Jojen Reed's Death- Chekhov's Gun

[TyrionsFlagon]

I remember reading this post about Stannis faking his own death in the released Theon chapter. Stannis tells Justin Massey to hire sellswords regardless of any rumors he hears of Stannis being killed. The idea being (Chekhov's Gun) that why would GRRM have Stannis mention faking his own death unless Stannis actually does fake his own death.

Thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100019-stannis-faking-his-death-chekhovs-gun/?hl=chekhov%26%2339%3Bs

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun

I've never bought into the Jojen paste theory, and I'm wondering if Chekhov's Gun could be used to persuade others. I feel as though Jojen mentions his own death more than once. The quote being, "This is not the day I die." (I hope I'm not confusing the show with the book). GRRM has made a point to have Jojen mention the day he dies several times, and I can't help but feel as though Jojen's death will be told first hand, that we'll see it happen through someone's eyes in real time. It feels as though GRRM has built up to Jojen's death, so I just can't imagine it being anti-climactic and leaving us guessing whether he's actually dead or not.

Thoughts?

[Sans A Stark in Winterfell]

Sorry I don't have the book on hand but, can you pull up the scenes he says he won't die today. I feel like he knows where and how he'll die but not when...I think the context surrounding him saying that should be drastically different than when he dies.

Otherwise,I'd normally say that since he died in the show his purpose was to get Bran to BR, and that's why they killed him but D&D have killed a handful of characters that are actually alive in the books.

[shastada]

GRRM doesn't adhere to Chekhov's Gun AT ALL! The guy just keeps writing and by the end I think we'll see that much of it was completely pointless to the overall story.

[TyrionsFlagon]

Sorry I don't have the book on hand but, can you pull up the scenes he says he won't die today. I feel like he knows where and how he'll die but not when

Soon after meeting Jojen and Meera, Bran is having more dreams. Jojen keeps pushing the issue and inquiring about Bran's dreams. Bran doesn't want to talk about it, becomes more and more frustrated, and Summer eventually attacks.

From Clash

The direwolf lunged again, and again Meera's spear darted out. Summer dodged, circled back. The bushes rustled, and a lean black shape came padding from behind the weirwood, teeth bared. The scent was strong; his brother had smelled his rage. Bran felt hairs rise on the back of his neck. Meera stood beside her brother, with wolves to either side. "Bran, call them off."

"I can't!"

"Jojen, up the tree."

"There's no need. Today is not the day I die"

From Dance

"Jojen, you have to eat," Meera told him.

"Later, I just want to rest." Jojen smiled a wan smile. "This is no the day I die, sister. I promise you."

Also from the wiki.

Jojen falls into a resigned depression, wanting to go home to Greywater Watch. Meera implies while speaking with Bran that Jojen has had a greendream of his fate when he goes to Greywater Watch, and that the outcome is not good.^[17]

[TyrionsFlagon]

GRRM doesn't adhere to Chekhov's Gun AT ALL! The guy just keeps writing and by the end I think we'll see that much of it was completely pointless to the overall story.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the true meaning of Chekhov's Gun, but aren't there many times where George gives a clue or shows a sign early on and then later it becomes relevant?

Lady Olenna fixing Sansa's hair.

Greywind growling at the Freys prior to the Red Wedding.

Countless prophecies that seem as jargon the first time around.

[Sword of the Morgan]

GRRM doesn't adhere to Chekhov's Gun AT ALL! The guy just keeps writing and by the end I think we'll see that much of it was completely pointless to the overall story.

I hope that's not true.

[shastada]

The theory says that EVERYTHING that is mentioned is relevant in some way. There are many many things GRRM has mentioned that is completely irrelevant including details of random knights and houses that has zippo to do with the story other than world building. The Chekhov's Gun theory would say all that is irrelevant and should be removed.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the true meaning of Chekhov's Gun, but aren't there many times where George gives a clue or shows a sign early on and then later it becomes relevant?

Lady Olenna fixing Sansa's hair.

Greywind growling at the Freys prior to the Red Wedding.

Countless prophecies that seem as jargon the first time around.

[Roose on the Loose]

When GRRM started this project, he thought 3 fat books would be enough text to tell the whole story. After 5 such books, the number of loose ends is growing, not shrinking. To wrap it up in 7, he's gonna have to prune some hedges.

So, I expect many details that were supposed to tie back in with the larger story will dangle forever just because all things must end.

[Blutrabe]

GRRM won't leave any plot threads hanging just because he is set on finishing the series in seven books. If he needs more space to finish the story, he'll write more books.

[gogorath]

The theory says that EVERYTHING that is mentioned is relevant in some way. There are many many things GRRM has mentioned that is completely irrelevant including details of random knights and houses that has zippo to do with the story other than world building. The Chekhov's Gun theory would say all that is irrelevant and should be removed.

It's worth noting that Chekhov was primarily a dramatist and a short story writer and in those media, especially as a playwright, you really don't include anything that doesn't forward the story (since you generally only write plot-relevant description).

Novels are completely different; setting the stage is done in text, not by a set designer, so there's some element of feel and atmosphere that must be communicated there.

That doesn't mean that Martin doesn't follow basic narrative structure. He's not going to leave major elements of a character's storyline completely unaddressed. That's not to say that the Stannis comment is definitively a smoking gun; it could be, but I'd never call an author on not following up on something that could just be a turn of phrase.

That said, the fact that Jojen knows the day he dies is something that must be addressed in some manner. It may not be exactly the way people expect (Martin continually likes to reveal things in a subtle manner or in a way that certain characters never realize but the reader does -- I think he does not like how in books things are always explained where in life we often never finds things out). But he's not going to talk about Jojen's death repeatedly and not have it play a role.

Perhaps that is Jojen paste, perhaps not. In both scenarios it could satisfy.

But there's nothing in the text that says we need to see Jojen's death first-hand, either.

[Roose on the Loose]

GRRM won't leave any plot threads hanging just because he is set on finishing the series in seven books. If he needs more space to finish the story, he'll write more books.

You may be right. According to the best actuarial tables, GRRM should live another 17 years give or take. He's currently 65. If he's close on WoW, He could well publish 4 more books.

[stateofdissipation]

GRRM doesn't adhere to Chekhov's Gun AT ALL! The guy just keeps writing and by the end I think we'll see that much of it was completely pointless to the overall story.

Anybody that tells a story that is read.... adheres to chekhov's gun.

Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there.---Chekhov

There are five main elements of a story: setting, plot, characters, conflict and theme.... everything in a Song of Ice and Fire is relevant to at least one element of the story. If you would be kind enough to cite something you believe is completely pointless... I would be happy to point out the element of the story that it is relevant to....

Setting and theme... will most likely be the answer

[King Behind The Wall]

The theory says that EVERYTHING that is mentioned is relevant in some way. There are many many things GRRM has mentioned that is completely irrelevant including details of random knights and houses that has zippo to do with the story other than world building. The Chekhov's Gun theory would say all that is irrelevant and should be removed.

Info dumps on various houses is one thing. Not every house has to be important by the end, but it just helps adding more detail to the world. But building intrigue around someone like Jojen and then getting rid of him without any payoff is indeed against chekhov's gun. If the show is anything to go by, we are done with Jojen.

[too hot to handle]

In one of his panel interviews at san diego comicon GRRM says he is a geek for heraldry which is why his books have so much of that.

[stateofdissipation]

In one of his panel interviews at san diego comicon GRRM says he is a geek for heraldry which is why his books have so much of that.

that does do quite a bit for the setting of the story and certainly is part of theme and some conflict... it is relevant just not always to plot or character o

[Sodd]

I've never bought into the Jojen paste theory, and I'm wondering if Chekhov's Gun could be used to persuade others. I feel as though Jojen mentions his own death more than once. The quote being, "This is not the day I die." (I hope I'm not confusing the show with the book). GRRM has made a point to have Jojen mention the day he dies several times, and I can't help but feel as though Jojen's death will be told first hand, that we'll see it happen through someone's eyes in real time. It feels as though GRRM has built up to Jojen's death, so I just can't imagine it being anti-climactic and leaving us guessing whether he's actually dead or not.

Thoughts?

If the paste theory is correct, it surely will be revealed in a later chapter, so we will get more information on it.

Most likely it will be pointed out that Jojen did not object, he went to the sacrifice ceremony willingly, just because he had seen, that this will be the way he dies and already accepted it.

So the several mentions of him seeing when and how he will die was included with a reason, fullfilling the rule set by Chekov's gun.

[Syrio.Forel]

When GRRM started this project, he thought 3 fat books would be enough text to tell the whole story. After 5 such books, the number of loose ends is growing, not shrinking. To wrap it up in 7, he's gonna have to prune some hedges.

So, I expect many details that were supposed to tie back in with the larger story will dangle forever just because all things must end.

This.... is what I'm afraid of....

[DMC]

Anybody that tells a story that is read.... adheres to chekhov's gun.

Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there.---Chekhov

There are five main elements of a story: setting, plot, characters, conflict and theme.... everything in a Song of Ice and Fire is relevant to at least one element of the story. If you would be kind enough to cite something you believe is completely pointless... I would be happy to point out the element of the story that it is relevant to....

Setting and theme... will most likely be the answer

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can't help but say that is tautological. In essence, by defining Chekhov's gun in such a way, it eliminates any descriptive value of the term. To explain everything is to explain nothing. As others have pointed out, Chekhov was primarily referring to playwrights, thus it is most useful for that profession and perhaps screenwriters in terms of establishing mise en scene. I sincerely doubt Martin is considering the famed gun while finishing his opus, and if you view the term as something that is ultimately necessary to the plot, he has certainly broken the rule. That shouldn't be a bad thing though - considering the deviations are focused on explicating his world we all can't get enough of, I'm satisfied. But to get back to the OP's point, I think in terms of the narrative Jojen's prophecy does warrant some type of resolution. Whether that is Chekhov’s gun or not is, quite clearly, based on your own interpretation of the term.

[The Bedding]

Jojen falls into a resigned depression, wanting to go home to Greywater Watch. Meera implies while speaking with Bran that Jojen has had a greendream of his fate when he goes to Greywater Watch, and that the outcome is not good.^[17]

So Bran does end up leaving the cave after all. Bran goes to Greywater Watch and takes a dump. And "outcomes" Jojen. Definitely not good.