly with Arya's later training?

I suspect that there's truth to this. Compared to some of the other major religions we see, we have a lot less wrt the Faceless in general. I'm keeping an open mind about if Jaqen's behavior and the KM's stated philosophy converge more down the road. In particular, I'm curious to see how the Faceless combat certain magical practices that appear to go against their philosophy, such as binding people's wills (like straight-forward slavery, dragon-induced slavery, and possibly the Others-wight thrallship), as well as issues like immortality seeking. Slavery and immortality would seem to be the major issues the Faceless stand against, and I wonder if dealing with these have exceptional circumstances that deviate a little bit from what we know of their overall philosophy.

Very nice essay Butterbumps!

I used to think the Faceless men were just Assasins but this essay made me rethink them.

I also like your idea of the hood and it's subversion of warging.

I also wonder how the faceless men obtained this ability, considering they were freed slaves from Valyria one would expect that if they were to do any magic it would derive from Valyria's type pf magic whic is blood and fire.

oh yay! lol, I feel like I'm making progress in my "Faceless Anti-Defamation Campaign."

It looks like the Faceless' magic is rooted in blood, certainly-- it's the mixture of Arya's blood into the leather hood that seems to activate the transformation. In general, I think blood tends to be the key factor in all the magics we've seen. I'm not sure about fire wrt the Faceless. Even in terms of the Valyrians, I got the impression that fire might not be the channel for magical activation, but rather the result-- that dragon horn says "blood for fire," so blood might be the root payment for the Valyrians' power.

My overall working theory is that blood is the root of all (human-wielded) magic, and that the elemental character this takes varies. There's something a little weirwoodish about the Faceless' magic, I think. It strongly reminds me of both seeing through the trees (of course, without a full network), and some type of skin-changing more than the sorceries we've seen of Valyria. But I wonder if the Faceless have more magical features that we haven't seen yet.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

That aside, you brought up something that segues into a question I have about the Faceless. I was getting the impression that one's personal beliefs reified the other gods, which seems similar to what you're saying. If someone has faith in the Seven, then it's those gods who judge him and the like. I'm curious if there's an implication about the afterlife if this is the way of it. The Faceless themselves seem to believe that upon their own deaths at least, there is no encore. They don't worship other gods, so an afterlife is beside the point.

But does someone's having faith in another religion mean that after death, they are brought to that religion's afterlife? If so, is Death truly a "Gift," in light of how a lot of these religions have formulated constructs of hell? If a person's faith actualizes what occurs after death according to their personal religion, I think this might become problematic philosophy-wise for the Faceless. If having a certain belief means that one may end up in a permanent afterlife of suffering, then the nature of death's being a "Gift" can be called into question. If the Faceless don't believe in this sort of faith-relativism of the afterlife, then it tacitly means that they don't actually believe in the realness of these other gods. This is one area I'm hoping for more elaboration in future books, because I think it may problematize the Faceless a little.

Good question...

The really great thing with the down-to-top (men --> gods) approach is that gods can be real and not real in the same time, like Schrödinger's cat; and better yet, them being an abstract concept instead of macroscopic objects overcomes the paradox defect.

If gods (magic aside) are like Varys' riddle, exist because men believe in them, they may not be "real" in terms of respective doctrines matching "factual reality" but the consequences of their existence are very much real: their believers, either consciously or as "public opinion pressure" serve as enforcers of their will. Like per Varys concept of power, that is no more than a shadow on the wall but its effects are painfully real.

The KOM makes reference to other gods' judgement in past tense, implying that gods do the judgement while the person is still alive:

That gave her pause. “Have the gods judged him?”

“Some gods, mayhaps. What are gods for if not to sit in judgment over men? The Many-Faced God does not weigh men’s souls, however. He gives his gift to the best of men as he gives it to the worst. Elsewise the good would live forever.”

This would mean that they don't need to subscribe to other religions' ideas of afterlife. The gods that sit in judgement, however, are real because it's their respective religion's notions of right and wrong, moral and immoral, fair and unfair, deserving and undeserving that drive the actions of the faithful who deems someone worthy of the sacrifice required for the gift.

[ARYa_Nym]

On judging I had mentioned this in the death thread about Arya.

Arya can compare to Lilith with her snake and mud references. & she picks an apple and throws it at Gendry. She didn't want to share the apple with him unlike Eve and one time she wanted to look down on Gendry instead of up which is very Lilith like.

Anyways...

In English, Death is often given the name Grim Reaper and, from the 15th century onwards, came to be shown as a skeletal figure carrying a large scythe and clothed in a black cloak with a hood. It is also given the name of the Angel of Death (Malach HaMavet) or Devil of Death or the angel of dark and light stemming from the Bible and Talmudic lore. The Bible itself does not refer to "The Angel of Death"; there is, however, a reference to "Abaddon" (The Destroyer), an Angel who is known as the "The Angel of the Abyss". In Talmudic lore, he is characterized as archangel Samael.^[1]

In Talmudic lore he is Samael.

Lilith rejects Adam and later gets with Samael.

Samael (Hebrew: סמאל‎) (also Sammael, Samil, and more obscurely, Malkira meaning "king of the wicked") is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is accuser, seducer and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil. It is said that he was the guardian angel of Esau and a patron of the Roman empire.

He is considered in legend a member of the heavenly host (with often grim and destructive duties), in the New Testament named Satan and the chief of the evil spirits. One of Samael's greatest roles in Jewish lore is that of the angel of death. He remains one of the Lord's servants even though he appears to want men to do evil. As a good angel, Samael resides in the seventh heaven, although he is declared to be the chief angel of the fifth heaven.

I mentioned that he has both a light and dark side. It was stated that the angel of death was sometimes referred to the angel of light and dark. & I brought up how the wiki said that when the angel of death is given permission to destroy he makes no distinction b/w good and evil which is like the FM not presuming to judge.

[Frey family reunion]

I'm not sure what you believe I'm "over-thinking." Simply put, the Red god does not appear to be a face of Death, so owing this god 3 deaths seems out of line with the Faceless' philosophy.

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but I am curious if there is anything in particular that makes you think that Jaqen doesn't believe that the Red God is one of the many faces of the FM's god?